Blocking - What's the point?

[Gunrunner]

So if I block, I get to go first in the next phase regardless of my DEX against my attacker (if we share the same phase). Compare this to if I don't block, then I get an extra attack (the one I would have lost from blocking) AND I would get to attack him before he attacks me, because I still have the attack I haven't used to block. Even if he attacks me first, I would still get to attack him next before he attacks me a second time.

 

Now, I understand that blocking would be useful if someone has a high OCV and low DCV as a form of defense, but even then, wouldn't you have to block every time to avoid getting hit?

 

So I ask: what's the point of using the Block maneuver? There seems to be no benefit except if you just don't want to hurt your attacker.

[jtelson]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Block can keep a high damage low OCV opponent tied up until the rest of your team is available to help put him down.

 

If you have a higher speed Block negates your opponents attacks leaving you with open actions

 

If you have a lower speed you can block multiple attacks from an opponent (at -2 per) helping you to regain or retain initiative, let's call it tempo rather than initiative to avoid confusion.

 

If you are faced with muliple opponents you can negate multiple attacks with a single action (again at -2 per)

 

Actions are the currency of combat - Block due to it's ability to negate actions or multiple actions at a cost of 1 action can be very useful.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

To see the true value of the Block maneuver it has to be weighed against using the more commonly used Dodge maneuver (and to a lesser extent the optional ability to Dive For Cover).

 

Both are intended to keep a character from taking damage in situations where "I can't take another hit like that!".

 

Dodge is usually more effective at this part alone.

 

However, as you already pointed out, if the opponent has a higher DEX then Block presents an opportunity to gain initiative vs. that opponent briefly. Your character then might have a chance to Stun or KO the opponent before they can attack again.

 

Dodge = an attempt to not lose a fight by not fighting at all.

Block = an attempt to gain initiative at the risk of losing an action.

 

HM

 

You also might want to take a look at the link my sig below on a similar subject:

Alternate defensive maneuver names free of implied sfx

[ghost-angel]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

That, and sometimes it just looks cool to block someone's incoming attack...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

So if I block, I get to go first in the next phase regardless of my DEX against my attacker (if we share the same phase). Compare this to if I don't block, then I get an extra attack (the one I would have lost from blocking) AND I would get to attack him before he attacks me, because I still have the attack I haven't used to block. Even if he attacks me first, I would still get to attack him next before he attacks me a second time.

 

Now, I understand that blocking would be useful if someone has a high OCV and low DCV as a form of defense, but even then, wouldn't you have to block every time to avoid getting hit?

 

So I ask: what's the point of using the Block maneuver? There seems to be no benefit except if you just don't want to hurt your attacker.

 

You seem to be overlooking a major point in your analysis . You see, if you don’t block (or dodge or otherwise “waste” an attack) there is a good chance you will get hit. Now, when you get hit it is highly probable that you will take damage, sometimes enough damage to Stun you, which makes you lose an action anyway. Now if you block successfully, you take no damage. That’s the point to using the Block maneuver. There are other benefits, but the main point is avoiding damage. If you don’t understand that I’m wondering what your strategy is. Do you just run up to the enemy and keep hitting them hoping they fall down first and take every single hit they throw at you even if you are outnumbered or they are more powerful? That may work for bricks, but most martial artist, speedsters, weapon's masters, et cetera will be splatted by slower more powerful opponents if they just stand there and get hit over and over again.

 

Even if he attacks me first, I would still get to attack him next before he attacks me a second time.

This statement is technically accurate, but seems to miss the point. If he hits you, yes, you get to hit him back before he hits you again (unless he stuns you, knocks you out, grabs you, or a number of other options), but you still take damage. Now if you block you take no damage and get to hit him before he has a chance to hit you at all (not “again”) and you may stun, knock out, et cetera, him. You see no practical application for this?

[Trebuchet]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Block applies OCV vs OCV rather than the usual OCV vs DCV. This can shift the odds of success considerably, especially if the opponent has levels rather than inherently higher DEX and/or SPD.

 

Block also lets you defend another character; something no form of Dodge allows. We've used it many times in our Champions campaign to defend a fallen or Stunned comrade.

[secretID]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

To see the true value of the Block maneuver it has to be weighed against using the more commonly used Dodge maneuver (and to a lesser extent the optional ability to Dive For Cover).

I think this is the issue - block vs. dodge, not block vs. attack. Most (all?) of the justifications given here for block would apply to dodge, and I think dodge is better than block and missile deflect. I'm not saying there's no theoretical application, but I don't think they're nearly as useful as dodge/dive. The cumulative penalty is what really kills it for me.

 

The martial blocks are better, of course, but I don't think they compare to flying dodge, which is awesome.

[secretID]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Block also lets you defend another character; something no form of Dodge allows. We've used it many times in our Champions campaign to defend a fallen or Stunned comrade.

That's the one clearly good use of block/missile deflect that I can think of. The game really has to have a mechanic for it.

[Gunrunner]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Okay, that makes more sense. Thank you for the replies!

[Eosin]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

There are a number of good reasons listed. Mine are as follows:

 

• Can change tempo
  
• Can block for a friend
  
• Lets you use that +4 OCV with Swords (higher OCV than DCV)
  
• Hopefully, using a block prevents you from being taken out of combat.
  
• Block mechanic is nifty in that even if you miss the block, your attacker still has to hit.
  

 

The decision to Block, Dodge, Dive For Cover, Roll-with-Blow, or slugging it out is always one of tactical analysis. If you can muster a higher OCV than DCV - block. Even if your OCV is higher and you are looking at 3-4 incoming attacks - dodge. Etc... Each particular use needs to be measured.

 

Sacrificing an action is always a penalizing option - always. You can't win with a dodge, block, or dive for cover, but it can keep you in the game or allow your team to handle the dirty work.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Something else to consider is the effect of END in a fight. If your opponent uses END faster than he recovers it and doesn't have massive amounts to start with, making him use up END on wasted attacks that do no damage to you early in the fight can put you in an advantageous position several phases down the line.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

If a character has a high OCV and a low DCV, then Block gives them better odds of success. You can also keep blocking, at a cumulative penalty, which can allow characters of a certain build pattern to "block stop" opponents until they blow a roll.

 

Block vs Dodge, Dodge is usually better. Martial Block vs Martial Dodge, not so clear cut. Also, there are other maneuvers like Counterstrike that Must Follow Block that opens up some interesting possibilities.

 

Characters with a Damage Shield benefit from Block.

 

You can use Block to protect someone else.

 

Edge case, but Block can, without GM veto, stop some AoE effects based on SFX (like 'Big Fists') which Dodge is useless against.

 

You can Block while at 1/2 DCV due to some other circumstance.

 

In heroic campaigns particularly where everyone has nearly the same SPD and DEX, its a big equalizer if facing a relatively equal foe who happens to have higher DEX or lighting reflexes.

 

Etc. Bottom line, there are case where Block is tactically smarter, and cases where its not the right option. It's all in the circumstances and the timing.

[GoldenAge]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

A super-powered martial arts fight without Block is like playing Champions without a single d6!

 

If played adroitly, the beauty of a physical chess match between two highly skilled melee experts is wonderful to behold. Two commensurate martial artists going toe-to-toe in a dance of death requires, nay, demands the use of Block. The issue is compounded when one combatant has a slightly higher SPEED (say 5 v. 6). It then falls to the craft of the SPEED 5 player to carefully plot his Blocks, Strikes and Counter-Strikes in order to win the day.

 

There is also the Brick standard of Interposing (a vehicle or captured opponent) which is essentially a Block and a staple of the Brick combat repertoire (at least in my games).

[Rapier]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

I'm playing a little chinese girl wielding a spoon and wearing my school uniform.

 

We are fighting astro-vikings from the future of the planet Xon. The vikings are wielding electro-vibro-laser-axes and wearing singularity forged iron mined from asteroids at the center of the universe.

 

If a viking lands a blow, I die.

 

If I block, he doesn't hit. It's as simple as that. I can block every single swing and he can't do any damage. It doesn't matter that my attack has MAYBE 5 Active Points and his has 150. He can't hit.

 

You can't get bogged down in the "I must do damage every phase" mentality. It's very easy in Hero System to fall into this trap of standing toe to toe with your opponent and slugging it out trading blows. Even without Martial Arts, the Standard Maneuvers offer a wealth of extremely useful options for any combat.

 

Granted, in a Galactic Champions game where DCVs might be running into the 40s, a +3 for Dodging isn't really going to be that much help. But for most of the standard level and lower of heroes those few additional maneuvers can make the difference between life and death.

[pinecone]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

I think this is the issue - block vs. dodge, not block vs. attack. Most (all?) of the justifications given here for block would apply to dodge, and I think dodge is better than block and missile deflect. I'm not saying there's no theoretical application, but I don't think they're nearly as useful as dodge/dive. The cumulative penalty is what really kills it for me.

 

The martial blocks are better, of course, but I don't think they compare to flying dodge, which is awesome.

 

Well. beyond the "Go first" thang is a little thing Martial artists call "Counter strike", one of the finest strike moves you can spend a few points on....

 

Or if you read the thread before posting, check out KS...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

That' date=' and sometimes it just looks cool to block someone's incoming attack...[/quote']

 

Well, unless your block looks like a dodge....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

So if I block, I get to go first in the next phase regardless of my DEX against my attacker (if we share the same phase). Compare this to if I don't block, then I get an extra attack (the one I would have lost from blocking) AND I would get to attack him before he attacks me, because I still have the attack I haven't used to block. Even if he attacks me first, I would still get to attack him next before he attacks me a second time.

 

Now, I understand that blocking would be useful if someone has a high OCV and low DCV as a form of defense, but even then, wouldn't you have to block every time to avoid getting hit?

 

So I ask: what's the point of using the Block maneuver? There seems to be no benefit except if you just don't want to hurt your attacker.

 

Block allows you to block an incoming attack, but dodge is usually a better way to avoid damage (unless you have growth).

 

Why bother?

 

Well in a one on one fight, there is little point in defensive moves. Unless you take your opponent down, you are going to lose, no matter how often and how well you block OR dodge.

 

If you have a SPD advantage, there might be some advantage - you can possibly negate the damage an opponent can do to you whilst still being able to deal damage of your own.

 

If you are in a team fighting a smaller number of opponents, you use defensive maneouvres if attacked, and the team members who are not attacked use attacks. You might need to save END, or keep an opponent occupied, or whatever.

 

But why block, (and specifically why block as opposed to dodge?), if there is a good reason for a defensive maneouvre?

 

You go first next time, but you would have attacked earlier if you had not blocked. You (usually) have as good a chance to block as to hit.

 

Martial block is a pretty good defensive option, but I agree, blocking is usually a largely pointless move if you want to win. Generally, if there is a point to a defensive manouvre, then dodge is a better bet.

 

There is 'looking good' or 'character concept', but, unfortunately, as block and dodge have no specific sfx, you can make a dodge look like a block, if all you care about is image.

 

Generally, the best and sometimes ONLY good reason to block is blocking for someone (or something) else. A phalanx with the front row having every other soldier attack and the rest block can be devastatingly effective.

 

Of course all this is because statistically it is more efficient to attack than block. Mind you a player is often in a much better position to judge statistics than an actual character.

 

You can certainly build games in which blocking is a good idea, but generallly, you are right - it is often a poor second choice.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Here is a graph showing the probabilities of the attacker hitting. The x-axis shows the attacker's OCV minus the defender's CV. For this exercise I assumed the defender's OCV and DCV are the same. Having them different complicates matters a bit. I may throw up another chart that shows a few samples, but the general case turns into a three-dimensional problem. Anyway, enjoy.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Here is a graph showing the probabilities of the attacker hitting. The x-axis shows the attacker's OCV minus the defender's CV. For this exercise I assumed the defender's OCV and DCV are the same. Having them different complicates matters a bit. I may throw up another chart that shows a few samples' date=' but the general case turns into a three-dimensional problem. Anyway, enjoy.[/quote']

 

 

Nice. IIRC there is a break point where (depending on relative OCV/DCV) it is better statistically to block than dodge, but I'd have to think about that, and I was planning to have a beer instead of doing any thinking

[jtelson]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Here is a graph showing the probabilities of the attacker hitting. The x-axis shows the attacker's OCV minus the defender's CV. For this exercise I assumed the defender's OCV and DCV are the same. Having them different complicates matters a bit. I may throw up another chart that shows a few samples' date=' but the general case turns into a three-dimensional problem. Anyway, enjoy.[/quote']

 

Does the Chance to hit while opponent is blocking curve take into account not just the chance of block success but also that the attacker still needs to successfully hit?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Does the Chance to hit while opponent is blocking curve take into account not just the chance of block success but also that the attacker still needs to successfully hit?

 

Yes. The probability of the attacker hitting is equal to the probability that the attacker's roll succeeds times the probability that the defender's roll fails.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Here's another graph for just Block. The x-axis is the attacker's OCV minus the defender's DCV. Each line shows a different value for the defender's OCV (relative to his/her DCV). I only showed 5 possibilities. I'm sure from there you can infer the general trend.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

You can Block while at 1/2 DCV due to some other circumstance.

 

You can't Dodge while at half DCV?

[jtelson]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

Yes. The probability of the attacker hitting is equal to the probability that the attacker's roll succeeds times the probability that the defender's roll fails.

 

I must be slow tonight - it was obvious looking at it if I'd given it any thought.

 

So so long as your attacker doesn't outclass you by more than 1 OCV block seems the way to go for damage avoidance; Another reason for block on top of those listed earlier.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Blocking - What's the point?

 

You can't Dodge while at half DCV?

 

Sure you can, but the bonus from the maneuver is halved as well.

 

Block is unaffected by DCV halving because it is OCV based.