BubbaDave Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 The recent death of Gary Gygax got me thinking about the fact that I hadn't broken out paper and dice in about a decade, and that's way too long. Back in the day I was playing Fantasy Hero using 4th edition Hero rules. Now I see there's a fifth edition out, and I'm wondering what kind of learning curve to expect: 1) They just relabeled 4th ed to sell more books 2) Basically 4th ed, a few tweaks 3) Some significant changes from 4th ed, but you'll pick 'em up quickly 4) 4th edition is to 5th edition as Yiddish is to Hebrew Any opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Well, from Hero System Basics For the most part, there are no extreme or sweeping changes. We didn't alter the cost of any of the Characteristics or make any other changes that will require you to rewrite all of your characters. Instead, what the 5th Edition mostly does is provide a lot more explanations, clarifications, and options for the HERO System. It makes it a lot easier to do certain things with the rules, and generally tries to improve the readability, usability, and flexibility of the HERO System. There were some changes that you'll go "FINALLY!" and some that you'll think "WTF!?" Different for everyone, really. Oh, and it's a longer read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? If you'd like to see a summary of the changes from 4E to 5E, our errant board colleague TheEmerged has compiled a quite thorough one (not detailed enough to use in play, but enough to give you a good idea of the scale of change), along with interesting personal commentary on the changes: http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HERO425.htm Essentially, lemming, above, has the nature of the changes pretty much right. 4E and 5E are about 90% compatible, so if you're comfortable with 4E the learning curve isn't too steep. Your #3 definition is the most accurate one IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Right in between 2 and 3, in my opinion. In other news, check out the computer game Steve and Darren are making: http://www.champions-online.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Democracy Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? As above. You will find 5th very easy to pick up if you know 4th. It was very much a tidy up and a few changes to try and make things more consistent within a pretty tight restraint. You might want to look at the sixth edition discussions - there may be much more distinction and difference to the rules in 6th edition than were made from 4th to 5th. Doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Limmer Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? 4) 4th edition is to 5th edition as Yiddish is to Hebrew Any opinions? When I read this, I wondered, "How many points of similarity do 4th edition and 5th edition have?" Now, I have this idea of a Game Familiarity Table stuck in my head ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alibear Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? I always thought of Hero as a language. A language for RPGers but a language as valid as any computer speak. Yeah between 2 & 3 in my opinion too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaDave Posted March 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? If you'd like to see a summary of the changes from 4E to 5E, our errant board colleague TheEmerged has compiled a quite thorough one (not detailed enough to use in play, but enough to give you a good idea of the scale of change), along with interesting personal commentary on the changes: http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HERO425.htm Wow, that's an incredibly useful link. Very cool. Now I just have to decide whether I get all spendy at the online store or go looking for local shops that carry Hero stuff. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonio Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Right in between 2 and 3, in my opinion. In other news, check out the computer game Steve and Darren are making: http://www.champions-online.com/ Um, the game's being made by Cryptic, not DoJ. DoJ sold Cryptic the rights to the Champions setting for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? It's more #2 with a lot more examples and options. There were fewer real changes from 4e to 5e than there were from 3e to 4e, if you've been around that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Um' date=' the game's being made by Cryptic, not DoJ. DoJ sold Cryptic the rights to the Champions setting for it.[/quote'] Yup. Though it is important to note that part of the deal selling the rights included a licence in perpetuity for DoJ to continue publishing pen and paper roleplaying materials for the Champions IP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? BTW BubbDave, welcome back to the fold. As you can see, we're generally a pretty friendly and helpful bunch to newcomers. And if you ask for opinions about the game around here you'll get no shortage of responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted March 19, 2008 Report Share Posted March 19, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Um' date=' the game's being made by Cryptic, not DoJ. DoJ sold Cryptic the rights to the Champions setting for it.[/quote'] And!!... I might be making with the funneh.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Opal Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? You can pretty much play a 4th ed character in a 5th ed game with minimal difficulties. I've done it at cons and the guys running 5th didn't even notice. There are /lots/ of surprising little tweaks and expansions, though. Complex characters might require a lot of re-building to get exactly right. Straightforward ones, not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Heck, you can play a third edition in a fifth edition game and visa versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaDave Posted March 20, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Thanks for all the advice. I just finished printing out my shiny new Hero System and Fantasy Hero rulebooks (yay PDF download and office printer/copier!) and I'm gonna dive on in. As long as I'm taking advantage of your good natures, what are your opinions of the other supplements? I'm gonna be running a heroic campaign based in Germany c. 1431 (yes, I *did* play too much Darklands back in the day, why do you ask?) with heavy Warhammer elements and have an IMHO fairly well-developed magic system, so I don't see things like the Grimoire or Enchanted Items fitting in well and the campaign worlds are right out. Martial arts are going to be pretty limited, so Ultimate Martial Artist is probably way overkill, and most of the other Ultimate series look very Champion-centric. Ultimate Skill, maybe? The Bestiary looks possible too, though I'm more likely to use my 4th ed bestiary and convert it. Opinions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? This might come in handy for you...Warhammer 2e to HERO System 5e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted March 20, 2008 Report Share Posted March 20, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? IMHO the Fifth Edition Bestiary is far superior to the Fourth Edition one, for everything except humanoid fantasy races like dwarves and giants (that's what Monsters, Minions, And Marauders is for). It's better organized than 4E, has a broader range of animals and creatures, and more thorough guidelines, suggestions and optional rules for using animals in various game genres. Best of all, it allows for diverse and easy customization of the listed creatures. Many of them have additional abilities already written up and costed for you to tack onto the basic character sheets. There's also a sizeable number of character type templates that you can graft onto a beast to change its nature significantly: templates like a range of Sizes (enormous to miniscule), Aquatic, Arctic, Space, Divine, Infernal, Elemental, Mutated, Cybernetic, Venomous, Cunning, Ferocious, and more. Frankly, I've found the 5E Bestiary to be one of the most broadly useful books in my HERO collection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaDave Posted March 21, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Frankly' date=' I've found the 5E [i']Bestiary[/i] to be one of the most broadly useful books in my HERO collection. Okay, back to the Online Store I go. . You sure you're not on commission? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hopcroft Posted March 21, 2008 Report Share Posted March 21, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? With the bestiary, you probably have all the books you truly need for a low-magic fantasy game. It sounds like you're going to be homebrewing quite a bit of the other stuff (like weapon styles, etc.). The bestiary gives you the groundwork for creating your own original creatures by showing you what various iconic beasties look like in the system. You might want to consider Hero Designer for your home computer, to maintain your NPCs. The bestiary character pack for HD is extremely handy for making specific examples of creatures that are special. But it's not totally necessary (although I couldn't live without it quite so readily). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaDave Posted March 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? You might want to consider Hero Designer for your home computer' date=' to maintain your NPCs. The bestiary character pack for HD is extremely handy for making specific examples of creatures that are special. But it's not totally necessary (although I couldn't live without it quite so readily).[/quote'] Will Hero Designer let you tweak costs to reflect house rules? I'm very likely to increase the points cost of Strength for my FH campaign (because at 1 point even the freaking wizards have STR 18) and I'd want HD to reflect that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? Will Hero Designer let you tweak costs to reflect house rules? I'm very likely to increase the points cost of Strength for my FH campaign (because at 1 point even the freaking wizards have STR 18) and I'd want HD to reflect that. Yes, but w/ effort. You'll have to design a custom template and use it correctly to modify costs, or otherwise deviate substantially from base rules. Here's a utility to make altered NCM's that I provide which is similar enough that it should give you an idea of the forces at play among custom Templates. NCM Template Maker Also, for specific help with specific problems posting a how to question in the HERO Designer forum will usually net you a useful response or three. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? 4) 4th edition is to 5th edition as Yiddish is to Hebrew Any opinions? I know yiddish speakers who can't understand spoken hebrew, and visa versa. They're much more different than most people think, so I'm not sure where you're going with that. To answer your question: you will be able to immediately understand 5th if you are comfortable with 4th. There were a few notable changes, and a lot of cosmetic ones, but overall its the same game. Its more granular. Whether that is good is a subjective thing. There are some posts on the boards about the specific differences, as well as links spelling them out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BubbaDave Posted March 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? I know yiddish speakers who can't understand spoken hebrew' date=' and visa versa. They're much more different than most people think, so I'm not sure where you're going with that.[/quote'] That's exactly where I was going with that: some of the vocabulary is the same, but the two languages are different families, written using different characters, and there's no reason to assume somebody who is fluent in one will be able to do more than vaguely comprehend the other. That was my worst-case scenario for the differences between 4e and 5eR; fortunately for me the two versions were a lot more similar than Yiddish and Hebrew. As for why I pulled that particular analogy out of thin air, blame it on the 15th century Jewish sorcerer/physician I was developing spells for at the time. I'd just finished his language list beforehand-- got some mileage out of his Linguist, I can tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Re: 4th ed vet-- how different is 5eR? That's exactly where I was going with that: some of the vocabulary is the same, but the two languages are different families, written using different characters, and there's no reason to assume somebody who is fluent in one will be able to do more than vaguely comprehend the other. That was my worst-case scenario for the differences between 4e and 5eR; fortunately for me the two versions were a lot more similar than Yiddish and Hebrew. As for why I pulled that particular analogy out of thin air, blame it on the 15th century Jewish sorcerer/physician I was developing spells for at the time. I'd just finished his language list beforehand-- got some mileage out of his Linguist, I can tell you. In the 15th century the big kabbalists were sephardic. Give him judeo-arabic and ladino! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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