Five-Teams

[Michael Hopcroft]

I havent; seen the VIPER book yet. Does that organization still organize its agents into "five-teams" to more efficiently combat both supers and normals? And if so, how effective are they in real terms?

[OddHat]

Re: Five-Teams

 

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

I havent; seen the VIPER book yet. Does that organization still organize its agents into "five-teams" to more efficiently combat both supers and normals? And if so, how effective are they in real terms?

 

By definition, Viper always loses. Every villain they create casually saunters off on his own, usually killing a half dozen scientists on his way to the surface. Troops of Girl Scouts regularly wipe out Viper Attack Squads for Merit Badges in Public Service. Small yapping dogs chase Viper Mecha, drag them down, and reduce them to scrap. Entire Viper Nests have been destroyed by passing groups of nosey kids (sometimes with the aid of a large cowardly dog or shark). Six year old school yard bullies steal Viper's entire research and development budget every day at recess.

 

So not very effective.

[Tech]

Re: Five-Teams

 

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

I havent; seen the VIPER book yet. Does that organization still organize its agents into "five-teams" to more efficiently combat both supers and normals? And if so, how effective are they in real terms?

 

I don't know about any Five-teams in VIPER or not. However, using the older VIPER material, five-teams are well-respected or feared when I use them.

[Bartman]

Re: Re: Five-Teams

 

Originally posted by Tech

I don't know about any Five-teams in VIPER or not. However, using the older VIPER material, five-teams are well-respected or feared when I use them.

 

Sounds like the campaign I was in when the first AC article came out detailing the new Viper. Up until that point every hero was hunted by Viper. One adventure changed all that. Viper got real nasty real quick.

 

And while I haven't seen the 5th Ed version of them yet, I can't imagine that they are going to get less effective.

[misterdeath]

Playtest peek...

 

Viperia. 1370 points. Totally loyal.

 

D

[GestaltBennie]

VIPER now uses Four-Teams and Eight-Teams, depending on the job.

 

Scott Bennie

[Tech]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie

VIPER now uses Four-Teams and Eight-Teams, depending on the job.

 

Scott Bennie

 

'Eight-Teams'.... I like that word.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: Re: Five-Teams

 

Originally posted by OddHat

Entire Viper Nests have been destroyed by passing groups of nosey kids (sometimes with the aid of a large cowardly dog or shark). Six year old school yard bullies steal Viper's entire research and development budget every day at recess.

 

So not very effective.

 

LOL!

"And Viper would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for those meddling kids!"

 

Picturing the Scooby gang dressed up as a superhero team.

Freddy as the flying brick.

Daphine as the energy projector witch.

Velma as the scientist/gadgeteer.

Shaggy and Scooby as the martial artists with running.

[Chuk]

I wanna see the Hero stats for Jabberjaw.

[Blue Jogger]

JabberJaw

 

25 STR 15

18 DEX 24

18 CON 16

15 BODY 10

10 INT 0

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

5 PD 0

4 ED 0

3 SPD 2

9 REC 0

36 END 0

24 STUN 0

-----------68 pts

 

Skills

(5) PS: Musician 14-

(7) Concealment (INT+2) 13-

(7) Contortionist (DEX+2) 15-

(5) Criminology (INT+1) 12-

(3) Disguise (INT) 11-

 

Powers

(5) LS: Breathe Air

(7) ShapeShift (Squished into a small container)

Touch Group, 0 END Persistent, Requires Contortionist Roll (-1/2)

(10) 10" Swimming

(6) +3" Running

(3) Ultrasonic Hearing

----

58

58+68=126

 

Disadvantages

(10) Social Limitation - 12 foot tall Shark (11-, minor)

(10) Physical Limitation - 12 foot tall Shark

(15) Psychological Limitation - Coward (Common, Strong)

(25) Enraged when other band members need help (Very, 14-, 14-)

[Chuk]

That is the best thing about this board -- you mention something, someone does it! Cool.

[RevHooligan]

I wanna see Hero stats for Christina Ricca in a bathing suit. And a low carb beer that tastes like Newcastle.

 

Eh. worth a shot.

[Starcorp Man]

Love the five man teams, just take the standard agent and swap out the weapons.

 

Was so disappointed in that Viper agents didn't have find weakness anymore.

[Blue]

I dropped (4) 5-man teams into a scenario in my last game. I might as well have been walking the agents into a meat grinder. The agents dropped no one and barely injured anyone. Only my NPC hero was having difficulty with them. It was ugly!

 

And I would have thrown in a few super-powered villains to even things out if my players weren't having so much fun.

 

I've gone to great lengths to come up with good villains for my players, and here the ones they enjoyed the most are the ones they annihilated. I knew viper was good for something.

[Guest Celt]

Originally posted by Blue

I've gone to great lengths to come up with good villains for my players, and here the ones they enjoyed the most are the ones they annihilated. I knew viper was good for something.

 

Occasional bouts with scads of relative normals are good for buffing up the super ego, reminding players they are giants among mere mortals. OTOH, agent teams with good tactical sense and proper preparation can lay a hurt down on even the mightiest of foes. It all depends on what your set-up is.

[GestaltBennie]

Originally posted by Blue

I dropped (4) 5-man teams into a scenario in my last game. I might as well have been walking the agents into a meat grinder. The agents dropped no one and barely injured anyone. Only my NPC hero was having difficulty with them. It was ugly!

 

And I would have thrown in a few super-powered villains to even things out if my players weren't having so much fun.

 

I've gone to great lengths to come up with good villains for my players, and here the ones they enjoyed the most are the ones they annihilated. I knew viper was good for something.

 

What exactly was VIPER's problem in the fight? Were they failing to hit, did their weapons fail to penetrate when they did hit, did the heroes eliminate large numbers of agents before they had a chance to attack or some combination of the three?

 

I'm sure if we analyze the problem, it shouldn't be too hard for VIPER to develop a few tactics to deal with the heroes more effectively next time.

 

Scott Bennie

[Agent X]

Why would anyone consider it a problem that agents get beaten up by a superhero team? They shouldn't be too effective. They should be pawns of supervillains.

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Agent X

Why would anyone consider it a problem that agents get beaten up by a superhero team? They shouldn't be too effective. They should be pawns of supervillains.

Dunno about you, but I get protective of my poor NPCs. Silly trait, really, but every time I make a villain who has a cool backstory, a name, a goal, a raison d'etre... he gets his head lopped off by a murderous PC before he gets to say anything.

 

Gets you down, gets you down.

[Crimson Arrow]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie

VIPER now uses Four-Teams and Eight-Teams, depending on the job.

 

Scott Bennie

 

If you have a problem hero, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire..."The Eight-Team".

 

Sorry.

 

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Lupus

Dunno about you, but I get protective of my poor NPCs. Silly trait, really, but every time I make a villain who has a cool backstory, a name, a goal, a raison d'etre... he gets his head lopped off by a murderous PC before he gets to say anything.

 

Gets you down, gets you down.

Sounds to me like your problem is more that your players don't play heroically than a problem with your villains. What, no Codes vs Killing in your group? Even the police will start to balk if every time the "Revengers" swing into action the body count goes into double digits.

 

You can handle this two ways:

 

1) Sit down with the players and explain that you think they are on the wrong track, and that they need to ramp down the lethality.

 

2) Increase the power and lethality of the villains to match. Every time a villain dies, kill a PC hero in retaliation. Call it cosmic karma. See how long it takes for the PCs to find a "kinder, gentler heroism."

 

Option 1 is smarter, but #2 is more fun.

[Blue]

Originally posted by GestaltBennie

What exactly was VIPER's problem in the fight? Were they failing to hit, did their weapons fail to penetrate when they did hit, did the heroes eliminate large numbers of agents before they had a chance to attack or some combination of the three?

 

I'm sure if we analyze the problem, it shouldn't be too hard for VIPER to develop a few tactics to deal with the heroes more effectively next time.

 

Scott Bennie

 

Heh. Yeh, I've already considered that next time they show up it won't just be a bunch of agents with their typical weaponry. I've decided that I want Viper to gradually be tougher each time. As expected the agents were dropping from one or two hits but the heroes were shrugging off all the damage! The agents were indeed hitting, just not for much if anything. Plus it wasn't easy handling my 20 agents plus 1 NPC plus their 5 PCs.

 

I had things prepared to make this tougher, but when one of the players commented on how much fun he was having and two others agreed, I didn't have the heart to throw in the two villains I'd made. I'll use them next time, and beef up the agent weapons, throw in a tactical advantage (smoke grenades or something that require goggles to see through).

[Lupus]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Sounds to me like your problem is more that your players don't play heroically than a problem with your villains. What, no Codes vs Killing in your group? Even the police will start to balk if every time the "Revengers" swing into action the body count goes into double digits.

Nah, it's not really a problem. Not a CvK game. Not an entirely heroic game, either. Was set up that way. I just put too much effort into creating villains who aren't really meant to last longer than fight or two.

[assault]

Originally posted by Blue

I had things prepared to make this tougher, but when one of the players commented on how much fun he was having and two others agreed, I didn't have the heart to throw in the two villains I'd made. I'll use them next time, and beef up the agent weapons, throw in a tactical advantage (smoke grenades or something that require goggles to see through).

 

I would hold back on the villains, and just throw the agents at them in a smarter way.

 

Definitely use smoke grenages etc. Perhaps add some heavy weapons. Most definitely add lots and lots of innocent by-standers.

 

The situation you want to set up is: the PCs can either save innocents, or fight the agents, not both. If they chose to fight the agents, they will have to find them, dealing with smoke, teargas, bazookas, grenades, and any other toys that you care to use. The agents, in any case, are trying to achieve a goal which is not "defeating superheroes", but rather "acquiring something VIPER wants, and escaping with it afterwards".

 

So, at some point, the agents will retreat, hopefully without the heroes being able to pursue. If the agents have achieved their goal, they will have won, that is, they will have defeated the heroes.

 

Of course, they may not succeed in doing this. The ideal situation is one where the skill of the actual players, not the power of the heroes, is what is decisive in determining the outcome.

 

On a related note: I have always been very fond of the old Super-Agents supplement. I've never been able to use all of it, and it's rather dated now, but it just breathes fun, and it portrays agents in a way that is, shall we say, inspiring to the evil GM looking to mess PCs up with normals.

 

Most agents are anonymous cannon fodder. Not all of them are. Some of them can have individual character sheets, higher characteristics, more skills, and so on. And of course, working for an agency, they can have special toys from the R&D division.

 

If VIPER really wants to mess with heroes, they can always assign undercover agents to the case. They can investigate the heroes to discover their weaknesses, and develop an appropriate reponse. They can assign elite agents to the case, including near supervillain grade skill mongers, assign special equipment, and generally power up, all without a single supervillain getting involved.

 

Then again, hiring a few supervillains as legbreakers might actually be quicker and cheaper!

In fact, now that I think about it, this is probably an early response in the process of escalation. Assigning agents who are actually valuable and talented is probably only something that happens _after_ the rent-a-villains have failed.

 

And if the elite agents fail, then it's time for the staff villains...

 

Now I think about it, the proper way to design VIPER's tactics is to consider its budget. They have goals which have to be prioritised, and will assign resources to each target appropriately. Eliminating pesky superheroes is one of these targets. VIPER will always seek to do this the cheapest and easiest way that is actually likely to be effective.

 

VIPER is actually far more dangerous than a supervillain group like Eurostar. It contains more supervillains, at least some of which are as powerful as anything Eurostar has. (And if it doesn't, it can probably hire them!)

 

It also can form temporary mercenary supervillain teams to face specific threats. This is, of course, expensive, so I suspect this will only happen when there is a known threat, or a specific critical need.

 

The real question is where are the elite, near-supervillain grade agents? Does the local Nest have them? If not, can they be called in for assistance? Is this cheaper (including in status terms) than hiring local talent villains? And so on.

 

The funny thing is: if every Champions GM in the world designed "their local VIPER Nest", with the resources that they have available, and all this could somehow be rationalised into a single organisation, however loose, the result would be almost entirely unlike anything that would be written up in a supplement!

 

My Nest, for example, would be very much a business, with little in the way of overt agent power, but with some very nasty covert agents. It would be geared towards making money, perhaps handling some mad scientists, and, of course, making useful contacts. To some extent, it would be a micro-agency in its own right.

 

Anyway: VIPER has everything it needs to smack down punk superheroes. For the sake of fun, escalate their response gradually, but remember that if VIPER gets really concerned, overwhelming force is probably doctrine. Agents can have skills. Defensive weaponry, like smoke grenades, is really handy.

 

And of course: innocent bystanders are your friend.

 

Alan

[megaplayboy]

well, the first time an agency encounters the heroes, they may be unprepared. Let the PCs whoop a$$ and smile.

 

The second time, the agents will try more numbers and slightly bigger guns. The PCs will take slightly longer to walk through them.

 

The third time, the mercenary villains help out, or the agency base is assaulted. A fairly tough fight, perhaps.

 

The next time the agency shows up, they do it smart. Undercover agents investigate the PCs, maybe a comely female agent befriends a particularly gullible and talkative PC.

Over weeks or months, the strengths and weaknesses of the PCs are discovered. Special weapons and tactics are developed to counter the strengths and exploit the weaknesses.

 

Then the psy ops begin. Scurrilous stories of scandal are fed to tabloids and local news. The new girlfriend persuades the talkative PC that he should really be leader. A bomb goes off in the team's press office. One of the heroes is set up to look like a reckless pugilist or triggerhappy vigilante. Angry editorials appear in the newspaper and the mayor isn't returning their calls.

 

Finally, the set up. A token force of regular agents appears in a public park or mall. When the heroes show up, the trap is sprung. An overwhelming force, or an elite group of agents specially equipped as "hero-stoppers" either frightens the PCs into retreat or outright captures them.

 

Next you have the agency leader gloating as the heroes are led into their customized individual deathtraps(at least one has a barely perceptible flaw the hero can use to escape and free his comrades). The team escapes and is about the stomp the agency leader when they have one more obstacle to beat: The Ultimate Super Agent.

 

One other thought--give the specialized agents a lightning reflex bonus, and combat levels, only vs. the hero they have trained against. Imagine the energy projector's surprise when the agents actually go before him on phase 12!

[assault]

I wrote:

The funny thing is: if every Champions GM in the world designed "their local VIPER Nest", with the resources that they have available, and all this could somehow be rationalised into a single organisation, however loose, the result would be almost entirely unlike anything that would be written up in a supplement!

 

Thinking about this a little more, this might be an interesting exercise. We couldn't use VIPER, of course, but building a similar organisation cell-by-cell to see how it turns out might be kind of fun.

 

I don't think using one of the official organisations is necessary (maybe RAVEN?), but whipping up a bit of a VIPER clone wouldn't be too hard.

 

Then we could start a thread where people could write up their own local branches... The organisation would more or less _only_ consist of the documented branches, plus perhaps a headquarters controlling some pooled resources. Of course there would also be associated corporations and front organisations, which people could also write up if they felt inspired.

 

The result would be incoherent, and nobody would use all of it, but it might be fun and inspirational.

 

I might sit on the idea for a few hours, work out some guidelines, and start a new thread later. Alternatively, someone else could do it first, and of course anyone who wanted to make some suggestions would be welcome to do so.

 

Just for starters - it would have to be a bit four-colourish, but should be usable for "darker" games.

 

It would have reasonably outrageous resources, but need to make a profit overall, even if individual cells don't. Money is useful, even for those with other goals.

 

Anyone interested? Any thoughts?

 

Alan