gewing Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 interesting http://www.defesabr.com/Tecno/SAe/tecno_sub_aerodromo.htm I was referred to it by the good folks at Tanknet, as usual! http://63.99.108.76/forums/index.php?showtopic=23659&st=0entry527813 would also work for classic Champions supers, of course... I think I found the base for a couple characters I was thinking about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverbullet Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Sweet! This is so going in my game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 4, 2008 Report Share Posted January 4, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) submarines were the largest submarines in the world until the advent of nuclear propulsion. This size meant many classes included a hangar to carry a seaplane. For example the B1 Class, which was the most numerous class of IJN subs (20 built), all carried a E14Y1 "Glen" seaplane in a hangar forward of the conning tower. At 2,584 tons, it was the size of a large destroyer - by comparison, the USN Gato class was 1,500 tons and the German Type VIc U-boat (the major participant in the Battle of the Atlantic) a mere 769 tons. I-29 (which I've done a lot of research on, and written an article on for a wargame magazine) had a war that was stranger than fiction: - Her first mission after commissioning in February 1942 was to support the attempted invasion of Port Moresby in April-May 1942 which resulted in the Battle of the Coral Sea. She had barely left port when the Doolittle raiders bombed Tokyo and she was temporarily diverted to search for the strike force. - When the invasion of Port Moresby was abandoned, she continued south to a position of Sydney, Australia, while the rest of the flotilla went to Truk to pick up midget submaries. - I-29 launched her "Glen" to perform a recon of Newcastle and Sydney harbors. Damaged on landing and unable to fly again, I-29's plane performed the final recon before the midget sub attack on Sydney Harbor on May 30-June 1 1942. - I-29 then performed a number of standard commerce-raiding patrols in the Indian Ocean and Arabian Gulf over the next six months, sinking 6 ships. The IJN employed their subs primarily against warships rather than merchant traffic, so these patrols accounted for 3% of the merchant ships sunk by the IJN troughout the entire war. - In April 1943, I-29 went cloak-and-dagger, one of the members of the B1 class that were pressed into service as cargo carriers, moving strategic supplies between the Far East and Germany. She embarked 11 tons of cargo (including 2 tons of gold), plans and blueprints for the carrier Akagi and a Type A midget submarine, and two passengers (one of whom was making the return trip on U-234 when the German surrender came into force. The U-boat surrendered and the Japanese passengers commited suicide. The U-234 was allegedly carrying Uranium-235 to Japan). I-29 then sailed to the Mozambique Channel and rendezvoused with U-180. In heavy seas, sailing in daylight with their torpedo loading hatches open, the two submarines transfer their respective cargo and passengers. From U-180 comes Subhash Chandra Bose, former president of the Indian National Congress and political rival of Ghandi. He had escaped from British custody in India in early 1941 and travelled through Afghanistan to Russia and thence via Italy to Germany, seeking support for a popular uprising in India. He didn't receive it, but did help raise the Azad Hind Legion, a 4500-strong Army unit comprosed of Indian ex-PoWs. I-29 took him to Sabang (rather than back to Penang) to avoid observation by Britush spies. Bose was then flown to Tokyo and an audience with Hirohito. Bose then formed the co-belligerent Indian National Army along the same lines as the Azad Hind Legion, but much larger, and also lead an Indian "government-in-exile" recognised by all Axis governments. Bose allegedly died in a plane crash in Taiwan in August 1945, although some believe this was a deception to cover his actual escape to the USSR. - Back to I-29: after another regular war patrol and a long repair and refit period, she receives a new commander, Cdr Kinashi Takakazu, formerly captain of I-19. I-19 had also had an interesting war, being part of the patrols around Pearl Harbor on 7 December 1941, then sailing to California, up to the Aleutian Islands, back to Japan, and finally to the Solomons where I-19 sunk the USS Wasp. This mission was more mundane, taking over 200 tons of cargo and 11 passengers to occupied France. Leaving Singapore in December 1943, she reached the Bay of Biscay in March 1944. As arranged by coded signal, the Germans arranged an escort to meet them - four destroyers, including a Dutch destroyer captured in 1940, and an aerial escort of Ju88 long-range fighters. Unfortunately, the code used was a variation of the Enigma which the British had broken, so the RAF aranged a greeting too - six Mosquitos, including two of the "Tsetse" variant armed with an auto-loading 57mm gun. I-29 escaped unscathed, but one Ju88 was shot down, allegedly by a single 57mm shot. I-29 also escapes further attacks by Beaufighters and Liberators and arrives safely at Lorient. - While their boat is overhauled, the crew travel to Paris, while their captain, Kinashi, goes to Berlin and receives the Iron Cross (2nd Class) from Adolf Hitler as reward for sinking the Wasp. - In April 1944 the return journey begins. Included in her cargo are blueprints for the Me 163 interceptor and Me 262 fighter, as well as examples of their respective powerplants, a V-1 “buzz-bomb”, plans for a glider bomb and for radar, radar detecting and radar jamming equipment. In a final irony, twenty "Enigma" coding machines, intended for use in Japanese-German Naval communication, are included in the cargo. She also carries 18 passengers. Her return journey is uneventful, and she arrives in Singapore on 14 July 1944. Her passengers disembark and travel onwards to Tokyo by plane, taking with them some of the plans and technical documents. These will be used to produce a copy of the Me163 (the J8M Shusui). - I-29 transmits her itinerary to Tokyo. The Allies intercept and decode the message and set a trap for her. On 22 July 1944, she is sighted running on the surface by USS Sawfish who fires four torpedoes at her. Three strike home and the I-29 sinks immediately, with only one survivor. The survivor confirmed the ship sunk instantly and took the Enigma machines with her, and the Axis continued to believe their codes remained secure. So, there you go. Japanese, Nazis, spies, political intrigue, secret codes, planes carrying honking big guns, and a link to the alleged Japanese A-bomb program. Lots of pulpy goodness, and it's all true!! Also, the IJN had a plan to send four I-400 class subs to launch an attack on the Panama canal. Each could carry two or three M6A Seiran attack aircraft, launched by catapult. They were to cross the Indian and South Atlantic oceans and attack from the east. Ten planes (six with torpedoes, four with bombs) would destroy the canal locks, rendering the canal unusable. In the event only three I-400 were completed and the plan was abandoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 5, 2008 Report Share Posted January 5, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Good to see a picture of the British M class seaplane carrier sub (derived from the ill fated, steam powered "K" Class boats that just missed world war I). Another "submarine seaplane tender" that appears to have been missed in that article is the magnificent French "Submarine Cruiser" "Surcouf"(4304 tons full displacement, 2-8" guns, 1 seaplane,8-21.7"(550mm) and 4-15.7"(400mm) torpedo tubes, diving depth of 44 fathoms (80 metres or 264 ft), speed 181/2 knots (surface)/10 knots (submerged) crew of 118) Lost after being rammed by a merchantman in the Gulf Of Mexico in 1942. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Actually, K-boats did "fight" in WWI. Turns out that vessels designed for low-observability surface operation don't exactly mesh with fleets of 40+ battleships, and it gets worse when it takes 20 minutes to submerge. There's an interesting study of the naval architecture of very large conventional submarines published in the interwar Transactions of the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers (I'll admit that as a citation that's a little light, but to do better I'd have to walk all the way across the apartment and fire up the work computer, and then I'd have practically nothing left of my day off!) oh, yes, my point: abstract: "Youse guys are insane. These boats will capsize more often than they submerge." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thia Halmades Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! *head explodes with new campaign & setting concepts* Kthx. Have to clean off the windows now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! The I-400s were actually a pretty impressive engineering achievement for the IJN--400 feet long, a couple 5.5 inch guns, some 25mm AA, the usual torps, 3 armed seaplanes, and world class cruising range. If they had actually damaged the locks on the Panama Canal, at a critical time, it might have prolonged the war a few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Just the word "SSNCV" in the page linked at the top of the thread makes me boggle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st barbara Posted January 8, 2008 Report Share Posted January 8, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Actually, K-boats did "fight" in WWI. Turns out that vessels designed for low-observability surface operation don't exactly mesh with fleets of 40+ battleships, and it gets worse when it takes 20 minutes to submerge. There's an interesting study of the naval architecture of very large conventional submarines published in the interwar Transactions of the Society of Naval Architects and Marine Engineers (I'll admit that as a citation that's a little light, but to do better I'd have to walk all the way across the apartment and fire up the work computer, and then I'd have practically nothing left of my day off!) oh, yes, my point: abstract: "Youse guys are insane. These boats will capsize more often than they submerge." Are you referring to ths infamous "Battle of May Island" ? Yes well the "K" boats DID show a remarkable ability to get in the way (of each other, and their escorts) in that litle incident ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! And don't forget the Skydiver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Monster Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Just the word "SSNCV" in the page linked at the top of the thread makes me boggle. Wow. SSNCV. Looks great, though - the perfect weapon to counter those flying aircraft carriers from Sky Captain. (Just to be OOC, though, one wonders if this concept is being seriously explored today with RPVs?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! And don't forget the Skydiver. lol over Only one torpedo was ever seen fired in anger, in a manner strangely reminiscent of stock footage from a conventional submarine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proditor Posted January 9, 2008 Report Share Posted January 9, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Somewhere I have an HDC of the Surcouf as refitted by US yards...it used to be linked here, but I obviously took it down a while back. The Surcouf was more of an artillery platform, but it did carry a spotter plane. Now take the concept of the battle-sub and add the carrier-sub, and you get a nice mini-fleet of scary awesomesauce. I'll have to dig up the hdc file again, but in the meantime, I have some nice sub pics here: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/champsstuff/sea/sea.htm Including the Surcouf, and the always nifty Seaview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Oddly enough, I was surfing Wikipedia yesterday, reading about WWII surface warships. Nothing as unusual as SSNCVs, but these could at least be used in the background of certain pulp campaigns: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_battleship_Richelieu_%281939%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Bart_%281940%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regia_Marina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Roma_%281940%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_class_battleship_%281939%29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yansuf Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Just the word "SSNCV" in the page linked at the top of the thread makes me boggle. Actually, it would be SSVN, or possibly SVN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Actually' date=' it would be SSVN, or possibly SVN.[/quote'] That's right--C is for "Cruiser", right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air Pirate Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! How about a 1930s flying submarine? . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proditor Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! That's right--C is for "Cruiser"' date=' right?[/quote'] Yes and no. C is for cruiser, and it's also for carrier. CVN Nuclear Powered Aircraft Carrier CV Aircraft Carrier CGN Nuclear Power Guided Missile Cruiser CG Guided Missile Cruiser DDG Guided Missile Destroyer DD Destroyer FFG Guided Missile Frigate FF Frigate SSBN Nuclear Powered Ballistic Missile Submarine SSN Nuclear Powered Submarine More (MUCH more) here: http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/usa/designat.htm Now what would a Nuclear powered submersible aircraft carrier be designated? I don't know, but when they were going to make the Phase II modification to the Iowas, they were bandying about BBCV as a designation. It had some precendent in the Hyuga and Ise which had been converted from Battleships, to battleship/carrier hybrids. Logically, SSCVN would make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted January 11, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! How about a 1930s flying submarine? . I don't read Russian, but from looking at it, take off the silly conning tower and make it a floatplane bomber, and it might be pretty good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Now a submersible ekranoplan would kick butt in 3 dimensions:D Throw in a drill in front, inflatable hoverskirts, and some kind of optional booster rockets, and you're all set! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Love the submaplane! When I first started following this thread I was reminded of a book I once had, but lost in a move before I could read it. The cover featured a large submarine with two streamlined turrets. It was supposed to be the (never built) sister ship of the Surcouf. More about the Sufrcouf: History Plans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proditor Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Love the submaplane! When I first started following this thread I was reminded of a book I once had, but lost in a move before I could read it. The cover featured a large submarine with two streamlined turrets. It was supposed to be the (never built) sister ship of the Surcouf. More about the Sufrcouf: History Plans Any chance you could pass along the name of that book? I have a weakness for the Surcouf, and a sister ship peeks my interest. Also, if anyone wants to see an interesting and incredibly over the top take on the gun sub, check out "Lorelei the Witch of the Pacific Ocean". http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kamikaze/films/japanese/lorelei/index.htm http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0406941/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSgt Baloo Posted January 14, 2008 Report Share Posted January 14, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! Any chance you could pass along the name of that book? I have a weakness for the Surcouf, and a sister ship peeks my interest. Also, if anyone wants to see an interesting and incredibly over the top take on the gun sub, check out "Lorelei the Witch of the Pacific Ocean". http://wgordon.web.wesleyan.edu/kamikaze/films/japanese/lorelei/index.htm http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0406941/ It's in the Wiki article referenced above: Surcouf in Fiction Douglas Reeman's novel "Strike From the Sea", published in 1978, features a fictional sister ship of the Surcouf, named Soufriere [1]. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Air Pirate Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Re: Submarine Aircraft carriers of the world! How about a 1930s flying submarine? Huh, looks like someone made about this. It's amazing the things you find, especially when you're NOT looking for them. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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