Markdoc Posted January 16, 2008 Report Share Posted January 16, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? One final thing about royal ancestry: pre-Christian royal families often claimed divine ancestry. Some of these families continued into the Christian era. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the current Danish royal family couldn't trace their ancestry back to Odin! Nah, they trace their ancestry back to Gorm the old, died about 950 AD. For a long time, people assumed ol' Gorm was legendary, but - surprise, surprise - it turns out that a) he was real and they found his bones (or what was left of them) and his wife's under the floor of Jelling Church when it was being rebuilt, along with a runestone from their son, Harald Bluetooth (also King). Cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestnik Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? You can always take the Egyptian route and say that the King IS a god. Or people believe he is. Then he might have to do the nasty with his sister though. Pesky modern sensibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outsider Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? The Romans also did a bit of that (King/Emperor = deity), though they didn't seem to take it quite so seriously. What of the origin of kings (in europe) as the result of the takeover of the Roman Empire by Germanic tribes? Germanic tribes didnt have standing kings. Instead, at need, all the free men (or possibly just the fighting men) left their common trade (be it farmer, cooper, huntsman, whatever) and elected a war leader from likely candidates among specific clans. When the need had passed the office of war leader passed also, and the men of the tribe went back to their peacetime vocations. The change came when those tribes took over great chunks of the Roman Empire (including the chunk's existing economy) and needed to remain away from their peacetime vocations ( ie be on 'war footing') indefinitely in order to manage & control them. And so the leader remained in charge indefinitely too. Now all you need is to tack on office inheritance and a bit of divine sanction (both elements seen to a lesser or greater degree among Roman Emperors) and you're on your way to medieval kingship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? See, that's just what I have a problem with. So the OLD king took over by force of arms, doing so by the grace of God, and has therefore been ordained by God as the rightful ruler. I can accept that. Makes a sort of sense. Then if I come in and take over by force of arms, just like he did, kicking him to the curb, just like he did with guy HE defeated, God must have decided that it was time for new management and I'm now the rightful king, right? Right? Depends if you have a Pope on your side or not. Or some other kingmaker. "Acknowledge my claim as just and I'll let you live" was a pretty standard means of gaining a majority of support back in the day. Politics were a bit simpler then. Possibly more honest, too. Arr, where should I begin? First, politics and power games never changed because they are part of human nature. What changed is the cultural canevas on wich this nature is applied. This means holding power is mostly a rapport de force (sorry, don't know how to say this in english) thing; suppress your opponents one way or another and then find a way to legitimate it by the canevas. You know, in politics, pretexts are like a** h***, every body got one. The difficulty is more in finding a way to force the other rulers of the world to accept the new one as a part of their club. If one play well with the canevas and, more importantly,if one can make him irreplaceable or too strong for direct confrontation, one can go on with it. Let me say it again: power is a matter of strength equilibrium and people consent may only matter as a part of this equilibrium, no more. Of course, in a fantasy world, you can rule the gruesome realities of politics don't apply... But I prefer those universe with political realism, exactly like in A Song of Fire and Ice. We played a two year campaign based on this universe, first via D&D and then with the D20 system based directly on the novels wich is called A Game of Throne. It was really cool as we played typical good nobles, kind of legendary white knights, in a world of real nobles, kind of a political snake pit, and, well, our characters cried a lot... In fact, the typical story that tells that a well managed and happy kingdom comes with a legitimate king, for wich the Lion King is the perfect exemple, propably isn't nothing more than the integration of classical propaganda... Anyway, sorry for being so long and to be such a spoilsport, but I still have this Total Psychological Limitation: cannot resist debating over political... issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curufea Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? "Lion King" as in Richard the Lionheart (the more french-than-english king with a bit of a psychotic streak)? or as in the Disney movie about racial segregation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? The winner writes the history books (ok' date=' they get that right even if they are illiterate)[/quote'] If the winners are illiterate, then they hire out the actual mechanical writing bit, after giving them a skeleton of important points to be fleshed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? .... Germanic tribes didnt have standing kings. Instead, at need, all the free men (or possibly just the fighting men) left their common trade (be it farmer, cooper, huntsman, whatever) and elected a war leader from likely candidates among specific clans. When the need had passed the office of war leader passed also, and the men of the tribe went back to their peacetime vocations. The change came when those tribes took over great chunks of the Roman Empire (including the chunk's existing economy) and needed to remain away from their peacetime vocations ( ie be on 'war footing') indefinitely in order to manage & control them. And so the leader remained in charge indefinitely too. Everyone loves to trace things to origins, even 19th century German liberal historians. Hence this here myth of "primitive Germanic democracy." 'Tis better by far to trace things to the moment of debate. For the "divine right of kings," that moment is the 1590s--1600s, when the French were fighting a civil war over whether kings were elected by the Estates or whether the slightest drop of legitimate blood made one a king according to the laws of primogeniture. Meanwhile, the dominant view in London was that Elizabeth had the free right to choose a successor, Rome gave that right to "the people," and Edinburgh argued that Elizabeth could choose, but Henry VII could not. There's no right answer written into the nature of things. In a fantasy campaign the old "the king's health is the land's health" thing works perfectly well, but so does the "snakepit of conspiring interests." Depends on whether you want light tones or dark ones. If I were doing it I would go for both, starting with conspiracy and intrigue, but with the PCs discovering that it is as true as it is corny that only the rightful king can heal nature and defeat Deuse Baaj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? "Lion King" as in Richard the Lionheart (the more french-than-english king with a bit of a psychotic streak)? or as in the Disney movie about racial segregation? The second, wich is also about your ruler being legitimate if BNP is rising and evil if not. The movie then explains why Pinochet wasn't such a "bad" guy to western powers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Not to politicize the thread further, but as an American I am somewhat offended by concepts like "laws of primogeniture", "royal blood", "superior race", and anything else that suggests superiority by birth. So my idea of a "good guy" kingdom would require elections or at least some sort of commoner-based checks on a hereditary ruler's power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bygoneyrs Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? For a fantasy world, Birth Right is passed on! The only change in that is Might Make Right! Penn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Your world, your rules. That said, in a Fantasy setting with an interventionist G_d or gods, the Divine Right of Kings is exactly that. The Rightful King is whomsoever G_d has chosen, be he prince or assistant pig-keeper. In the real world, the Rightful King is the guy who can get people to agree that he's the Rightful King, traditionally through charm or chainsaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csyphrett Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? As an expansion on the discussion, Chris Stasheff's Her Majesty's Wizard was set up like this. The queen had the divine right to sit on the throne which conferred the ability to always be right on public decisions. CES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Germanic tribes didnt have standing kings. ... The change came when those tribes took over great chunks of the Roman Empire (including the chunk's existing economy) and needed to remain away from their peacetime vocations ( ie be on 'war footing') indefinitely in order to manage & control them. And so the leader remained in charge indefinitely too. Not quite. The changeover seems to have initially been associated more with contact with the Romans, rather than with the takeover of Roman territory. Having said that, of course it also appears to have taken place in areas well away from the Roman borders, such as amongst the Ostrogoths. Even they weren't totally out of contact with Rome, though, and were subjects of the Huns for quite a while. The original situation you describe is fairly well-attested though. It has been used for propaganda purposes by various people, but it still seems to have a reasonable basis in fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assault Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Democratic or republican states can exist in fantasy settings, obviously. In fact, they can have as much "divine right" as any other state. In many cases, they would have a state church, putting them under divine protection, and, in cases where the health of the land reflects the health of the king could also have figurehead kings. (Or sacrificial ones!) L. Sprague de Camp's "Unbeheaded King" series is worth mining for interesting governments. Studying the constitutions of the Roman Republic and other ancient Italian and Greek states is interesting too. (Carthage too.) Then there are medieval cities, whether independent or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Product Endorsement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psychoticbarber Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Okay, coming right from a Political Theory professor... Divine Right was a little later than the middle ages. There are a couple concepts you need to know for the middle ages kings: Delegation, Fealty and the Body Politic. Body Politic: The theory that a political system is like a body, and therefore requires a head (king) to function. You were born into a certain position (head vs., say, right small toenail), and you shouldn't really try to change that. Delegation: In theory, God did not choose kings directly, but rather gave a little bit of sovereignty to every person. However, as the body politic requires a head, it was necessary for the people to delegate their sovereignty to a single person. At one point in time, everybody got together and decided that they needed a king, and that so-and-so should be king. In return, the king you chose would swear an oath of fealty. In theory it was possible to take back the little bits of sovereignty you delegated, but practically this didn't do anything if you couldn't make it stick. Fealty: This is an oath made by the king to protect and shepherd the people, in return for their obedience and service. So that's it in a nutshell. It's kind of interesting, I think. Divine Right as a concept came about more towards the beginning of the Renaissance. Edit: So the answer the question in the post is: The people. Ideally. Theoretically. Usually it was the person with the power to make it stick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Name for me the seven principles of goverance. Attachment to the person of the monarch. Attachment to a bloodline or other sequence of succession. Attachment to the royal state. Attachment to a code legitimizing the governing state. Attachment to the law only. Attachment to a greater or lesser board of electors, as framers of the law. Attachment to an abstraction conceived as including the body of electors, other bodies giving rise to them, and numerous other elements, largely ideal.Lucius Alexander The palindromedary continues the quote The animal that rests beside you now would die for you. Of what kind is its attachment to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheQuestionMan Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Monarch http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch I liked how Mark Smyle, author of Artesia (http://www.daradja.com/artesia.php) In the Highlands, you are only King so long as you can keep it. In Artesia Afire she explains to the Nobles present how things are done in her homeland. I will post it later for anyone interested. Cheers QM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Let me see: the ability to administer High and Low Justice and decide criminal cases would be PS: Judge. One wonders what is the more important aspect of that for a king: getting the fair result or getting the result of greatest advantage to your keeping the throne (something seen in Shakespeare's Richard II that the title character proved spectacularly bad at' date=' along with just about everything else he tried).[/quote'] PS, or Perk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? Both, mayhap? A Perk for the right to make decisions, and a PS for to make the right decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCUBA Hero Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? . . . And the birthmark. The... the... the Purple Pimpernell? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? "Hooray, it's the Scarlet Pimpernel! And you killed him . . . " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? PS' date=' or Perk?[/quote'] Social Limitation. You're as imprisoned by your role as anyone else in the society. Maybe more so. PS if you're actually good at the job, various Disads if you're not, or you hate it. Lucius Alexander Looking at the palindromedary, and answering Malrubius....the first? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamamura Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? I didn't see this mentioned but I believe the rightful king is determined by a watery tart and a sword! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Obvious Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 Re: What gives the "rightful" king the right? I didn't see this mentioned but I believe the rightful king is determined by a watery tart and a sword! I thought it was a moistened bint lobbing scimitars... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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