What gives the "rightful" king the right?

[Vondy]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Here's another one: in E. Africa there is a tribe that selects its kings as follows: the kings youngest sister's oldest son is the heir to the throne. Its good to be the king's nephew...

[Lucius]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Here's another one: in E. Africa there is a tribe that selects its kings as follows: the kings youngest sister's oldest son is the heir to the throne. Its good to be the king's nephew...

 

That's matrilineal descent with patriarchal rule; that is, only males are kings, but kingship passes in the female line rather than the male. But that bit about the YOUNGEST sister bearing the heir is wrinkle I hadn't heard of before.

 

One reason for the appeal of the system is obvious; I know my mother's daughter is my sister and I know her son is actually my nephew. If my title and position pass to my own son - that is, the son of my wife, presumed to be my son - there's at least a chance my heir is not even biologically related to me.

 

Perhaps the point of making it the youngest sister's son is that this makes for younger kings at coronation and thus longer, more stable reigns?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Trying longer reins on the palindromedary

[Old Man]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

That only works up to a point. When a king was too young it always brought up lineage and regency issues that more often than not resulted in chaos.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

That only works up to a point. When a king was too young it always brought up lineage and regency issues that more often than not resulted in chaos.

 

Not to mention that if mom was fertile long into life, your youngest sister might not even be of birthin' age when you kick off.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

And 'rightful' is often mucked about with generations after the fact. Henry V claimed the throne of France because of salic (matrilineal) descent issues, claiming to be 'more rightful' than his concurrent 'cousin'. Unless the conqueror wipes out the entire family -- blood cousins, cousins-by-marriage, etc -- you won't generally get the whole 'rightful king' issues bled out for generations.

 

For my money, the best example in fiction of this is the Camber of Culdi/King Kelson trilogies; much like medieval Europe, just a lot less confusing. As for Song of Ice/Fire, remember that they were ALL independent kings before the dragon-riding Targaeryans came and wiped the floor with 'em; they all have legitimate claims to a throne, just not the overarching throne of Westeros. And with Robert Barratheon dead, well, it's sort of up for grabs. Would've been better if Ed Stark had taken it in the first place -- and lopped off the Kingslayer's head while he was at it ...

[Markdoc]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Would've been better if Ed Stark had taken it in the first place -- and lopped off the Kingslayer's head while he was at it ...

 

I think that's one of the messages of that series - playing by the rules does not, in fact, always make for happy endings.

 

As a matter of interest, who do you see on the iron throne in the end? Bran Stark? Tyrion? Jon Snow? Daenerys Targaryen? Or someone else?

 

cheers, Mark

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Me? Daenerys, hands down. The ones in the south (can't remember the family name) are already searching her out to support her, while the Salt kings (the viking sorts) are trying to hunt her and her dragons down to try and control them. (Not likely, since none of them are immune to the flame damage of the horn they have.) So basically, eventually, once she has destroyed the latter and accepted the former, she'll head back, whelm the ice-wights with massive wonderful dragonflame (and lots of people wielding obsidian weapons), and reclaim the iron throne.

[Manic Typist]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Winter is coming!

 

To be honest, Tyrion is the only Lannister that can safely be allowed to live. Jaime has some very nice depth, but the only one I like as a PERSON (and not simply a character) is Tyrion.

[Markdoc]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Me? Daenerys' date=' hands down. The ones in the south (can't remember the family name) are already searching her out to support her, while the Salt kings (the viking sorts) are trying to hunt her and her dragons down to try and control them. (Not likely, since none of them are immune to the flame damage of the horn they have.) So basically, eventually, once she has destroyed the latter and accepted the former, she'll head back, whelm the ice-wights with massive wonderful dragonflame (and lots of people wielding obsidian weapons), and reclaim the iron throne.[/quote']

 

I see the first part happening, for sure. Will she survive the inevitable intrigue, though?

 

cheers, Mark

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

I see the first part happening' date=' for sure. Will she survive the inevitable intrigue, though?[/quote']

 

When the families have a choice between 'be nice or get roasted', I think so. Much of the major high-level intrigue is Lannister-based. If she gets Tyrion (whom I like as well) on her side, then she'll kick all sorts of ass.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

If some rebel upstart marches on the capital' date=' beats up the existing army, puts the old king's head on a pike outside the castle gates and gets comfy on the throne, doesn't that give him a good claim to be the "rightful" ruler now? [/quote']

Historically Yes, however the Aristocracy/Gentiles/Nobles would join forces to protect their rule over the Common Men. If it happened to often the Nobles would soon face rebellions and lose their power, position, and their very lives.

 

I guess you could argue that the "right" to rule belongs to the person with the most/best soldiers willing to follow him' date=' or something. [/quote']

Might makes right as long as you got the power to back it up. Marrying into Royalty was a very common method as well. Kidnap, force marriage, and then you become heir. It you kill the King you become King.

 

 

Very complex stuff this... eh?

 

 

QM

[Clonus]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

 

I guess you could argue that the "right" to rule belongs to the person with the most/best soldiers willing to follow him, or something.

 

But that defeats the point of thinking in terms of a "right" to rule which is to come up with a system by which you do not have to have a civil war to decide who is in charge. Legitimacy of succession is created by having everyone expect you to be in charge before you are. The man who carves his way to the blood-stained throne through force of arms neither has, nor needs the "right" to rule. His son and grandson do need the "right" to rule to avoid having to fight another war and other people need him to have that right to avoid the same way. Since they accept the principle of "inheritance" at a lower level, it makes sense to them to pass down the realm like any other bit of property.

 

This system of course only works once people have gotten into the habit of thinking that the country belongs to the current dynasty, which usually takes a couple of generations and only as long as the current ruler is not so repulsive that people can't put up with them, and the question of who is the most entitled inheritor under the rules of succession isn't murky.

[The Weapon]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

But that defeats the point of thinking in terms of a "right" to rule which is to come up with a system by which you do not have to have a civil war to decide who is in charge. Legitimacy of succession is created by having everyone expect you to be in charge before you are. The man who carves his way to the blood-stained throne through force of arms neither has, nor needs the "right" to rule. His son and grandson do need the "right" to rule to avoid having to fight another war and other people need him to have that right to avoid the same way. Since they accept the principle of "inheritance" at a lower level, it makes sense to them to pass down the realm like any other bit of property.

 

This system of course only works once people have gotten into the habit of thinking that the country belongs to the current dynasty, which usually takes a couple of generations and only as long as the current ruler is not so repulsive that people can't put up with them, and the question of who is the most entitled inheritor under the rules of succession isn't murky.

 

Of course if you marry the daughter of the man you desposed your son probably is the legitimate king either way. She might be a little reluctant after what you did to dad, but sometimes women can be... persuaded to be pragmatic. From memory the japanese film "Ran", based on King Lear had a wife to one man who still hated him years after she married him because of exactly this.

[Inu]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

And 'rightful' is often mucked about with generations after the fact. Henry V claimed the throne of France because of salic (matrilineal) descent issues, claiming to be 'more rightful' than his concurrent 'cousin'. Unless the conqueror wipes out the entire family -- blood cousins, cousins-by-marriage, etc -- you won't generally get the whole 'rightful king' issues bled out for generations.

 

For my money, the best example in fiction of this is the Camber of Culdi/King Kelson trilogies; much like medieval Europe, just a lot less confusing. As for Song of Ice/Fire, remember that they were ALL independent kings before the dragon-riding Targaeryans came and wiped the floor with 'em; they all have legitimate claims to a throne, just not the overarching throne of Westeros. And with Robert Barratheon dead, well, it's sort of up for grabs. Would've been better if Ed Stark had taken it in the first place -- and lopped off the Kingslayer's head while he was at it ...

There are still doubts about the English Monarchy's legitimacy, based on Henry VII's highly-questionable claim to the throne. According to certain research, the true British royals are currently living in outback Australia.

[Inu]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

I see the first part happening, for sure. Will she survive the inevitable intrigue, though?

 

cheers, Mark

It works for the first Targaryens, no reason it can't again.

[Lucius]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

There are still doubts about the English Monarchy's legitimacy' date=' based on Henry VII's highly-questionable claim to the throne. According to certain research, the true British royals are currently living in outback Australia.[/quote']

 

Out of curiosity, not doubt, I ask, do you have a citation?

 

I thought the current true British royal was Franz, Duke of Bavaria?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if there's a "leftful" king and what gives him the left?

[Curufea]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Out of curiosity, not doubt, I ask, do you have a citation?

 

I thought the current true British royal was Franz, Duke of Bavaria?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if there's a "leftful" king and what gives him the left?

There was a docu done by Tony "Baldric" Robinson on the legitimacy of Edward the second, I believe.

[L. Marcus]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

I'm in the middle of Tom Holland's Persian Fire, about the Greco-Persian wars. The part on how Dareios got to be king is of interest for this thread indeed.

[Inu]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Out of curiosity, not doubt, I ask, do you have a citation?

 

I thought the current true British royal was Franz, Duke of Bavaria?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if there's a "leftful" king and what gives him the left?

A summary of the show can be found here.

 

It's a fun theory, at any rate. =)

[Inu]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

There was a docu done by Tony "Baldric" Robinson on the legitimacy of Edward the second' date=' I believe.[/quote']

That's the one. I love that guy!

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

I'm in the middle of Tom Holland's Persian Fire' date=' about the Greco-Persian wars. The part on how Dareios got to be king is of interest for this thread indeed. [/quote']

I found myself a little underwhelmed by Holland. Too much purty writin', too little research. In particular, Pierre Briant's attack on "Persian" history seems to have gone right over his head. We've known --since the beginning, really-- that Darius was widely believed to be a usurper, something he never explicitly contradicts. That said, there's reams and reams of careful work to be done and excavations to be dug before we can say that we understand what, exactly, happened.

[L. Marcus]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

It's good enough for gaming.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

It's good enough for gaming.

Great for gamers; less so for those who shape major policy decisions (notice how I am not bringing up Iraq here? I'm so restrained) on the basis of what they learned around the table.

[Curufea]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

Someone should mention Oliver Cromwell as well. And not just because I can't seem to get that damn Monty Python song out of my head

[Markdoc]

Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right?

 

I'm in the middle of Tom Holland's Persian Fire' date=' about the Greco-Persian wars. The part on how Dareios got to be king is of interest for this thread indeed. [/quote']

 

Great book! I really enjoyed getting some info on the other side of the story and recommend it. It's a good general read - apart from the retarded and apparently tacked-on introduction trying to sell it as some sort of culture-wars story.

 

cheers, Mark