What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

[Ragitsu]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I don't I buy into this. I've seen plenty of candid shots of celebrities' date=' and without hair stylists, makeup artists, clothiers, engineered lighting, best angles, selected cuts, and edited video/photos they look much the same as other people. Its true, the trend is to to pull more beautiful people to start with, and their profession demands they maintain themselves, but on the whole, I've met a great many non-celebrities who are just as attractive as celebrities who aren't at work. Indeed, many off duty celebrities are shlumps while some mere mortals take very good care of themselves on a daily basis. In my opinion, The[i'] Gollywood[/i] illusion is so strong as to warp our psychological reality and create false measuring sticks. Most celebrities are beautiful people. But without an army of ordinary folk creating picture perfect moments for them to walk through, they join the ranks from mere mortals. Celebrities aren't from an alien species with inherently greater pulchritude.

 

Strongly agree with you, Vondy.

[Vondy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

The key phrase here is "substantially more attractive than the average non-celebrity". And I further clarified my claim--those cast as romantic leads' date=' action heroes, femme fatales, "sexy girl on beach", etc. are of course cast with physical attractiveness as a prerequisite. I'm aware celebs without makeup are less dazzling, just as I'm aware everyday ordinary non-celebs are, too. Of course there are regular joes and janes who are just as attractive--where do you think the celebs are pulled from, if not the general population? But in proportion to the total respective sample sizes, you will find more attractive people among the ranks of celebrities, indisputably so if one narrows the sample size to those sub-groups for which appearance is a prereq. Aishwarya Rai is indisputably extremely attractive with or without makeup, imo(ditto Michelle Pfeiffer), but it is true there are non-celebrity women who are equally attractive--with the caveat that of course the average non-celebrity woman is not, and while Ms. Rai is perhaps in the top half of her sub-group looks-wise, she'd be in the top tenth or even hundredth for the general population. Take 50 "Bollywood romantic lead actresses" and compare it to "200 Indian women between 18 and 39 selected at random from the general population", and the results will be unsurprising, imnsho.[/quote']

 

You moved the goal posts.

 

Have to go with Megaplayboy on this one. Media celebrities* are not generally born with "celebrity" stamped on their butt. They are selected out of the general population' date=' and one of those reasons -probably the commonest one - is physical attractiveness. They don't [b']start out[/b] photoshopped and pampered by teams of stylists. The second thing that occurs is active screening out of traits considered less attractive: that means the lower percentiles in terms of physical appearance are absent in the media celebrity population, pushing the mean even higher. Seriously. Look at the actors chosen to play "fat" people in movies. Typically they'd rate "slightly overweight" in the general population. When was the last time you saw a genuinely obese person in a movie that didn't include Michael Moore? Look at the actors or actresses chosen to play "ugly people". With a few exceptions, they are on the whole merely "not hot". Look at "Ugly Betty".

Yeah, that's the media's idea of an ugly woman .....

 

In short, it's a bit of a no-brainer. Media celebrities are a population selected for physical attractiveness from the get go. Not surprisingly, they tend to be ... more than normally physically attractive. Of course, the pampering, surgery and photoshopping push that from "more than normally physically attractive" to "more physically attractive than is actually possible" but that's on top of, not instead of, the starting material.

 

cheers, Mark

 

*note: media celebrities. George Soros is a celebrity, and he looks like Ghandi's willy. But he's a celebrity because he has billions of dollars not because of his physical attractiveness.

 

You both know the math doesn't work.

 

Even if celebrities of the pultchritudinous class are selected for their striking appearance, and I agree they are, the number of people possessing that fundamental qualification in the population far, and I mean by orders of magnitude, outstrips the people who have the both the desire and luck to be chosen for the big media fake-over that malforms our perceptions. Let's say only the top 1 percent of the overall population meets the appearance threshold. In America alone that is THREE MILLION people. Hollywood, fashion, and sundry other beautiful public figure jobs, don't even scratch that number. That celebrities are chosen from a pool of potential candidates the average person, or even pretty person, does not fit into does not change that celebrities themselves only constitute a fraction of the people with that creme de le creme caliber of comeliness. It may be popular culture heresy, but there are at least A 1.5 MILLION women in America alone qualified to give the "famed beauties" some competition. That there are 150 millions more or less ordinary shlumps competing for those women doesn't change the fundamental equation. Celebrities aren't any better looking than than the pool of suitable raw material (non-celebrities with requisite looks) they are drawn from. The idea that they are is hype and nonsense. The only reason a woman is ever voted sexiest woman alive is that she had a celebrity profile for people to notice in the first place. The same goes for men. Even with the 1:1000 figure the premise holds true. Sexiest should be translated "Most noticed of 150,000+ (potentially far more) equally sexy women."

 

I'm not buying it.

[Vondy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

You're forgetting about considerations like age, geographical availability(Miss Florida pretty much has to reside in Florida, for example), and opportunity to be noticed. Miss Teen Florida, for example, comes from the sub-group of "Female Citizens of Florida", the sub-sub-group "16-17 year old female citizens of Florida", the sub-sub-group "16-17 year old female citizens of Florida who happened to hear about the Miss Teen Florida pageant and were available", the sub-sub-sub-group "16-17 year old female citizens of Florida who happened to hear about the pageant, and were available AND interested", and finally the sub-sub-sub-sub-sub-group "16-17 year old female citizens of Florida who happened to hear about the pageant, were available and interested, attractive enough to enter the pageant and attractive enough to win".

If there are 16 million citizens in Florida, 8 million of them female, and 2% of them happen to be between the ages of 16 and 17, that's a sub-sub-group of 160,000. If we assume that 1 in 3 hear about the pageant, let's round that down to a manageable 50,000. Let's further say 2 in 5 were available to participate: 20,000 left. Maybe only 1 in 4 were interested. 5,000 left. Typically there might be around 50 contestants who make it to the pageant stage. That's 1 in 100. All of them will be taller than average, likely slim and well-proportioned with symmetrical facial features and very good skin, along with a certain degree of physical poise and grace. Along with those 50 finalists, there were probably 500 or 1000 who participated in local "eliminator" pageants--there's your 1 level of SA right there. Those who are finalists, there's your 2 levels. Miss Teen USA might rate 3 levels (or not, depending on taste, I guess). You can argue either way, but to me it's a simple "reality check"--in my life, have only 1 in 1000 of the women I've met been spectacularly good-looking? I've met at least a few thousand women, but can think of more than a few who'd qualify for that description. 1 in 20 to 1 in 100 sounds closer to the mark to me than 1 in 1000.

 

Opportunity for "celebrity selection" and requisite pulchritude are mutually exclusive.

 

As for my gut check: 1:100 conservative; 1:50 more likely.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

You moved the goal posts.

 

 

 

You both know the math doesn't work.

 

Even if celebrities of the pultchritudinous class are selected for their striking appearance, and I agree they are, the number of people possessing that fundamental qualification in the population far, and I mean by orders of magnitude, outstrips the people who have the both the desire and luck to be chosen for the big media fake-over that malforms our perceptions. Let's say only the top 1 percent of the overall population meets the appearance threshold. In America alone that is THREE MILLION people. Hollywood, fashion, and sundry other beautiful public figure jobs, don't even scratch that number. That celebrities are chosen from a pool of potential candidates the average person, or even pretty person, does not fit into does not change that celebrities themselves only constitute a fraction of the people with that creme de le creme caliber of comeliness. It may be popular culture heresy, but there are at least A 1.5 MILLION women in America alone qualified to give the "famed beauties" some competition. That there are 150 millions more or less ordinary shlumps competing for those women doesn't change the fundamental equation. Celebrities aren't any better looking than than the pool of suitable raw material (non-celebrities with requisite looks) they are drawn from. The idea that they are is hype and nonsense. The only reason a woman is ever voted sexiest woman alive is that she had a celebrity profile for people to notice in the first place. The same goes for men. Even with the 1:1000 figure the premise holds true. Sexiest should be translated "Most noticed of 150,000+ (potentially far more) equally sexy women."

 

I'm not buying it.

 

I'm not sure we're really in disagreement, but those 3 to 500 attractive celebrities, whom I will see on screen, in magazines, etc., far outnumber the comparably good-looking non-celebrities I will meet IRL. Sure, there may be 150,000 very attractive non-celebrities, but I'm not going to run into even 0.1 percent of them in my entire life. My brain will contain images of all those celebrities, though, in my mental file of "beautiful people", along with the fifty or so comparably beautiful people I've met in person. This, I suspect, will comport with the experiences of most people--they see a handful of very attractive people in real life, and dozens or hundreds of them in media(i.e., celebrities). That will tend to skew perceptions of celebrities as being the most attractive of all(wrong outcome), and at the same time reinforce the perception that in order to be in such a position, you have to be awfully good looking to begin with(a correct perception, imo).

[Cinniuint]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

WOW! 229 posts and 105,000 + views! Looks to me like this is an extremely important characteristic.

 

Saw a player make a character (female character of course) with an 80 comeliness. Back in 3rd or 4th edition, with 100 points plus disads. No female players in that group. Player didn't last long, so I don't really remember how the character worked in play.

 

Just one other comment: we have the habit of respecting beauty, as though beauty were an indicator of competence. There is certainly something behind that habit, but we also have the stereotype of the beautiful blonde idiot, so we are clearly not, as a culture, clear in our thinking on the subject.

[Markdoc]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

You moved the goal posts.

 

Not really: the original question that started this subthread was "are celebrities really more attractive than ordinary people?". The only way to answer that question is by comparing one group (celebrities) with another (just folks). To me it's like asking "Does smoking cause lung cancer?" The answer is yes, but that answer only applies at the group level.

 

You both know the math doesn't work.

 

Actually it does work. I've cut out the math you posted, but it's completely accurate. But if you look at the numbers you posted (and it doesn't really matter if you use 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000, the principle is the same), let's say that 1 in 100 people meet the "20 COM" level. Yup, that's 3 million people. Toss out the really old, and the wee kiddies you still end up with 1.5 million attractive adults. But that means you would need to screen about 150 people to get one 20 COM. Go to a launch party, or an exclusive club, or anywhere where celebrities gather and you'll find the same level of pulchritude at a rate of about 1 in 3 (based on my admittedly limited experience )

 

So, are "celebrities" (a group) more attractive than normal people (another group). Yeah, they are.

 

I'm not buying it.

 

I am. The notion that people selected for their physical attractiveness are not physically attractive, is an odd one to me. The only real media celebrity I've met in real life has been Angelina Jolie. She was most definitely not photoshopped, nor perfectly groomed - in fact she was a wee bit dusty and sweaty enough for her top to stick to her (you may contemplate that thought, if you like ) She not only looked gorgeous, but if you scanned the crowd, she sort of "popped" out of the background: even when surrounded by people (which was pretty much all of the time) your eye tended to linger. I've met non-celebrities with the same sort of eye-catching effect .... but very rarely.

 

So yes, there are many very attractive non-celebrities. When you look at the population as a whole though, the balance tips the other way.

 

cheers, Mark

[randian]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Just one other comment: we have the habit of respecting beauty, as though beauty were an indicator of competence. There is certainly something behind that habit, but we also have the stereotype of the beautiful blonde idiot, so we are clearly not, as a culture, clear in our thinking on the subject.

The thinking gets clearer when you separate by sex.

 

It is indeed true that good looks get you a presumption of competence, if you're a man. In the short run he will get more leeway than a less attractive man, and he has a much easier time getting a job, but he still has to perform. In the long run his lack of competence will be held against him.

 

If you're a woman, good looks get you a different benefit: a free pass. An attractive woman often doesn't have to perform at all (others will do for her), and her lack of competence is frequently excused, hence the stereotype of "dumb blonde". She isn't necessarily dumb, but her looks have given her little need to develop competence.

[Ethernaut]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Since Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder, I just say

COM ~20 for me is:

Summer Glau

Megan Fox

Taylor Momsen

and the like

 

Now if I only knew which Beholder eye holds the Beauty captive...

[Egyptoid]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

my neighbor's wife always has a 20 comeliness.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I skipped ahead in this thread because 20 COM, when naming names, is going to be different for each person. And is going to change with the times.

 

20 COM (or +2 Striking Appearance, now) would be your Marilyn Monroes, your Audrey Hepburns - and plenty of normal guys and gals who aren't famous. But less than 1% of the population - probably less than 1% of 1% - because COM 20 would be someone universally found attractive by all but the most argumentative of internet nerds

 

But keep in mind that, functionally, 18 COM and 20 COM are both +2 SA - and thus why the relative hotness of various celebrities are constantly discussed.

 

Now, to me, in recent memory, the cute doctor I worked with while on my business trip this week had about 17 COM, with an additional +3 bonus built as a inobvious, accessible focus (Lab Coat and Glasses)

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I skipped ahead in this thread because 20 COM, when naming names, is going to be different for each person. And is going to change with the times.

 

20 COM (or +2 Striking Appearance, now) would be your Marilyn Monroes, your Audrey Hepburns - and plenty of normal guys and gals who aren't famous. But less than 1% of the population - probably less than 1% of 1% - because COM 20 would be someone universally found attractive by all but the most argumentative of internet nerds

 

But keep in mind that, functionally, 18 COM and 20 COM are both +2 SA - and thus why the relative hotness of various celebrities are constantly discussed.

 

Now, to me, in recent memory, the cute doctor I worked with while on my business trip this week had about 17 COM, with an additional +3 bonus built as a inobvious, accessible focus (Lab Coat and Glasses)

 

Well, I think that's where "reality" and "cinematic realism" part ways--in cinema and comic books and genre fiction, attractiveness really can be universal. In reality, it's not. That's why I don't worry so much about whether or not, say, Angelina Jolie is found attractive by 99.6% of the population. She isn't. But the characters she often plays in films almost always are found attractive by virtually everyone in them. So I have no problem, if a player or GM tells me a character "looks like Angelina Jolie", with accepting that they've been assigned 2 or 3 or even 4 levels of Striking Appearance, because, cinematically, it makes sense.

Hero 6th is premised on simulating "cinematic realism", not "reality".

 

Still, all that said, the point of the thread is to solicit opinions of "who's a 20 COM in your eyes in the real world?"

[Kraven Kor]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I don't know enough celebrity names (since, generally, I don't much care about celebrity) but some that come to mind as having +3 or more SA would be Mila Kunis, Natalie Portman, Scarlett Johansenn, and Tina Fey. And I probably misspelled half those names.

 

There are several girls in my office, and several others in my social group, who I think easily have +2. I won't name them because that would just be creepy.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I'm tempted to say +3 or more SA should be referred to as "Stunning Appearance", because it's a near-automatic higher level of Presence attack effect for most people(3d6 over and above base PRE= base PRE roll +10, which means one level higher on the PRE attack chart). 6, 9 and 12 levels might similarly have "enhanced" adjectives such as "Awesome", "Unearthly", or "Breathtaking", etc. PRE+40 is basically "Elvis has left the building, the lights are on and no one's home, things are never going to be the same again" level of effect.

[megaplayboy]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I guess I'd pick Christina Hendricks as an example of "mixed" Striking Appearance: Real-world CH: +1(or 2) SA, +2 limited SA vs. guys who are into buxom redheads. The character she plays on Mad Men is at a thermonuclear level of hot. There's a certain infamous gif out there...

http://media.photobucket.com/image/mad%20men/some_saint/joan.gif?o=20

[Ragitsu]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Asses sure are popular these days.

[randian]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Asses sure are popular these days.

When were they ever out of favor?

[Kraven Kor]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I don't know, for a time there the waif look was everywhere - and some guys still call Christina Hendricks fat and are actually serious about it. Sick, I know, but there it is.

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I don't know' date=' for a time there the waif look was everywhere - and some guys still call Christina Hendricks [i']fat[/i] and are actually serious about it. Sick, I know, but there it is.

 

We have a word for these people: morons.

[GoldenAge]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

...The notion that people selected for their physical attractiveness are not physically attractive, is an odd one to me. The only real media celebrity I've met in real life has been Angelina Jolie. She was most definitely not photoshopped, nor perfectly groomed - in fact she was a wee bit dusty and sweaty enough for her top to stick to her (you may contemplate that thought, if you like ) She not only looked gorgeous, but if you scanned the crowd, she sort of "popped" out of the background: even when surrounded by people (which was pretty much all of the time) your eye tended to linger. I've met non-celebrities with the same sort of eye-catching effect .... but very rarely.

 

So yes, there are many very attractive non-celebrities. When you look at the population as a whole though, the balance tips the other way.

I believe you're describing the "it factor" here. I would wager that many "it" people have elevated levels of attractiveness, but what of other standoutout "it" people like, say, Gene Simmons (hardly a physical beauty), who also demand attention without specifically soliciting it? I believe here we have a nod back to the old D&D Charisma that included comeliness. No?

 

Edit: Mmmmmm, sweaty, sticky Angelina Jolie......

[randian]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Gene Simmons is (a) a man ( a singer © came to prominence in the 1970s. He most likely would not make it in today's media environment, because record labels today select talent based on looks as much as ability. Rock bands didn't have to be pretty in the 1970s, but they must today.

[dmjalund]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Gene Simmons is (a) a man ( a singer © came to prominence in the 1970s. He most likely would not make it in today's media environment' date=' because record labels today select talent based on looks as much as ability. Rock bands didn't have to be pretty in the 1970s, but they must today.[/quote']Also - he WAS heavily made up

[Markdoc]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

I believe you're describing the "it factor" here. I would wager that many "it" people have elevated levels of attractiveness, but what of other standoutout "it" people like, say, Gene Simmons (hardly a physical beauty), who also demand attention without specifically soliciting it? I believe here we have a nod back to the old D&D Charisma that included comeliness. No?

 

Edit: Mmmmmm, sweaty, sticky Angelina Jolie......

 

I'd call it PRE + COM. Some people I've met (Bill Clinton, Desmond Tutu) have the former, but not the latter. A larger number seem to have the latter but not the former (Tina Cross, lots of non-famous women and a few non-famous guys I have met: oddly and perhaps significantly, I don't think I've ever met anyone really famous like this) and a few lucky people have both.

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

Gene Simmons is (a) a man ( a singer © came to prominence in the 1970s. He most likely would not make it in today's media environment' date=' because record labels today select talent based on looks as much as ability. Rock bands didn't have to be pretty in the 1970s, but they must today.[/quote']

 

Also, money. Money has a Striking Appearance all if its own.

[Lucius]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

To me, Kirstie Alley looks like a Goddess - when she's got what I consider a decent amount of flesh on her.

 

When she's too skinny - the look she and apparently lots of other people prefer - she loses more than half my interest.

 

On the other hand, she's the only woman I know that I would describe that way. Not that I think women get uglier by gaining weight, but I don't know any others that got more physically substantial and made me think "Wow, she's beautiful now where she wasn't before."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if law enforcement packages should include "Arresting Appearance."

[Susano]

Re: What does a "20 Comeliness" look like to YOU?

 

At one point, the Kazei 5 PBEM discussed what it would be to meet, in the flesh, some of the PCs and NPCs in the setting. Several were 20+ COM, and one was a 24 (or 26, I forget.) We all agreed that Shion Nys, at 6'1", 170 lbs, with knee-length white hair, and a COM of 24 would physically intimidate all of us. We'd all find her incredibly attractive, but would have a hard time trying to simply talk to her.