First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

[Guest steamteck]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

I really think you still don't understand. If the player bought an exo-teleport ability and the senses to target the match it would teleport in and have the desired effect if the GM let you target the air pocket not the fuel area ( which would make the match just go out). if you can target the gas tank interior on a moving car more power too you!

 

it is an example of how exo-teleport can be an unbalancing power though. But yes you do have to consider your character carefully. That just means you can get it right. Just like you want it. I personally find that freeing not constraining squishy systems seem to blunt my personal creativity.

 

What you said was the equivalent of bricks can't throw cars because they didn't purchase them. I wish you luck but actually am kind of confused why you're using HERO from your comments.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

So if Blink's player buys every TP related effect he can thinks of, but finds himself realizing that he can takes out the gas tank of the chase car by TPing a lit match into it - I have to say, that makes sense. Sure, the player will have to make a to-hit roll, but in STORY terms, TPing a lit match to a point behind you is no different from TPing an empty cup into the dishwasher. (And both require equal to-hit rolls)

 

What HERO says, however, if I have this right, is that even those two uses are the same thing in terms of in story use of an ability - ie, both are uses of move X to Y, in out-of-the-story terms, one of them, if the to-hit roll is made, will cause a big explosion - and I believe that means you need to use a power/effect from the Hero System that creates such an effect, instead of TP - something like RKA, w/AOE, limited by must have a lit match with you and a gas tank at destination.

 

You haven't got it right. I'm not surprised - you are throwing up a lot of stuff writing about rules you haven't yet grasped. I'm not surprised that your understanding of what is being said to you is lacking...

 

If a players wants the power to teleport an object from one location to another then he can do so. One of the problems he will face is getting an item from a location he cannot see, teleporting an item to a place he cannot see, or potentially both. Those are overcomable with some extra abilities because the core rules require sight or known locations.

 

If you can accomplish this feat then teleporting a match into the gas tank of a chasing car, or a dirty cup into a sink of soapy water are exactly the same under the rules. The cup will get wet, the match may ignite the fuel (it would be up to the GM to decide if that match did it or whether it landed in a place with no fumes and snuffed out).

 

In a heroic game it is likely the GM might simply decide that the explosion happens just like in films a crashed car always explodes.

 

If the player wanted to represent always managing to explode a chasing vehicle by teleporting a lit match into its fuel tank, then he would buy the attack power (this removes a judgement call or extra luck roll from the equation).

 

No supremacy of game mechanics over world logic. Simply extent of player control over the narrative.

 

Clearer?

 

 

Doc

[Guest steamteck]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

All I can say is that I have played in games very simillar to the kind of thing you are describing and have found the game experience to be annoying, frustrating and down right obnoxious.

 

Take your Teleport example:

 

How come I couldn't just Teleport all the blood out of an opponent and puddle at my feet? How would that be any different than teleporting a cup out of the cupboard and into my hand?

 

Ok, I can teleport a lit match, how about I teleport a peice of electrical cable and all the electricity in it at the moment I teleport it?

 

Hmmm... There is a table shaker full of salt over there, can I teleport only the sodium and not the chloride on top his head?

 

Can I teleport all of the bullets out of a gun?

 

I'm going to spend all day going by ATMs but avoiding their cameras, how much money do I accumulate?

 

At what point is the mechanic of the Power trumping the ability to have a functional story?

 

That WAS sarcasm, right? Just checking for the clueless.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

All I can say is that I have played in games very simillar to the kind of thing you are describing and have found the game experience to be annoying, frustrating and down right obnoxious.

 

Take your Teleport example:

 

How come I couldn't just Teleport all the blood out of an opponent and puddle at my feet? How would that be any different than teleporting a cup out of the cupboard and into my hand?

 

Cupboard and cup

Chest and heart

 

What's the difference?

[Doc Democracy]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

Cupboard and cup

Chest and heart

 

What's the difference?

 

 

Maximum game fun....??

[caris]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

That WAS sarcasm' date=' right? Just checking for the clueless.[/quote']

 

Ever play Mage: The Ascention, with people that wanted to dare the Storyteller to give them Paradox?

 

Compared to some requests I've seen with loosely defined powers those are pretty tame.

[aylwin13]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

It seems to me that sindyr wants to spend beginning character points (for example, the original Superman: leaping instead of flying; car lifting strength; slight super-speed; etc.) but wants Silver-Age Superman abilities (orbit-achieving flight; strength to lift continents; the speed to fly around the earth in reverse orbit to change the flow of time; and any other ability the writers could think of).

 

You can't have both. Characters start at a beginning level, with limited ways of using their powers. They figure out new uses as they use them (gaining XP). Spider-Man didn't have all of the different webs uses when he first started out. If you want your characters to have every possible use of a certain ability you're probably talking galactic-level heroes, a ton more points to start with. Even then, to have the ability to do anything with your power, you're still talking about a VPP (if your using the HERO system). That's just the way it is, IMO.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

If you want your characters to have every possible use of a certain ability you're probably talking galactic-level heroes' date=' a ton more points to start with. Even then, to have the ability to do [b']anything[/b] with your power, you're still talking about a VPP (if your using the HERO system). That's just the way it is, IMO.

 

Which is the reason for some suggestions that, perhaps, Sindyr needs to look to a game where that's not the way it is.

[tarragon]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

So if Blink's player buys every TP related effect he can thinks of, but finds himself realizing that he can takes out the gas tank of the chase car by TPing a lit match into it - I have to say, that makes sense.

 

Here's how I would adjudicate this. If Blink bought have teleport AAU with all the right ranges and effects he can try it and if it works the car will blow up. This is an environmental effect, no different from knocking a villain through a gas station and igniting the gas that spills out.

 

TPing a lit match to a point behind you is no different from TPing an empty cup into the dishwasher. (And both require equal to-hit rolls)

 

It's easy to TP that cup into a dishwasher. Your not in combat time, you are very familiar where it is in relation to you, the dishwasher is not moving, and you've done this before, maybe breaking a cup or two the first time.

 

This to hit roll is hard. The car is moving, probably very erratically if they are chasing you. Blink has to hit the car, it's moving, and the tank is only a small bit of the car, call it a vitals called shot on the Cars DCV. Add another -1 or -2 since Blink needs to guess where precisely the gas tank is in the car. Is blink a auto mechanic? OK he can roll his PS and if he succeeds I'll remove that final penalty.

 

So it's a hard roll, very dramatic, Blink may need several attempts to get it right. Finally he does and boom. yay!

 

Where I have a problem is when he tries to do it again and again. The next night they are fighting agents in a parking lot and Blink decides to start blowing up any car an agent is standing next to. From my point of view this is a bit out of genre for a teleporting character, but I'll let him do it.

 

It's still a tough to hit, less so this time because the cars aren't moving. I rule that explosion isn't very big out side the car it's mostly channeled by the body of the car. Still it should take out an agent. After the session I talk to Blink's player. If he wants to use that attack alot he will need to buy it. The cost of adding a 8d6 explosion gas tank of opportunity with an environmental side effect, gestures (lighting a match), requires skill roll (to indicate he not great at it yet, he'll buy this off soon) to an existing 60 TP MP is 1 or 2 points. If the TP isn't in a MP already it's a bit more to convert it over and add this. He might even have enough points to do this with the XP he got from this session. If not I may loan him enough to do it anyway.

 

Now Blink can make any gas tank explode at will without having to make a vitals shot on the car. Well, unless he fails the RSR in which case something happened, maybe he missed the tank. SFX based I'll say that a small tank like a lawn mower only does a few d6 while a big above ground propane tank will get the same 15d6 it would have had if fire guy torched it off.

 

The next clever idea Blink's player has we go through the same cycle. It's allowed maybe with a Power Skill roll or penalties or both. He can use it a second time before we have an out of game discussion about it.

 

I've never had to do this, but if Blink decides to use a power in a third session without buying it then I let him do it, but *I* add it to his sheet and withhold 50% XP until its paid for. Then we have a talk about the GM-player contract.

 

After a couple years of play time Blink is up to 15 or 20 powers in his multipower. We sit down and re-write the character with a cosmic VPP.

 

FYI: my understanding is that there's not really enough oxygen in a closed tank to blow up well if at all but it's a comic, so yeah. Boom.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

All of this is one reason why I recommend pregen characters. Blink is pretty powerful for a beginning level hero, with all of those abilities.

 

The other reason is I've seen many people new to the system sit down to a game with an ability in mind, and get hung up on tweaking the system to match exactly their vision of the ability. Please, learn the basics first. You need to learn how to crawl before you can walk before you can run.

[JmOz]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

 

I want to post a clarification as I may have either miscommunicated or misunderstood the above bit.

 

From several of the threads I have come to understand (possibly incorrectly, but consistently) that most of what can be done in the scene the characters find them selves in is controlled by the effects that they have pre-purchased on their character sheet. (Although I understand that VPPs give you much more flexibility, although at a very high cost. I have also heard that Power Skill rolls can be useful for new stunts, but always with the caveat that that only works the first few times, after which you better be able to sink the CP/XP into that effect.)

 

Not quite true, the GM is explicitly given permision to do the following:

• Modify powers based on F/X. While this is intended for small modifications what a small modification is is up to the GM
  
• Use the power skill to allow the character to do power stunts
  
• Use a VPP
  

Personaly I like to use a MP and the power skill, The character makes the base character and then adds slots if he succeeds with the slots a few times, usualy the bonus for good roll playing is enough to afford the slots...

 

The two examples I have used before, that seem relevant both happen to use the concept of teleport: the Packrat, who can teleport anything from his house to near him, and Blink, who can teleport anything near him anywhere else near him.

 

With either character you can't simply buy the Teleport power and call it a day. You actually have to know exactly what your character "ought" to be able to do in every possible given situation ahead of time, and prepurchase that. You can't just say to the GM I want to be able to TP *anything* from X to Y, you have to prethink out all the possible effects of every potential item you might teleport to every potential place you might use as a destination.

 

Or you buy Transform for Packrat, defined as transform air into something else with the F/X that he is teleporting an object from his house to him and you buy teleport Usable vs other: Usable As Attack with Range

 

Because if you don't, or you miss one, then the Rules As Written will not permit you to do in the Story what you didn't purchase the Effect for.

 

And that's really the crux of what I was saying: unless the GM does Hand Waving or fudging, if he runs the game according the the rules and philosophies of Hero System, then what controls what a character can do is what the player has purchased.

 

see above

 

 

That makes it very easy for a player to get into a sitaution where he thinks he *ought* to be able to use his power in a simple and rational way, that the *story* supports, but the *mechanics* do not.

 

If GM disallows that use of the power, that means the mechanics are coming first and the story is coming second.

 

So if Blink's player buys every TP related effect he can thinks of, but finds himself realizing that he can takes out the gas tank of the chase car by TPing a lit match into it - I have to say, that makes sense. Sure, the player will have to make a to-hit roll, but in STORY terms, TPing a lit match to a point behind you is no different from TPing an empty cup into the dishwasher. (And both require equal to-hit rolls)

 

 

Well again there are other options above, second there are some real important game balance issues you are ignoring. I will completly ignore that the example is bad physics BTW, a lit match TP'd in a gas tank would NOT make the car explode. However, I think you need to look over the sections on enviroment effects again, if you as a GM feel that an open source of flame should cause an explosion if TP'd into a gas tank then the car explodes. Add to that Usable as attack someway to target that which is not seen.

 

 

What HERO says, however, if I have this right, is that even those two uses are the same thing in terms of in story use of an ability - ie, both are uses of move X to Y, in out-of-the-story terms, one of them, if the to-hit roll is made, will cause a big explosion - and I believe that means you need to use a power/effect from the Hero System that creates such an effect, instead of TP - something like RKA, w/AOE, limited by must have a lit match with you and a gas tank at destination.

 

It therefore seems fully acurate to me that inasmuch as the rules as written prevent you from doing anything other than the specific effects you have prepurchased, even in cases where the story support the use, the fact that the mechanics don't, that is a clear case of the mechanics trumping the story.

 

Actualy what would be more fair to say is: IN Hero you pay points to control aspects of the story, if you do not pay the points then it is the GM decision. So If I want to be sure the GM will allow the match in the gas tank to blow up a car I need to spend the points for it, but that is not the same as not allowing it if you have not paid the points

 

And the only way to prevent such a thing that I can see is to use VPPs.

 

I suppose your could turn it around and blame the player - Blink's player made the error by not choosing a VPP so when the time came, he didn't have the option he wanted.

 

VPP is an option, not the only one. Blaming the player is not right, but talking to him and seeing about adding the ability with future xp makes a lot of sense to me.

 

 

The other possibility is a game in which you buy NOT the teleportation effect, but the actual in game ability to Teleport things, with all that that would entail.

 

Hopefully that clear it up a bit.

 

Been reading all the responses to my various threads, thank you very much.

 

And I will most likely contact some white knights in the near future. Thanks.

 

not sure what you mean by this last part, but good luck

[Vulcan]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

A couple of your issues can be handled straight out of the rulebook.

 

In Hero System' date=' you buy effects, not powers. If you want a power, with all that entails, you need to buy a VPP.[/quote']

 

An EC or MP might work almost as well, with far less complication for a new player.

 

A way to get unlimited range on a power for a fixed cost.

 

It's actually an advantage - check 'Line of Sight' under "Range Advantages"

 

Aside from that, good luck with your new game! :thumbup:

[Sean Waters]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

This is doing us good, people. We NEED to see how Syndir sees Hero because we are all so used to it that we see a varied and interesting game that actually takes away the restrictions, but not everyone does.

 

Syndir, my friend, story always ALWAYS comes first. If the rules get in the way, or reduce the fun quotient, ignore them, or change them or do whatever gives you the most from the experience.

 

In my opinion a rule framework that is transparent and understandable (and there is a LOT to Hero but it is transparent and understandable and a lot more applicable than most game systems to situations that it doesn't cover) is an excellent place to start role playing.

 

I want to mention this point: Hero is seen, often, as a system primarily distinguished by the astonishing variety of characters you can create, and the detail you can lavish on them, and rightly so.

 

However, something that is often forgotten is that the ho-hum everyday rules of how those characters interact with their world are also exellent. 3d6 is an almost perfect distribution to balance predictability and variation. Matching abilities as we do with combat is an excellent way of balancing characters and scaling them int heir own ability ranges. The system, JUST as a system of rules, never mind the character creation system WORKS, and works damn well.

 

Take from Hero what works for you and run with it. If you stick with it you will gain a rich and varied experience. Ask anyone here and I'm a nit-picking argumentative nutter (probably not the word everyone would use but I;m trying to keep this PG13). that is true, on these boards, where I see my role as, well, being a nit-picking argumentative nutter. However, when I'm playing or runnign games I've been known, when under pressure and quite drunk, to make a decent call. The calls are based on an understanding of the character creation concepts, the rules of world interaction and the very ethos of Hero. the great thing is that I'm even capable of making decent calls with other systems because of my experience with Hero.

 

It can seem restrictive: how could so many rules be otherwise? Well, they can, it can be liberating and thoroughly excellent to KNOW how the characters and the world works. It is all make-believe but Hero si make believe in a believeable context.

 

OK, waxing lyrical but can I just confirm that I have no financial or managerial interest in Hero at all. I just think its great.

[Vondy]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

 

However, something that is often forgotten is that the ho-hum everyday rules of how those characters interact with their world are also exellent. 3d6 is an almost perfect distribution to balance predictability and variation. Matching abilities as we do with combat is an excellent way of balancing characters and scaling them int heir own ability ranges. The system, JUST as a system of rules, never mind the character creation system WORKS, and works damn well.

 

I would just add to this that the run-time mechanics are smooth and simple, and once you have a firm grasp of the speed chart, swift. The design-time mechanics are front loaded and crunchy, but that is offset by what you can do with them. And, once you understand the underlying mechanics and philosophical principles of the system you can alter all the junk sitting on top to your taste. My games, which are admittedly heroic, though there are some powers (usually defined as spells or innate abilities), run almost solely on the 3d6 roll and unopposed/opposed tests - including combat. The only other mechanic you have to know is damage rolls (in those cases where I do those as opposed to MoS based damage). And its still very much something a hero player would recognize.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

...

 

I'm a nit-picking argumentative nutter (probably not the word everyone would use but I;m trying to keep this PG13).

 

 

Yep, you're a First Class nit-picking argumentative nutter.

[Egyptoid]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

crunchy

people keep using this word.

how are you defining it?

 

Thanks.

[JmOz]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

It is my understanding they mean a game system that has a lot of detail to opposed to something like White WOlf games that are very free form...

[Sean Waters]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

Yep' date=' you're a [u']First Class[/u] nit-picking argumentative nutter.

 

Ay thenkyew

[ghost-angel]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

Sindyr,

 

I'm just going to come out and say this:

 

I think you have predefined what you wanted out of the system, thus clouding your ability to read the book with any objectivity.

 

I think you have misunderstood most of us, and the book by extension.

 

I don't think you're going to have any fun, will declare the system unplayable, and move on with a bad taste in your mouth.

 

Every game system in existence has a set of jargon, it's unavoidable since one needs quick methods of describing complex ideas - you have no once used Hero Jargon correctly. This is preventing you from understanding things.

 

c'est la vie.

[ghost-angel]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

If you just want a game where you can do any conceivable thing with Concept X then just play that way. Each player decides on a Concept (Fire, Ice, Teleporter) and go. You don't need a game system for that.

[Sean Waters]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

people keep using this word.

how are you defining it?

 

Thanks.

 

Crunchy: 20 active and real points:

Semantics Group and Detect Images 1" radius, +/-4 to PER Rolls

 

Crunchy means, to my mind at least, having lots of detail and granularity. Something you can get your teeth into.

[Korvar]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

Crunchy: 20 active and real points:

Semantics Group and Detect Images 1" radius, +/-4 to PER Rolls

 

Crunchy means, to my mind at least, having lots of detail and granularity. Something you can get your teeth into.

 

I'm convinced it comes from "number crunching" somewhere along the line.

[Trebuchet]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

Sindyr,

 

I'm just going to come out and say this:

 

I think you have predefined what you wanted out of the system, thus clouding your ability to read the book with any objectivity.

 

I think you have misunderstood most of us, and the book by extension.

 

I don't think you're going to have any fun, will declare the system unplayable, and move on with a bad taste in your mouth.

 

Every game system in existence has a set of jargon, it's unavoidable since one needs quick methods of describing complex ideas - you have no once used Hero Jargon correctly. This is preventing you from understanding things.

 

c'est la vie.

I'm going to second this point (even though I know you simply disregard anything I post) because other new players might read this and get some use out of it.

 

You don't even know how to play the game - much less actually played it - and you're trying to alter it in radical ways. People learn how to drive before they try to build race cars. You're trying to build the race car first; and when it goes off the road your inevitable reaction is going to be "Race cars suck!" Never mind that a dozen people tried to warn you that you were tinkering under the hood without the least idea of what you were doing or that those people tried to warn you to learn how to drive first. You're too invested in powering your race car with rocket fuel to worry about the potential for explosions.

 

I don't really care if you dislike Hero after your inevitable crash and burn. What bothers me is the fact you'll undoubtedly be out there badmouthing Hero as a game system to every gamer you can find without actually ever having tried Hero.

[casualplayer]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

Sindyr, HERO can be used to interpret conceptual power taken to the limits of imagination but you have to jettison the idea of arbitrary point build restrictions. Different concepts will take different amounts of points to emulate so as long as you as a GM and all of your players are ok with one player having 800 pts worth of abilities and one player 400 worth. It takes a rare group to be content with one player being Thor and another player being The Wasp.

 

HERO can do anything, generally within a budget. Preferably within a budget, actually, because then, at least in one respect, everyone is playing on a level playing field. Within that budget you make character generation choices about power, resilience, versatility and competence. If you throw off this constraint, it's very easy to put in a lot of work creating a game that isn't fun and will blow up in your face.

 

Variable Power Pool, bought "Cosmic," is the ultimate expression in versatility in HERO. It may seem outrageously expensive but there isn't one of the Old Guard who couldn't dominate a game with a 60 pt Cosmic VPP. Just out and out dominate it. You can't create meaningful threats if the magician can always pull the exactly right rabbit out of his hat. Or teleport it from his estate.

[Sean Waters]

Re: First meeting of game group to consider HERO System

 

I'm not allowed to have VPPs when I'm playing.

 

Bah.