NND and Entangle

[Hyper-Man]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

In the rulebook, if you drain someone's DEX to -30 they can't take any physical action... I would say that is as close to paralysis as you get.

 

It's also going to be an extremely high active point build as a 1-shot ability.

[Poison]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

Heck yeah. But to paralyze someone with one shot is very powerful...

 

They become a pinata...

[nexus]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

It's also going to be an extremely high active point build as a 1-shot ability.

 

Arguably, it really should be. Anyone but a mentalist is pretty boned especially if the GM decides it means the coup de grace rule is in effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

It's also going to be an extremely high active point build as a 1-shot ability.

 

Good. A one shot take down should be expensive. One shot to KO, one shot to reliably establish high end mind control, one shot to paralyze. All pretty much remove the target from the combat, and all should be expensive.

 

You can reduce the real cost by heavily limiting the power. Target takes no effect until reaching -30, for example, would (at least to me) justify a pretty high limitation on the power. And if you make it "target hits -30 DEX or nothing happens" ie next hit has to have enough effect to go straight from full DEX to -30 - that's an even greater limitation.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

Let me rephrase...

 

A paralysis ability built on the effects of having -30 DEX is going to have a significantly higher active cost than an equivalently effective Entangle with the BOECV Advantage.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

Allowing NND to have any effect on Entangle is one of the few 5th Edition rulings that I really disagree with. IMO, the impact of NND on an Entangle should be exactly the same as the effect of normal Defenses on Entangles without NND. Namely, none at all. Entangle doesn't work against any "Defense" because it doesn't do any damage.

[ghost-angel]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

I'm not sure the -30 DEX is completely required either.

 

It goes back to modeling "to reality despite itself" kind of thinking - or over thinking.

 

If all you want to do is remove the ability to move you can also reduce a target to 0 EGO (or even PRE). 0 SPD. 0" Movement. Grab & Hold Them In Place. (in lieu of Entangle.)

 

So, Drain EGO (or PRE). Drain SPD. Change Enviro with Negative Inches Movement (covering all movements is a bit expensive though). Or a massive Telekinesis: Only To Hold In Place.

 

could, with variations on the model and specifics of the build, be used to paralyze someone in place (either with muscle control loss, fear, nervous system failure or just plain brute strength).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

Let me rephrase...

 

A paralysis ability built on the effects of having -30 DEX is going to have a significantly higher active cost than an equivalently effective Entangle with the BOECV Advantage.

 

Once you're hit by a DEX Drain, you have fewer options of 'escaping' the effect than you would were you hit by a Mental Entangle. I still find this to be acceptable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

Let me rephrase...

 

A paralysis ability built on the effects of having -30 DEX is going to have a significantly higher active cost than an equivalently effective Entangle with the BOECV Advantage.

 

Does that mean the former would be overpriced or the latter would be underpriced?

 

If we assume a target with, say, a 26 DEX and an 18 Ego, the DEX supress needs to push DEX down by 56 points = 168 cp = 48d6 on average, or 240 AP, clearly very expensive. If we allow that "costs END only to activate" is +1/4, and makes the power Fire & Forget, we have a 300 AP power.

 

Now, we want a power that either paralyzes or has no impact at all, right? That makes it non-cumulative (call that -1/2) and "must reach -30 or no effect at all" (probably -2 - Suppressing a character to -15 DEX is still pretty effective), so we have a real cost of 86 points. The target is hit once and taken out until the DEX suppess is somehow eliminated. Presumably, that's by the terms of the Suppress itself - that Fire & Forget function needs a defined shutoff term.

 

For 86 points, I suspect I could get an entangle BoECV that would shut down an 18 Ego character fairly effectively as well. Of course, a normal Entangle with 6d6,11 Defense (85 points) will hold a lot of characters for a good long time as well. Each would be less useful against a different subset of possible targets.

 

While the AP of the Suppress would be quite high, powerful but highly limited effects are often quite high in AP compared to their real costs. Should it be easy and cheap to buy a one shot take out power?

[Tamashii2000]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

boy, didn't I just stir up a hornet nest?

 

A paralysis beam might be effectively done with either mental entangle (vs DCV ) or a drain of some sort (with heavy limitations)

 

What about cap chronos and his time bubble. Even the illegal construction really does not fit the power discription - as a bubble of stopped time should make the character not only unable to act -- but also make the target unable to be injured too (as any attack would just stop in the field)

 

So what would work better?

 

extra dimensional movement usable as an attack at range perhaps? to a dimension with out time? (legal..but cheesy)

[nexus]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

extra dimensional movement usable as an attack at range perhaps? to a dimension with out time? (legal..but cheesy)

 

EDM through Time (to some point in the future). Usable as an Attack with sfx the target is still there, frozen and invulnerable until they "return". Still kinda cheesy but it seems to fit the effect. One problem that leaps out is that there is no granularity. The attack could send the target a Turn into the future or a million years for the same cost.

[Tamashii2000]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

EDM through Time (to some point in the future). Usable as an Attack with sfx the target is still there' date=' frozen and invulnerable until they "return". Still kinda cheesy but it seems to fit the effect. One problem that leaps out is that there is no granularity. The attack could send the target a Turn into the future or a million years for the same cost.[/quote']

 

 

A little cheesy but it does seem to fit the bill.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

One problem that leaps out is that there is no granularity. The attack could send the target a Turn into the future or a million years for the same cost.

 

The Mystic World has an expanded write-up for Extra-Dimensional Movement that includes granularity for time travel depending on how wide a range of target time one wants. That seems like it would work fairly well for building the exact degree of this take on the power needed. (Might be hella expensive though, UAA on a time shift that can send one target forward up to 1 Turn would yield an 82 Active Point power, before you add in other advantages like Area Of Effect; the million year version would be 100 Active Points.)

[Tamashii2000]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

The Mystic World has an expanded write-up for Extra-Dimensional Movement that includes granularity for time travel depending on how wide a range of target time one wants. That seems like it would work fairly well for building the exact degree of this take on the power needed. (Might be hella expensive though' date=' UAA on a time shift that can send one target forward up to 1 Turn would yield an 82 Active Point power, before you add in other advantages like Area Of Effect; the million year version would be 100 Active Points.)[/quote']

 

Give the munchkins a chance and they will have that 100 active points down to 15 real in no time!

 

I had forgotten the mystic world.. that would work

[BNakagawa]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

extra dimensional movement usable as an attack at range perhaps? to a dimension with out time? (legal..but cheesy)

 

Nah, that doesn't work.

 

A paralyzed victim is still present. You could use one as a hostage. You could use one as cover. You could use mental powers on one and pick their brain for information.

 

And you shouldn't need to buy extradimensional on all of your powers just because you want to use them on a paralyzed target.

 

Legal, yes. Cheesy, most definitely. Accurate simulation? not so much.

[Arkham]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

The Captain Cronos one would, IMO, be most accuratly modeled by a EDM through time UAA NCC only the effects cannot be controlled -1/2 ( instead of the usual -1 ). Where they come out of the EDM whenever they are let out either by a time based power or other plot device. Perhaps include visible -1/4 to show that the target is still 'there' and let those with the know-how know where to do what they need to to release the target.

 

Of course it is still horribly unbalanced, as there is still next to nothing the target can do to avoid it. But at least while they are under the effects, they cannot be affected by anything external either.

 

The paralysis beam I would use Entangle BOECV, works against Con instead of STR, does not protect, targeting still requiring Dex instead of Ego since it is a beam after all, not an actual mental power.

[BNakagawa]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

So can you put a pair of handcuffs on a time stopped victim of this power while they are frozen in time? Do you need extradimensional handcuffs? Do their wrists become infinitely wide for the duration?

 

I really hate resorting to EDM every time you present the HERO system with something difficult.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

So can you put a pair of handcuffs on a time stopped victim of this power while they are frozen in time? Do you need extradimensional handcuffs? Do their wrists become infinitely wide for the duration?

 

I really hate resorting to EDM every time you present the HERO system with something difficult.

 

Unfortunately, when dealing with time powers, EDM is frequently the only alternative.

[Katherine]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

So can you put a pair of handcuffs on a time stopped victim of this power while they are frozen in time? Do you need extradimensional handcuffs? Do their wrists become infinitely wide for the duration?

 

I think with the EDM build the answer mechanically is No you can't effect the "frozen" character since they're not there in game terms. A GM could handwave that but it does make sense for a Time Stop Bubble. Nothing can enter the affected area but it wouldn't work perfectly for every sfx.

[Arkham]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

So can you put a pair of handcuffs on a time stopped victim of this power while they are frozen in time? Do you need extradimensional handcuffs? Do their wrists become infinitely wide for the duration?

 

I really hate resorting to EDM every time you present the HERO system with something difficult.

 

Well, if the special effect is as described, that the target is in a frozen time bubble, then no, you can't put handcuffs on them. You could wrap the entire bubble in a force wall if you wanted to, but you couldn't get to the person inside.

 

Perhaps the attack could be made sticky, so that if you do happen to force your way inside to put the handcuffs on, you yourself are shunted into the same time bubble with the original target.

[Kenn]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

The No Normal Defense Entangle made my head hurt.

 

I think this is a case where mechanic was mis-reasoned from effect. It's presumably physical, rather than mental, but STR isn't the right characteristic to use to break out of it. Why not just use "Target breaks free with CON instead of STR" (+1/2) or maybe "BODY instead of STR"?

[Phoenix]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

Has anyone thought of just building this as a Speed Drain with a looong recovery time? It may not be the one-hit-wonder power your looking for, but it will make anybody's day more challenging.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

Any Adjustment vs. SPD gets expensive really quick as the effect roll has to be in the 10-30 point range to do anything to begin with.

 

Here's a basic Suppress as an example:

 

50 Suppress 10d6 (standard effect: 30 points) 5

[Phoenix]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

60 2d6 SPD Drain, Ranged (+1/2), Max Effect +40, Recovery Rate 5 Pt/Turn [6 END]

 

It's Slow, but it could get the job done.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: NND and Entangle

 

Part of the problem, IMO, is the desire to have this be a one shot KO. Yes, it is expensive to reduce someone's SPD to nil or otherwise prevent them from moving, for an extended period of time.

 

It should be.

 

This removes the character from the battle just as effectively as turning him to a toad, knocking him out or Mind Controlling/Mental Illusioning him at a+30 level with substantial penalties to the breakout roll. Achieving any of those results reliably with a single shot is expensive. The paralysis beam should be no cheaper.