What are "vitals"

[Edsel]

How do you define the hit location "vitals" in your game?

 

There seems to be a generally held view that the vitals equal the groin. But I can find no basis for this in the rules. Perhaps someone can point out where in the rules vitals are defined?

 

Personally I have always felt that saying the vitals is the groin is rather silly. As long as I have been playing Hero System / Champions (early 1980s) my groups have always defined vitals to be more than just the groin. The "chest" is any part of the upper trunk of the body except for vital organs (for instance, the heart). The "stomach" is any part of the abdomen except for the major arteries and or other areas likely to cause a greatly increased chance of fatal wounds. Thus we have always defined the "vitals" to be a area from the heart down through the central torso and abdomen where vital organs are located (including the groin). In our game a vitals hit is generally considered to be a heart hit.

 

How do others define the vitals?

[The Monster]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

In our group, the first reaction - tounge-in-cheek - is the groin shot.

Your description is pretty good, however. In Deadlands, a similar hit location array includes the labels "Upper Guts" and "Lower Guts," which probably captures the general sense quite nicely. I think if I had to draw lines, I'd put Stomach at about the bottom of the rib cage down about halfway to the groin (i.e., abour the location of the actual stomach), then below that is Vitals - genitalia, yes, but also intestines, lower spine, and a few other oddities that are really dangerous if messed up.

 

I'm not a doctor, but I played one in an RPG once!

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Um, duh.

 

The vitals are "The 13." As in, "I got hit in the thirteen! It hurts!" What'd you think it was?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

In our group, the first reaction - tounge-in-cheek - is the groin shot.

Your description is pretty good, however. In Deadlands, a similar hit location array includes the labels "Upper Guts" and "Lower Guts," which probably captures the general sense quite nicely. I think if I had to draw lines, I'd put Stomach at about the bottom of the rib cage down about halfway to the groin (i.e., abour the location of the actual stomach), then below that is Vitals - genitalia, yes, but also intestines, lower spine, and a few other oddities that are really dangerous if messed up.

 

I'm not a doctor, but I played one in an RPG once!

 

That's about how I call it. The 13 can be the groin, but could also be in the intestines and the like.

[Comic]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

There's a certain squeamishness level involved in the answer, and always cultural considerations.

 

Some cultures, of course, don't have a 13.

 

In others, it's impossible to hit the 13, visibly.

 

Some alien species have variations on 13.

 

Some characters with certain psychological limitations like overconfidence confuse their 5 with their 13. Imagine the look of disappointment when their fellow player looks over and says, "You call that a 13? And I let you teach me combat driving?! No wonder I can't parallel park!"

[The Monster]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

There's a certain squeamishness level involved in the answer, and always cultural considerations.

 

Some cultures, of course, don't have a 13.

 

In others, it's impossible to hit the 13, visibly.

 

Some alien species have variations on 13.

 

Some characters with certain psychological limitations like overconfidence confuse their 5 with their 13. Imagine the look of disappointment when their fellow player looks over and says, "You call that a 13? And I let you teach me combat driving?! No wonder I can't parallel park!"

 

Very true! The Roman Empire, for example, did not have 13s. They had a pre-gunpowder version, the XIII. It still hurt to be hit there, though. A lot.

[nexus]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I believe it's supposed to be the groin officially. I consider them to be "vital areas" on the torso/lower body. It doesn't click totally with sectional armor but I don't use that system much. It's easier for me to suspend disbelief a little than to tell a player "Your character just took significant Body to the Vitals and is now a eunuch/neuter."

[Captain Obvious]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

In an illustrated "Three Musketeers" my grandma sent me when I was a kid, someone gets stabbed in the "vitals" and it is clearly not the jiggly bits, so I've never considered a "vitals" hit to only include the genitals, especially given how often you hear of eunuchs in primitive societies, or people who had their junk shot off in Nam and lived. While some attacks are clearly meant to be a groin shot (Nerve Strike, targets Vitals) not every hit location 13 is.

 

If you're wearing sectional armor, though, and the guy has on a steel breastplate and linen breeches, and a player rolls a 13 on hit location, that guy ain't getting the armor benefits a heart shot would bring.

[nexus]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

In an illustrated "Three Musketeers" my grandma sent me when I was a kid, someone gets stabbed in the "vitals" and it is clearly not the jiggly bits, so I've never considered a "vitals" hit to only include the genitals, especially given how often you hear of eunuchs in primitive societies, or people who had their junk shot off in Nam and lived. While some attacks are clearly meant to be a groin shot (Nerve Strike, targets Vitals) not every hit location 13 is.

 

If you're wearing sectional armor, though, and the guy has on a steel breastplate and linen breeches, and a player rolls a 13 on hit location, that guy ain't getting the armor benefits a heart shot would bring.

 

Makes sense, narratively the attacker could have "found a chink in his armor" nicked an artery or some other bit of random bad luck for the target.

[Vanguard]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

That's pretty much the way we do it as well.

 

"The Vitals" can be any vital internal organ but we usually refer to it as the groin mainly because we get such a large kick out of it.

 

But it's pretty well known in our group that "the vitals" is just that. It could represent a shot to the kidneys, nicking the heart with your dagger, etc.

[nexus]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

 

"The Vitals" can be any vital internal organ but we usually refer to it as the groin mainly because we get such a large kick out of it.

 

*rimshot*

 

[Bloodstone]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Officially it's the groin per UMA.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

5ER page 415 Vitals is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, heart, large artery, or many other areas.

 

So Mr Chest Plate hit in the vitals obviously just got nicked in an artery somewhere, perhaps the thigh.

 

The problem arises when people look at the Hit Location Chart it makes a fairly logical progression from top to bottom on the body (head down to toes) with the Vitals location stuck between "Stomach" and "Thigh" and people tend to put Stomach as "Lower Abdomen Above The Waistline" and Thigh as "Upper legs below the leg joint" leaving a few inches of body uncovered by the Hit Location Chart - so obviously the "groin and large intestinal area" are the Vitals in most gamers minds.

 

Personally, I like the rulesbooks concept.

[ghost-angel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Officially it's the groin per UMA.

 

Got a page reference because I couldn't find it saying that at all.

[mallet]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Yah, I consider "Vitals" to be a hit to any of the Groin, Liver, Kidney, Spleen, etc...

[nexus]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

5ER page 415 Vitals is defined as any particularly delicate or vulnerable area on the body; this can include the groin, heart, large artery, or many other areas.

 

So Mr Chest Plate hit in the vitals obviously just got nicked in an artery somewhere, perhaps the thigh.

 

The problem arises when people look at the Hit Location Chart it makes a fairly logical progression from top to bottom on the body (head down to toes) with the Vitals location stuck between "Stomach" and "Thigh" and people tend to put Stomach as "Lower Abdomen Above The Waistline" and Thigh as "Upper legs below the leg joint" leaving a few inches of body uncovered by the Hit Location Chart - so obviously the "groin and large intestinal area" are the Vitals in most gamers minds.

 

Personally, I like the rulesbooks concept.

 

An idea off the the top of my head. Roll "Hit Location" twice. Once to determine the damage modifier, the second time to determine the actual hit location for purposes of sectional armor, wounds and description. If that adds too much to the already hours long () Hero combat resolution system used the To hit roll as the "actual location" roll? (possibly allowing that to adjusted by how much the attacker beat the defenders DCV. I'm not sure about that part or how it would effect deliberately targeting specific locations.

[Pental]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I think we've always considered the 13 area to be anything around the area of the pelvis, not necessarily just the genital region.

 

Reminds me of this kid in our ER a few years ago who'd customized his BMX bike with some pipes on the back axle. Fell off, fell straight down and severed his femoral artery. Thankfully they life-flighted him to Metro and he didn't die.

That's a shot to his 13 that he's going to remember for the rest of his life.

[Lucius]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Got a page reference because I couldn't find it saying that at all.

 

That's what I was thinking. I certainly don't remember anything like that in Ultimate Martial Artist.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Still designing a hit location chart for the palindromedary

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I think we've always considered the 13 area to be anything around the area of the pelvis, not necessarily just the genital region.

 

Reminds me of this kid in our ER a few years ago who'd customized his BMX bike with some pipes on the back axle. Fell off, fell straight down and severed his femoral artery. Thankfully they life-flighted him to Metro and he didn't die.

That's a shot to his 13 that he's going to remember for the rest of his life.

 

This is actually a really good point; the thirteen can easily represent that rare "lucky hit" that just does colossal damage, like the rare puncture to the femoral artery, a hiccup as a piece of armor skips upwards and jams into the throat, a nasty shot into an unprotected arm pit.

 

Any "vital area" or wicked lucky shot could qualify without going into the gruesome details.

[Ternaugh]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

A quick search on the UMA PDF turns up a lot of references to low blows targeting the vitals, and the Full Contact Karate Armor specifically states that an athletic cup protects Hit Location 13 (p. 186).

 

JoeG

[ghost-angel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

A quick search on the UMA PDF turns up a lot of references to low blows targeting the vitals, and the Full Contact Karate Armor specifically states that an athletic cup protects Hit Location 13 (p. 186).

 

JoeG

 

Bizarre. I'll ignore it.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Bizarre. I'll ignore it.

 

I like mine better anyway.

[Ternaugh]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I like mine better anyway.

 

I would agree. Yours is much better for the roleplaying aspects.

 

JoeG

[ghost-angel]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

I like mine better anyway.

 

Yours is essentially the rules,

 

So you like Steve's better

[Thia Halmades]

Re: What are "vitals"

 

Yours is essentially the rules,

 

So you like Steve's better

 

A rare moment of disagreement; I always interpreted the core rules to describe "hard & fast" locations, so a 'jock strap' or similar device would cover "the 13." I think mine is a lot more open. However, other than Joe's reference, I haven't seen hard evidence one way or another.