Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Title of the thread says it all. Player wants to have this, but it seems to me that this power is WAY too effective for the cost. It basically means an almost certain easy win for the players(as most bad guys will be immobolized long enough to take them out easily). Some fights will be over in a single phase. This seems ridiculous to me..and basically forces me to radically alter every scenario I run. Anyone have any experience with this power and how it affects the way the campaign is run?

 

Thanks,

Rob

[mattingly]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

I usually require the limitation that Mental Defense adds to EGO for purposes of breaking out.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

One way is to have the players encounter an enemy with the power. Players, in my experience, detest this power.

 

If you play the encounter and half way through the enemy is doing what the players hope to do by using the power have a discussion then about the power being overpowered and how you would like to limit it.

 

I think that the power should not be reduced in power but in application, so that it has devastating effectiveness in particular circumstances, just not in combat...

 

That way the players can use it if they can engineer the proper circumstances and must face it if they get manouevred into such ciircumstances themselves.

 

 

Doc

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

IME this attack isn't as unbalanced as it seems at first. If your campaign enforces Active Point caps, the required +1 1/2 in Advantages eats up a lot of them. Characters are allowed to Push their EGO to escape; and since GMs can allow characters to Haymaker when attempting to escape an Entangle, you're justified in letting your PCs Haymaker their EGO for this purpose. Even for a basic EGO 10 character, that combination should let them do 6d6 damage, enough to break out of most 3d6 Mental Paralysis attacks with one shot (and a 3d6 Mental Paralysis costs 75 Active Points).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

I usually require the limitation that Mental Defense adds to EGO for purposes of breaking out.

 

The description of Mental Paralysis Entangle specifies that this isn't the default, but you can add it as a -1/2 Limitation. You could make this Lim mandatory for Mental Paralysis in your campaign.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

Another option would be to require that Mind Control be used for this effect instead of Entangle, and rule that the mental paralysis command ("Remain Motionless") is always -- despite the example in the book about Mentalla and the brick -- an EGO+30 effect when used in combat. In other words, anyone is violently opposed to being ordered to stand helplessly in a combat situation.

 

This allows Mental Paralysis to be very powerful when used judiciously (i.e., if you can catch the target at a time when they wouldn't mind remaining still), but not very useful in combat...

[BNakagawa]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

This power has always been the most effective Martial Artist Killer in the game.

 

Traditionally, the martial artist tends to go first. So after they've taken an action, you hit them with the Mental Paralysis and then let your teammates break the martial artist into itty bitty pieces.

 

It is extremely unbalancing in that it renders the target incredibly vulnerable to things like autofire attacks, move throughs, called shots to the head and a host of other awful things. It is extremely hard on people that rely on active defenses.

 

In contrast, the NND attack does pretty much the same thing to bricks and other targets that invest heavily in defenses, but it only works for the person who bought the NND attack. The Mental Paralysis buggers the victim that invests heavily in active defenses, but it works for everybody.

 

It is very difficult to balance a power that works against a powerset that not every group, let alone character might have available.

[Vulcan]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

This power has always been the most effective Martial Artist Killer in the game.

 

Traditionally, the martial artist tends to go first.

 

In my experience, the martial artist tends to HOLD first, a very important tactical distinction - especially on Phase 12.

 

So after they've taken an action' date=' you hit them with the Mental Paralysis and then let your teammates break the martial artist into itty bitty pieces.[/quote']

 

That's a bit harder to get around as a martial artist. Although it would not be unusual by concept for a martial artist to have a high EGO - and therfore a high ECV - it is just rarely done because of the expense in CP.

 

It is extremely unbalancing in that it renders the target incredibly vulnerable to things like autofire attacks, move throughs, called shots to the head and a host of other awful things. It is extremely hard on people that rely on active defenses.

 

In contrast, the NND attack does pretty much the same thing to bricks and other targets that invest heavily in defenses, but it only works for the person who bought the NND attack. The Mental Paralysis buggers the victim that invests heavily in active defenses, but it works for everybody.

 

It is very difficult to balance a power that works against a powerset that not every group, let alone character might have available.

 

Well, it the GM lets someone haymaker their EGO, the entangle BOECV won't last very long. On the other hand, it would likely last long enough...

 

It's a tough one to balance, that's for sure. Soneone earlier in the thread suggested using it on the PC's first, and let them see how it feels to be on the reciveing end. If they're ok with it, then by all means let them have it. Just don't forget to return the favor.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

IME this attack isn't as unbalanced as it seems at first. If your campaign enforces Active Point caps' date=' the required +1 1/2 in Advantages eats up a lot of them. Characters are allowed to Push their EGO to escape; and since GMs can allow characters to Haymaker when attempting to escape an Entangle, you're justified in letting your PCs Haymaker their EGO for this purpose. Even for a basic EGO 10 character, that combination should let them do 6d6 damage, enough to break out of most 3d6 Mental Paralysis attacks with one shot (and a 3d6 Mental Paralysis costs 75 Active Points).[/quote']

 

My biggest problem being...any character reduced to 0 DCV is so vulnerable it's not even funny. Even a single phase at 0 DCV destroys all characters except bricks and they're the ones unlikely to escape anyways. I'm trying to allow the power while somhow limiting it so that it isn't the end all be all. Right now...why would you use any other power....when this is so bloody effective?

[incrdbil]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

IME this attack isn't as unbalanced as it seems at first. If your campaign enforces Active Point caps' date=' the required +1 1/2 in Advantages eats up a lot of them. Characters are allowed to Push their EGO to escape; and since GMs can allow characters to Haymaker when attempting to escape an Entangle, you're justified in letting your PCs Haymaker their EGO for this purpose. [/quote']

 

 

I'd disagree with this. Allowing everyone to Haymaker their ego vs such holds makes the power relatively useless. Every joe normal will be cracking through 3 DEF 3 BOD mental entagles, which only come from a fairly expensive power.

 

It's 27 active points per dice. 2.5 d6 costs 69 active, 55 real (or 2d6 +1 Def, or 2d6, +1 Bod, whatever you prefer)

 

In terms of making someone a target you can get a 4d6 Entangle (5 body) that takes no damage from outside attacks for 67 ative points. Low STR characters, focus users of many types are going to be equally challenged to get out (and I wouldnt let everyone automatically Haymaker their STR to get out of entangles as well). The poor martial artist is just as likely going to have more of a challenge getting out of the normal entangel that takes no damage from outside attacks than the ego entangle...unless they have joined the legions of points effective but weak willed superheroes.

 

As long as every villain in your game isn't walking about with a 10 EGO, it shouldn't be that terrifying.

[mattingly]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

GMs can allow characters to Haymaker when attempting to escape an Entangle

If I were to allow a Haymakered EGO, I'd limit it to 2d6 (since EGO costs 2x STR, 2x EB, etc.). And ruling (I think this is the normal rule anyway) that Haymakering can no more than double the original damage.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

I'd disagree with this. Allowing everyone to Haymaker their ego vs such holds makes the power relatively useless. Every joe normal will be cracking through 3 DEF 3 BOD mental entagles, which only come from a fairly expensive power.

 

It's 27 active points per dice. 2.5 d6 costs 69 active, 55 real (or 2d6 +1 Def, or 2d6, +1 Bod, whatever you prefer)

 

In terms of making someone a target you can get a 4d6 Entangle (5 body) that takes no damage from outside attacks for 67 ative points. Low STR characters, focus users of many types are going to be equally challenged to get out (and I wouldnt let everyone automatically Haymaker their STR to get out of entangles as well). The poor martial artist is just as likely going to have more of a challenge getting out of the normal entangel that takes no damage from outside attacks than the ego entangle...unless they have joined the legions of points effective but weak willed superheroes.

 

As long as every villain in your game isn't walking about with a 10 EGO, it shouldn't be that terrifying.

 

This is true..but they have a better than average shot of dodging or diving for cover...which isn't the case with the mental power.

 

Rob

[incrdbil]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

This is true..but they have a better than average shot of dodging or diving for cover...which isn't the case with the mental power.

 

Rob

 

Well, yes. Nobody shoudl be immune to everything. Of course, small AE flash--or the same entangel bought area effect one hex (accurate) takes care of dodging--and by diving for cover, they've reduced their DCV and blown an action anway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

IME this attack isn't as unbalanced as it seems at first. If your campaign enforces Active Point caps' date=' the required +1 1/2 in Advantages eats up a lot of them. Characters are allowed to Push their EGO to escape; and since GMs can allow characters to Haymaker when attempting to escape an Entangle, you're justified in letting your PCs Haymaker their EGO for this purpose. Even for a basic EGO 10 character, that combination should let them do 6d6 damage, enough to break out of most 3d6 Mental Paralysis attacks with one shot (and a 3d6 Mental Paralysis costs 75 Active Points).[/quote']

 

I wouldn't let them Push (but I don't allow pushes as a routine action anyway), but Haymaker seems reasonable - and leaves a DCV drawback after escape.

 

This power has always been the most effective Martial Artist Killer in the game.

 

Traditionally, the martial artist tends to go first. So after they've taken an action, you hit them with the Mental Paralysis and then let your teammates break the martial artist into itty bitty pieces.

 

It is extremely unbalancing in that it renders the target incredibly vulnerable to things like autofire attacks, move throughs, called shots to the head and a host of other awful things. It is extremely hard on people that rely on active defenses.

 

In contrast, the NND attack does pretty much the same thing to bricks and other targets that invest heavily in defenses, but it only works for the person who bought the NND attack. The Mental Paralysis buggers the victim that invests heavily in active defenses, but it works for everybody.

 

It is very difficult to balance a power that works against a powerset that not every group, let alone character might have available.

 

While I agree Mental Paralysis can be very effective in these circumstances, so can ANY entangle that takes no damage from attacks. A 1 hex accurate AoE Entangle takes no damage from attacks still puts the MA at 0 DCV, an easy target for all comers. Dive for cover, you say? By your own comments, he already moved this phase, so he can't also abort.

 

I'd disagree with this. Allowing everyone to Haymaker their ego vs such holds makes the power relatively useless. Every joe normal will be cracking through 3 DEF 3 BOD mental entagles, which only come from a fairly expensive power.

 

It's 27 active points per dice. 2.5 d6 costs 69 active, 55 real (or 2d6 +1 Def, or 2d6, +1 Bod, whatever you prefer)

 

I prefer the idea that Haymaker adds 2d6 on the basis that Ego costs twice as much as STR, and thus this is 2DC per d6. Even our 10 Ego target still gets 4d6, and will break out in time.

 

And if all the villains have 10 EGO, a mentalist will run rampant anyway with Mind Controls, Mental Illusions, etc. averaging 42 (+30 effect). Mental Illusions to make your friends look like enemies and vice versa only requires Ego +20!

[casualplayer]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

If your players are the kind that would paste someone who is 0 DCV while mentally paralyzed, the label "hero" might not apply. Anyone affected by this has essentially surrendered. This is like stabbing someone while they are sleeping, utterly defenseless, and any applicable Psych Lim should keep the players from just whaling on the victims. CvK, Fights Fair, Honorable, Defends the Helpless, potentially even Overconfident would all preempt a follow-up attack.

 

Similarly any Psych Lim antagonized by just standing there like a bump on a pickle should add to the breakout. Slavishly Loyal, Must Follow Orders, Will Sacrifice Self for Teammates should all boost the roll. PRE Attacks feeding these Psych Lims should also bolster, like assisting someone's recovery from unconsciousness.

 

Then there's always Mental Missile Deflection or Reflection.

[mattingly]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

Then there's always Mental Missile Deflection or Reflection.

Yes, but most characters who can throw a mental paralysis attack have an EGO of 20 or better, so should be able to escape relatively quickly.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

If your players are the kind that would paste someone who is 0 DCV while mentally paralyzed' date=' the label "hero" might not apply. Anyone affected by this has essentially surrendered. This is like stabbing someone while they are sleeping, utterly defenseless, and any applicable Psych Lim should keep the players from just whaling on the victims. CvK, Fights Fair, Honorable, Defends the Helpless, potentially even Overconfident would all preempt a follow-up attack.[/quote']That's my feeling as well. We have a powerful mentalist in our MidGuard (Champions) campaign (95 pt VPP) and IIRC he's used Mental Paralysis exactly once - to subdue Durak after we'd already beaten the rest of Eurostar. We could of course have beaten Durak to a pulp the old-fashioned way - there were 4 heroes against Durak at that point - but the Mental Paralysis just seemed like a more civilized manner to force his surrender. Any hero who clobbers/kills a totally helpless opponent isn't being very heroic (and might well trigger PsychLims such as Code of the Hero or Honorable; as casualplayer has noted) or even find many of his teammates unwilling to follow through.

 

IME Mental Paralysis can be countered or reduced in effectiveness a number of ways. Higher EGO numbers can make the mentalist less certain to hit with it; and a bit of Mental Defense might render it considerably less powerful as well. Certainly any world-class martial artist can justify high EGO and/or MD on the basis of mental discipline or the like; and a mentalist on the team might provide a plausible basis for other characters to having training in resisting mental attacks.

[incrdbil]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

Any hero who clobbers/kills a totally helpless opponent isn't being very heroic (and might well trigger PsychLims such as Code of the Hero or Honorable; as casualplayer has noted) or even find many of his teammates unwilling to follow through.

 

It depends on the target too. Freezing up Foxbat and pummeling is bad. 350 point heroes using it to slow down a target the team combined is having a hard time against is not so bad--especially if its a target that the entire teams firepower will need to be combined to slow them down, and will only be delayed by the mental entangle for a phase. I see no reason why an 'honorable' hero would avoid attacking Grond or Firewing, or some other high-scale threat because they are at a disadvantage. There's honorable, and then there is crazy.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

It depends on the target too. Freezing up Foxbat and pummeling is bad. 350 point heroes using it to slow down a target the team combined is having a hard time against is not so bad--especially if its a target that the entire teams firepower will need to be combined to slow them down' date=' and will only be delayed by the mental entangle for a phase. I see no reason why an 'honorable' hero would avoid attacking Grond or Firewing, or some other high-scale threat because they are at a disadvantage. There's honorable, and then there is crazy.[/quote']True. It'd be different fighting villains who are roughly comparable to the good guys. It's largely a question of scale. Characters like Grond, Dr. D, or Firewing hardly count as "helpless" just because they are immobilized for a Phase (although a hero who took advantage of Mental Paralysis to slip his 4d6 HKA PEN x3 shiv into the immobilized 80+ year old D. Destroyer's heart wouldn't qualify as being heroic in my book).

[BNakagawa]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

While I agree Mental Paralysis can be very effective in these circumstances, so can ANY entangle that takes no damage from attacks. A 1 hex accurate AoE Entangle takes no damage from attacks still puts the MA at 0 DCV, an easy target for all comers. Dive for cover, you say? By your own comments, he already moved this phase, so he can't also abort.

 

The difference between Mental Paralysis and your entangle is that it is still escaped/damaged by a common thing - normal damage. Most martial artists have more STR than EGO.

 

Also, even if the martial artist has a held phase, it's not like a martial dodge is going to help against Mental Paralysis. Unless you allow martial arts based on Ego Combat Value, which is an even uglier can of worms...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

The difference between Mental Paralysis and your entangle is that it is still escaped/damaged by a common thing - normal damage. Most martial artists have more STR than EGO.

 

Also, even if the martial artist has a held phase, it's not like a martial dodge is going to help against Mental Paralysis. Unless you allow martial arts based on Ego Combat Value, which is an even uglier can of worms...

 

That ordinary Entangle will have considerably greater DEF and BOD, making it better able to withstand that greater STR. And Martial Dodge does not protect against mental attacks in general - including a mental entangle.

 

The fact that this ability may be "martial artist breaking" does not make it "game breaking". It may even be game fixing if those pesky martial artists are running rampant.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

That ordinary Entangle will have considerably greater DEF and BOD, making it better able to withstand that greater STR. And Martial Dodge does not protect against mental attacks in general - including a mental entangle.

 

The fact that this ability may be "martial artist breaking" does not make it "game breaking". It may even be game fixing if those pesky martial artists are running rampant.

 

regardless, an entangle that is transparent to attacks is still easy for any passing teammate to rip asunder, assuming they can hit a dcv of 3.

 

A mental paralysis is generally something nobody can help you with unless they have some mental powers.

 

The issue I have with mental paralysis and martial artists is this: The martial artist has invested a large batch of points in order to have a high DCV to protect them against attacks. A mental paralysis attack usually costs all of 6 points for an ultra slot in a 60 point multipower, assuming no limitations. (and let's be honest, how many mentalists don't have such a multipower?)

 

The fact that the mental paralysis bypasses and neutralizes the martial artist's investment almost automatically is one thing. The fact that it also neutralizes their primary defense against all other aggressors is another.

 

The anti-brick techniques of NND or find weakness only work for the attacker, and do nothing to ruin the brick's primary defenses with respect to other attackers.

 

It is a general rule, but very relevant, that any entangle not based on generic damage is a potentially unbalancing construct. You can reasonably assume that any combatant can generate some damage. You cannot reasonably assume that any combatant or group of combatant can generate ego based damage, PRE based damage or any other esoteric, exotic construction.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

The fact that the mental paralysis bypasses and neutralizes the martial artist's investment almost automatically is one thing. The fact that it also neutralizes their primary defense against all other aggressors is another.

 

The anti-brick techniques of NND or find weakness only work for the attacker, and do nothing to ruin the brick's primary defenses with respect to other attackers.

 

Mind Control turns them on their allies. That's another 6 point slot.

 

It is a general rule' date=' but very relevant, that any entangle not based on generic damage is a potentially unbalancing construct.[/quote']

 

This I agree with.

 

You can reasonably assume that any combatant can generate some damage. You cannot reasonably assume that any combatant or group of combatant can generate ego based damage' date=' PRE based damage or any other esoteric, exotic construction.[/quote']

 

Any combatant has an EGO score and a PRE score, so they can generate some damage, though possibly not huge damage. Allowing a haymaker to be used enhances that damage markedly.

 

Of course, a character reliant on accessible foci, attacks that do no BOD, or attacks which are Restrainable or otherwise require freedom of movement have little ability to damage a normal Entangle.

 

I'd be inclined to allow the power to the extent of the game's damage class limits, but explicitly reserve the right, should balance prove it necessary, to require the limitation "no defenses" be applied to the power, further enhancing the ability of anyone to get out in time. Alternatively, you could require that limitation from the outset, with the caveat that you will allow it to be bought off if the power proves insufficiently effective due to the limitation.

[Beast]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

that is just teamwork in action

have some body throw an area 1 hex transparent entangle against the same martial artist and then have somebody pound on them the same way

you don't even need it to last more than 1 segment to get the advantage on your foe

This power has always been the most effective Martial Artist Killer in the game.

 

Traditionally, the martial artist tends to go first. So after they've taken an action, you hit them with the Mental Paralysis and then let your teammates break the martial artist into itty bitty pieces.

 

It is extremely unbalancing in that it renders the target incredibly vulnerable to things like autofire attacks, move throughs, called shots to the head and a host of other awful things. It is extremely hard on people that rely on active defenses.

 

In contrast, the NND attack does pretty much the same thing to bricks and other targets that invest heavily in defenses, but it only works for the person who bought the NND attack. The Mental Paralysis buggers the victim that invests heavily in active defenses, but it works for everybody.

 

It is very difficult to balance a power that works against a powerset that not every group, let alone character might have available.

[Vulcan]

Re: Mental Paralysis..how do I keep this from being game breaking?

 

The ultimate trick is not to overuse it. If it becomes an 'instant death' power against martial artists, or even 'parlayze the martial artist for the entire combat,' that has great potential to make for a not-very-fun game for someone. If it happens once in a while, it's not a big deal (especially if the villian has a 'paralyze him and leave him' strategy, as opposed to 'kill the helpless martial artist' which is decidedly mean).

 

Of course, if the mentalist has a BOECV Entangle, he likely also has an Ego Attack that will stun the living daylights out of the martial artist, to much the same effect (for one phase, anyway).

 

A viable alternative, if the BOECV Entangle is too nasty, is the Mind Control "Freeze!" At least there, the mentalist has to try a bit more.