Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

[casualplayer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

His.

[Certified]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Often I have a concept in my head of what a character should be able to do. When moving from concept to design I try to stay as true to the original as possible but often come up short. The first though being, what limitations for the powers would be true to the concept. The second, can I plant seeds to grow the character into what I had originally planned.

 

As casualplayer mentioned looking at most characters in comics, you are looking at the "experienced" version, not how they were at the start of play. Sure in comic book land this can be attributed changing writers or a bad story but when trying to look at it from a game perspective it's a matter of how the character has grown, minus the rainbow finger bolts.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Actually, I think the majority of A list supers in Marvel and DC are not stat-able on 350 points because the more issues they've been depicted and the more writers have touched them, the broader the array of things they've been depicted as doing and the more irregularly even their basic abilities have been conveyed.

 

Personally, if you are trying to model a published character, just model the character and don't worry about the points. If you are trying to make a playable PC on 350 points and are attempting to ape a published character then get as close as you can on 350 points and build up.

 

The game doesnt say 350 points is the right level at which to model actual published characters, its says it recommends 350 as the starting level for a basic supers role playing campaign.

 

If you want to play Justice League level characters you can do that -- just start the campaign at 500, 750, 1000 points -- however many it takes to hit the feel of what you want.

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

These are the characters I see as most difficult/controversial when it comes to creating them on 350 (in no particular order):

 

Martian Manhunter (such a vast array of powers attached to a Superman template)

 

As always, start with the early versions of the character, or spend more points.

 

The Invisible Woman (Those IPEs get damned expensive, especially with the already expensive FWs)

 

She's a sidekick with invisibility. She has virtually no skills, and very few powers. Padding her out to 200 points would be difficult.

 

Mr. Fantastic (Only when trying to add his vast resources and gadget pool)

 

He's certainly built on more points that the rest of the FF, but again, go back to the early versions of the character if you want to build him on starting points.

 

Starting points = starting character.

Experienced character -> experienced character points.

 

Jean Grey Phoenix (Raw power off the scale)

 

Well duh.

 

Build Marvel Girl, and then tell me about it.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Martian Manhunter is a munckin character. I would not allow him in my JLA game . It's like saying, "I want all the powers the big brick has, plus I want mental powers like Professor X and invisibility. Oh, and I want shapechanging powers, too." He's like a bad randomly generated V&V character.

 

There is no way that you can get him into 350 points, even as a starting character. That being said, I think he's kind of an interesting character when written properly.

 

You probaly could do a starting Invisible Girl on 350. She didn't develop the force fields until later, if I remember correctly .

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Martian Manhunter is a munckin character. I would not allow him in my JLA game . It's like saying, "I want all the powers the big brick has, plus I want mental powers like Professor X and invisibility. Oh, and I want shapechanging powers, too." He's like a bad randomly generated V&V character.

 

There is no way that you can get him into 350 points, even as a starting character.

 

Don't say that unless you've read the early stories.

 

His original power set was quite different from what he has these days, and admirably suited to modelling with a multipower.

 

There's a volume in the Showcase Presents series covering his early appearances. His power set changes radically halfway through the book.

 

You probaly could do a starting Invisible Girl on 350. She didn't develop the force fields until later, if I remember correctly .

 

That's right. Her original *power* was Invisibility, period. She didn't have much in the way of skills either.

[Maelstrom]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Really the question is too easy. The Infinity Gauntlet alone could not be built on points.

[sbarron]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

OK. I was trying to do an immortal on 350 points, and I'm running into trouble. I could shoehorn it in, but the sheet wouldn't really resemble what I set out to do. Paring away points and coming up with some creative power builds, I couldn't really get what I wanted for under about 425. I also had a similar problem trying to do an android.

 

What are the character concepts that you will never ever get in for 350? I've seen the 350 Supermen, and most of them, though clever, really don't give a true sense of the character.

 

I also throw out Green Lantern. No way in hell can you even get close. I've seen Meteror Man II, and he would be paste in most games. He can't even stand up to most of the folks in CKC.

 

Any thoughts?

Part of the problem with statting out "concept" characters is that you can't get married to the final evolution of the concept with only 350 points. Notice, you say that you're having trouble modeling an "immortal," but then later in the thread you mention you're using the Highlander as a template. You then say that Superman is a character "concept" that can't be modeled for 350, and then say the same thing about Green Lantern. These guys aren't character "concepts." They represent the concept because we so closely identify the character and the concept, but they're not the same thing.

 

Superman's character concept is probably "flying brick with some energy projector powers." Green Lantern's concept is "fancy energy projector, through a ring." Reed Richards is "gadget/science character with stretching." Spider-man is "spider-based powers."

 

You can easily create characters that model these "concepts" for 350 points. What you can't do is create the 50 year old comic book character that shared the same original concept. And actually, I've always found it really liberating when I'm making a concept character when I go back to the original concept and start from scratch. Does "danger sense" really make sense for a "spider" based concept? Probably not. And that frees up some points to help with actually modeling the concept, and not the 50 year old character.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Hmm, I dunno. LapsedGamer's point with Meteor Man was that he was unable to stand up to CKC villains. If the character concept of Superman is "flying brick with energy powers who can take what top level villains dish out and stand toe-to-toe with specialist bricks and speedsters." Well, not so much. Bulldozer is 290 points, and I can't see getting useful EB, flight and X-ray vision from 60 points. Fist of Allah doesn't have the EB, and he still comes in at 375 points. Archon, who is still an underwhelming brick, pushes past 700. You want a Superman who loses an arm wrestle with Bulldozer? That you can do on 350 points.

[jtelson]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Hmm' date=' I dunno. LapsedGamer's point with Meteor Man was that he was unable to stand up to CKC villains. If the character concept of Superman is "flying brick with energy powers who can take what top level villains dish out and stand toe-to-toe with specialist bricks and speedsters." Well, not so much. Bulldozer is 290 points, and I can't see getting useful EB, flight and X-ray vision from 60 points. Fist of Allah doesn't have the EB, and he still comes in at 375 points. Archon, who is still an underwhelming brick, pushes past 700. You want a Superman who loses an arm wrestle with Bulldozer[i']? [/i]That you can do on 350 points.

 

First: That's not Superman's concept

 

Second: A 45 Point MP (15" Flight, 3D6 RKA Multi-Slots) can be had for 60 Points. And X-Ray vision isn't core to the non-Superman concept you presented so it can be dropped.

[gmurie]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Rogue is a silly character. Some newby player' date=' probably the GM's girlfriend, said she wanted to play and "Can I play that villain that you used the other day in your Avengers game?" Almost all of the players in the X-Men game said "Hell, no," especially Ariel/Sprite's player who was pissed that she had to start with, like, only 200 pts because she laughed at the GM's clumsy passes and [b']now Miss Thing gets to play a character that can suck an Asgardian dry.[/b]

 

I just got a horrifying visual image there that you could not have possibly intended...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Some good and some interesting points so far.

 

Imo, Superman is a Speedster/Brick.

 

When compared to a straight Speedster or straight Brick built on a similar amount of points the character is going to fall a little short. Regarding the latter, if all they do against each other is deliver punches the straight Brick will prevail until Superman changes tactics.

 

Superman from the Animated Justice League clearly showed this. He was not necessarily stronger and tougher than every other Brick that showed up. He sometimes had to combine his speed (usually via flight) to beat certain foes. (His fight ending attacks vs. Solomon Grundy and Darksied were essentially Move-Throughs).

[casualplayer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I just got a horrifying visual image there that you could not have possibly intended...

 

There are no accidental horrifying images in my writing.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Part of the problem with statting out "concept" characters is that you can't get married to the final evolution of the concept with only 350 points. Notice, you say that you're having trouble modeling an "immortal," but then later in the thread you mention you're using the Highlander as a template. You then say that Superman is a character "concept" that can't be modeled for 350, and then say the same thing about Green Lantern. These guys aren't character "concepts." They represent the concept because we so closely identify the character and the concept, but they're not the same thing.

 

Superman's character concept is probably "flying brick with some energy projector powers." Green Lantern's concept is "fancy energy projector, through a ring." Reed Richards is "gadget/science character with stretching." Spider-man is "spider-based powers."

 

You can easily create characters that model these "concepts" for 350 points. What you can't do is create the 50 year old comic book character that shared the same original concept. And actually, I've always found it really liberating when I'm making a concept character when I go back to the original concept and start from scratch. Does "danger sense" really make sense for a "spider" based concept? Probably not. And that frees up some points to help with actually modeling the concept, and not the 50 year old character.

 

I see your point about not being able to replicate published characters on a budget. However, I maintain that certain basic concepts are impossible on a budget. I think that we have come up with some good examples. A really combat effective VPP seems to be one of the culprits. Rogue and Green Lantern are built around that concept. Androids and Robots have so many points tied up in life support and special defense that they really can't be effective at that point level.

 

I will allow that you could make an effective Green Lantern clone on 350 with the build Kelcyron talked about. I couldn't see Spider-Man or Reed Richards being that difficult to get into 350 on a bare bones level. Superman, not so much.

 

The Highlander was one of my inspirations for the character, not the actual template. The character has to be basically immortal, have a resonably approximation of the life experince you would accumulate in 500 or so years and still be at least moderately effective in combat against published characters so that he doesn't beome the team gimp. You never want to be the player that brings the cool concept that contirbutes nothing tactically to the party.

 

CasualPlayer mentions Cateran from CKC. She has some things I would need, so good call, but.... She 's a 500+ point character optimized as a quick brick.

 

She actually isn't really immortal. She's immortal until someone tough enough to kill her decides to. She doesn't have resurrection, so when she dies, she's dead. She could be killed by a very nasty disease or poison for example and have to stay dead. In that respect, she's not as robust as any of the Macloeds, who are heroic charatcers. She's tough to kill, but she's really been alive this long because the plot requires her to be.

 

That being said, her skill list is just the kind of thing I'm talking about. I didn't do an exact count, but I estimate that she has about 60 points tied up in skills, languages and familiarities. Hard to pull off on a budget.

 

Hmm' date=' I dunno. LapsedGamer's point with Meteor Man was that he was unable to stand up to CKC villains. If the character concept of Superman is "flying brick with energy powers who can take what top level villains dish out and stand toe-to-toe with specialist bricks and speedsters." Well, not so much. Bulldozer is 290 points, and I can't see getting useful EB, flight and X-ray vision from 60 points. Fist of Allah doesn't have the EB, and he still comes in at 375 points. Archon, who is still an underwhelming brick, pushes past 700. You want a Superman who loses an arm wrestle with Bulldozer[i']? [/i]That you can do on 350 points.

 

That is precisely my point about Meteor Man, who is the closest the Champions Universe has so far to a Green Lantern. Built on more than 350 points, and he'd have his butt handed to him by a lot of the lower tier published villains. He'd be hanstrung by the way the multipower is set up. A multipower cannot substitute for a cosmic VPP unless the point reserve in the multipower are set so high that two or three of the slots can be used at 50-60 active points at the same time. That's not going to happen at 350 points.

[casualplayer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Sapphire is pretty close to a 350 pt GL, without the cosmic travelling aspect.

 

Can't Be Permanently Killed Immortality is one of those powers that sounds cool but is really kinda useless in play unless you anticipate being killed a lot. Otherwise it's just a good justification for high CON & BODY, Life Support and Regeneration, maybe some Power Defense vs aging/toxic effects.

 

Some ways to efficiently spend the points are Penalty Skill Levels rather than a costly, lengthy list of Weapon and Vehicle Familiarities. General KSs and AKs + levels rather than specific ones. Possibly a MP or EC of Martial Arts rather than a list of maneuvers 20 items long.

[Comic]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I find homages and concepts can generally be built on 350 pts, if three techniques are first applied:

 

1.) Compared to an unskilled normal (and not an efficiently built 'Pro From Dover' character of their point level), is this character super?

2.) Can this character do things depicted by the iconic character at the extreme of their 'Pushed, Roll-3-to-Hit' efforts (not necessarily as a routine, easy feat) under the best possible circumstances?

3.) Can this character be envisioned in ways that would not normally be noticed in the iconic character's original depiction (EG: Increased END, Increased Time, icon wins a fight against a 'Cosmic' punching bag who isn't all that tough in game terms).

 

Homages don't generally build well if you try to compare your character to a Pro From Dover, if you try to make the homage capable of routinely and easily always succeeding at the icon's most outstanding and difficult feats, or if you refuse to compromise on limitations and point caps. They result in either A) unplayably bloated caricatures which, while they'll gloriously defeat 350-pt standard characters, can't go toe-to-toe with characters of their own level designed for combat; or beautiful showpieces that display examples of excellent powers, frameworks, skillsets that make dramatic sense but would just be too much work to integrate in a standard campaign.

 

That said, yes, some concepts can't be crammed into 350 points in any way that does justice to the sensibilities of every critic. The outcome will lack something, or be cheesy, or will be unbalanced (generally weak) in combat against standard characters.

 

I generally find this with villains. Loki costs at least double what Thor does. Sinestro takes the points of any two Green Lanterns. While Grendel's bad, the Grendel villains are monstrous. And the Joker? The Joker's more expensive than any Batman homage, if you're trying to make him a worthy threat.

 

Also hard to do: size alteration concepts, especially with Growth.

 

And of course, the badly conceived, corporate cash cow, designed by committee, continuity flawed creations that many fans want to play.. those are always hard to build on decent points. Adamantium and regeneration aren't easy to do on a superfast samurai berserker with instinctive tracking abilities and the knowledge of a veteran of every war in modern memory, for instance.

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Also hard to do: size alteration concepts' date=' especially with Growth.[/quote']

 

Interesting. I've never thought of Giant-Man or Colossal Boy as being particularly difficult characters to build.

 

I've got a workable rough draft version of the Atom floating around somewhere. The only thing wrong with him is that his focus limitation is a bit generous - he really only should have an IIF, and I gave him an IAF to save points. There's only about a dozen or so points between the two.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Interesting. I've never thought of Giant-Man or Colossal Boy as being particularly difficult characters to build.

 

I've got a workable rough draft version of the Atom floating around somewhere. The only thing wrong with him is that his focus limitation is a bit generous - he really only should have an IIF, and I gave him an IAF to save points. There's only about a dozen or so points between the two.

 

The extras that you have to buy to make a Growth based character tenable do jack up the cost. You need a lot of PD/ED, and you'd better make almost all of that resistant. You are a friggin' target with all the DCV penalties, and you're going to get hit a lot. Extra Running, extra PRE and other extra stats add up quickly. You also have to add seperate area effect for STR and other nice to have stuff into the mix too.

 

I think there are some internal problems with Growth and Shrinking and how they interact with each other and normal sized objects in Hero, but that's another thread. In fact, I started it once. That horse is good and dead.

[Comic]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Interesting. I've never thought of Giant-Man or Colossal Boy as being particularly difficult characters to build.

 

I've got a workable rough draft version of the Atom floating around somewhere. The only thing wrong with him is that his focus limitation is a bit generous - he really only should have an IIF, and I gave him an IAF to save points. There's only about a dozen or so points between the two.

You can get them big (or small).. but how do you balance them for combat, and not make them unplayable?

 

Similarly, with a huge knockback penalty, a small character at the shrinking levels of the Atom or Ant-man hasn't got a hope against AoE's.

 

Below six levels, these powers are generally workable. Substituting Stretching for Growth, and other powers for Shrinking, beyond these levels can work, but it gets pricey fast, even with frameworks.

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Similarly' date=' with a huge knockback penalty, a small character at the shrinking levels of the Atom or Ant-man hasn't got a hope against AoE's.[/quote']

 

They're stealth characters. They work by their opponent not knowing they are there. Once they get spotted, they're in trouble.

 

Failing that, there's always Desol. It works for the Atom, anyway.

[Southern Cross]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Actually,the Silver Age Atom could reduce his size,but still retain his normal weight,so he wouldn't necessairily take extra Knockback.

[assault]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Actually' date='the Silver Age Atom could reduce his size,but still retain his normal weight,so he wouldn't necessairily take extra Knockback.[/quote']

 

True. Yet another multipower slot.

[Comic]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

Shrinking + Knockback Reduction (Linked).

 

The Stealth thing is an important aspect of characters with Shrinking. Sadly, many GM NPCs have GMniscience, and Always Know. Because how interesting is an adventure where the good guys walk in, avoiding all combats, get to their goal, solve the crime, and put the bad guys out of business, because the villain doesn't see them?

[Mike W]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I've found very few things you can't build a workable version of on 350 if you're willing to be flexible(or abuse if you prefer) the necessary concept for defining an EC.

 

I think the hardest thing is people who have a decent amount of all around skills/abilities but that "one big power" that costs insane amounts - Rogue's power drain comes to mind. It's a tough build to begin with and very hard to do cheaply.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Concepts You Just Can't Build on 350 points.

 

I've found very few things you can't build a workable version of on 350 if you're willing to be flexible(or abuse if you prefer) the necessary concept for defining an EC.

 

I think the hardest thing is people who have a decent amount of all around skills/abilities but that "one big power" that costs insane amounts - Rogue's power drain comes to mind. It's a tough build to begin with and very hard to do cheaply.

 

5th Edition has actually cut out a lot of the old fashioned EC abuse. You can't buy stats or armor and the like in ECs anymore, so no more vampires and werewolves on 150 points. Also, no more EC for "my godlike abilities." just to shoehorn in more points.

 

I also think that disallowing the old focus and OIHI combo has stopped a lot of powered armor munchkinism.