Mental Defense for the Dead

[Cannon_Fodder]

I am making a character and I want him to have some limited mental powers with the Lim (Only on the dying or recently dead). Unconscious characters get their Mental Defense but do the Dead? Do their Phyc Lims still apply if they know they are heading towards the “Way After”?

[jtelson]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

I would generally steer towards Telepathy/Postcognition for Last Thought/Last Things Seen etc and TK for 'Mind Control', but Cosmology is likely to figure heavily in how to handle these things.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

I am using the standard Telepathy to read the memories and subconscious thoughts which is all that an be read on an unconscious target. I am wondering on this dead or dying target do I still need to beat thier Mental Defence and deal with any Psyc Lims if I pick up any other Mental Powers.

[jtelson]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

Well, I would think that a dying target would be the same as an unconscious target so yes on having to overcome Mental Defence and Psych Limits ,and a dead target would be unreadable without postcog (Generally) or transdimensional (In very specific worlds) in which case you would also need to overcome Mental Defense and Psych Limits.

[Lucius]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

I think these are questions that can only be answered by whoever is running the game.

 

If YOU'RE running the game, you can come up with your own answers, but either way, you can always ask our opinions.

 

My opinion: If the deceased had Mental Defense it probably still applies (depending on things like "special effects") and if we're only talking about the recently dead, they probably still have all their psych limits intact.

 

Other than Telepathy and maybe Mind Scan I don't know what else you can DO with the dead. Mental Illusions? To give them a taste of some afterlife of your choosing? Mind Control? To do what exactly? - they can't DO anything. Ego Attack? How would THAT work?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is in a class by itself.

[GamePhil]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

I agree with Lucius. Basically, the dead are not something clearly defined in the core rules beyond how one ends up in that condition, and possibly as a physical object with a Body and Defense score. What happens to the mind/soul of the deceased, and details on what you have to do to contact it, is left up to the individual GM.

 

Also, see here for possible ideas:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62664

[Beast]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

depend on the SFX of the mental defence against the dying

if it is a focus you just need to remove it

something learned or implanted still need to deal with it

post dead retro-cognition IMHO is the way to go then it is up the the GM on what you get

[pawsplay]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

Depends. If you define it as Telepathy, "But also works on the dead," then to be balanced it should take their Mental Defense etc into account. Anything Persistent, and depending on cosmology, potentially anything that costs 0 END. In Necroscope, for instance, dead people are still aware.

[The Monster]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

My impression is that, to be susceptible to mental powers, the target has to actually have a mind (for example, Automatons have no EGO score and can't be affected by standard Mind Control, Telepathy, etc.). If it has a mind to affect, then one would presume that all powers and defenses would kick in just like they would any other mind. Undead creatures can, after all, be defined as either mindless automatons or sentient beings, dependingo n the specific kind and genre.

 

In a weird sense, one could think of "dead" as just one of those 'special effects' that don't necessarily define how a power works. Kind of a heck of a 'special effect' though...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

This is a world problem, to my mind: technically the dead can't be 'brain read' because they are, well, dead, and not actually there, but your GM might allow that, in your world, the recently passed have enough neural activity to be telepathed, at least for a while.

 

If I were the GM, I'd allow it, but, I'd warn you that reading the dead is hazardous - stay too long in there and you might pass with them

 

Alternatively you could assume that, from the moment of death, the character's EGO drops to -30, but they gain 30 mental defence, which increases by 5 points per turn, until they are unreadable as neural activity ceases, and assuming they have their brain intact. Any mental defence they had in life would also remain, and add to the mental defence 'granted' to the corpse. This approach would mean that a deceased character would be easier to read for a turn or two after death, but it would rapidly become impossible if you waited longer.

 

As another alternative, the GM might allow you to buy a simple detect to read the thoughts of the recently passed, as you might buy a detect to read the memory fo a computer.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

I was looking for your opinions. I figured they did but was hoping for a diffrent opinions.

[mattingly]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

I generally treat Dead/Undead as a new Class of Minds. If your mental powers only work on dead/undead, there's no mechanical changes needed. But if you can affect living and dead minds, you'd need to pay the +10 Adder for affecting a second Class of Minds.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

This is a philosophical question: is the meat the mind?

 

If the brain is the mind, holds the memories then you should be able to read it for as long as it retains its memory structure. I've no idea how long that would be.

 

OTOH if you believe, or your GM does, in a life after, then you are probably after a whole new barrel of fish with your shotgun. Depending on how death and the aferlife work, you might need transdimensional mindsacan and TD TP to ready the dead.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

I am making a character and I want him to have some limited mental powers with the Lim (Only on the dying or recently dead). Unconscious characters get their Mental Defense but do the Dead? Do their Phyc Lims still apply if they know they are heading towards the “Way After”?

 

I am in agreement with most posters that the dead no longer have minds to be read. Most genres with telepathy seem to feature the telepath, at some point, saying "he's gone", after which they are unable to read him.

 

However, if I were to accept a power under which telepathy could impact a dead target, I would also rule:

 

- they have no surface thoughts, same as an unconscious person.

 

- They still have mental defense and psych limits. If they have a mind to be read, it stands to reason that it contains all its parts, not just the thoughts you want to read.

 

- I would call this a separate class of minds under those rules.

 

I'd be more inclined to use a retrocognition mechanic applied to existing telepathic powers and require you use Telepathy as a sense pushing back far enough to read his mind in the seconds before death.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

Ok thanks for the input. When I go to the GM with this since we haven't dealt with the whole Dead/Undead thing is this:

Leaving it at Human Class Minds with the Limitation (only on dying or recent dead (<2min)

The target will be treated as for targeting and what I can do as unconscious alive being so all defenses apply

And of course could not of died from a head wound. He can’t read scrambled brains.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

A thought/option that I haven't seen yet.

In the same way EDM is used to "Go into the past" and Retrocognitive Clairsentience can be "perceive" the past, you could model this as Telepathy with the Extra/Transdimensional advantage (either reading the thoughts that were there at the time of death, or reading the thoughts of that persons spirit off in whatever afterlife options fit your campaign)

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

Now that all the serious answers have been given...

 

It depends. Just how dead is he anyway?

[Tonio]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

Now that all the serious answers have been given...

 

It depends. Just how dead is he anyway?

 

He's only mostly dead.

[jtelson]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

A thought/option that I haven't seen yet.

In the same way EDM is used to "Go into the past" and Retrocognitive Clairsentience can be "perceive" the past, you could model this as Telepathy with the Extra/Transdimensional advantage (either reading the thoughts that were there at the time of death, or reading the thoughts of that persons spirit off in whatever afterlife options fit your campaign)

 

I've generally modeled it or similar effects as retrocog (Mental sense group), and then Telepathy w/ IPE. The GM could also require Mind Scan.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Mental Defense for the Dead

 

This is a philosophical question: is the meat the mind?

 

If the brain is the mind, holds the memories then you should be able to read it for as long as it retains its memory structure. I've no idea how long that would be.

 

OTOH if you believe, or your GM does, in a life after, then you are probably after a whole new barrel of fish with your shotgun. Depending on how death and the afterlife work, you might need transdimensional mindsacan and TD TP to ready the dead.

 

Here's my take on it - YMMV.

 

While alive, the brain works like it does in the book. Death of the body means the brain no longer receives oxygen. Oxygen deprivation will quickly cause the neurons in the brain to die. Dead neurons don't conduct/generate any signals. Enough neurons die, and the brain falters and stops.

 

At this point, the story either stops or continues depending upon the game world's axioms. Primarily of the existence of an afterlife. But either way, once the brain is dead, there isn't any more reading because all that was the character was lost or has moved to a different existence and is no longer connected to the brain. If reading of this "essence" is desired, it would take something more than regular mental Powers/Senses IMO.