schir1964 Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I think the reason that Marcus feels... kicked while's down' date=' so to speak... is that eventually the pro-COM group settled around a 'let's compromise and make COM optional' stance. The anti-COM crowd stayed pretty vehemently "No, it must GO!" to the end...[/quote'] No, this is not true. I was the one who proposed the idea of COM being an optional Characteristic as a possible alternative near the beginning of my posts. Only later, did the some of those in favor of COM state that they would find that alternative tolerable (and seemingly begrudgingly so as far as the way they posted). There were a couple who were open to the idea when I explained it to them. I'll be happy to search and find those posts I made when and put the links here if you need to read them again. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far The problem is that they aren't saying there a no well designed mechaincs' date=' they are saying there are [i']no[/i] mechanics. Likewise, they do not say that they do not use it, they say no one uses it; that it has no function rather than little function. I get tired of hearing it. Am I being overly critical? Perhaps. But come on, how hard is it to say "I never used COM" - which is likely true - as opposed to "No one used COM" - which is obviously false. Unless Nexus, Steamteck, Balabanto (for all his problems with it being abused, at least his players used it) and I - not to mention our entire gaming groups - are suddely 'no one', which is frankly kind of insulting. Or at least misleading and frustrating hyperbole similar to "Figured characteristics are being removed in 6th edition" versus "the concept of figured Characteristics is being removed in 6th edition" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhaierr Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Here's my take: 1) The changes listed in the original post mostly make sense to me, so I'm not upset by any of it. (I wonder how decoupling will affect the character building stage, but I'm waiting to see 6E.) 2) The changes listed are very quick blurbs and summaries that are taken outside of the context of the text, so something that might seem to not make a lot of sense could be much more sensible when surrounded by context. There is a LOT of information that we're missing here. Think of the summaries as a trailer to a movie. You only get a teeny sliver of the film that tells you the premise. It's very hard to review a film by only watching its trailer. I propose that it's the same for a new edition of a RPG system. My advice to everyone is to relax, wait until you (or other people in the forums) actually have the book to review it, and then make your judgments. At least hear the case for the new changes before strapping them into the electric chair. No one likes to be judged before they've had a chance to defend themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far The problem is that they aren't saying there a no well designed mechaincs' date=' they are saying there are [i']no[/i] mechanics. Likewise, they do not say that they do not use it, they say no one uses it; that it has no function rather than little function. I get tired of hearing it. Am I being overly critical? Perhaps. But come on, how hard is it to say "I never used COM" - which is likely true - as opposed to "No one used COM" - which is obviously false. Unless Nexus, Steamteck, Balabanto (for all his problems with it being abused, at least his players used it) and I - not to mention our entire gaming groups - are suddely 'no one', which is frankly kind of insulting. And as I said previously, pointing out that in the core rules Com has no direct effect isn't the same as saying that no one uses it for anything. And I can't really blame people for using shorthand like "it doesn't do anything" since Steve in his opening about it stated "COM doesn’t do anything at all in game terms, unlike all the other Characteristics." Personally I'd've been happier with Com staying in the game as a Characteristic rather than having its name changed and being turned into a Talent. But I'm not heartbroken that it is happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schir1964 Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Optional stats is not a viable compromise' date=' at least in a main book. Tossed into a book of optional rules, sure.[/quote'] Now you see' date=' if someone had said [i']this[/i] in the great COM debate, I would have said "Oh. I see your point then." And it might have saved a great deal of trouble arguing for a compromise. I did, multiple times. I didn't use the word "compromise", but it was one of my main efforts to try to help those in favor of COM. But in the Great COM Debate' date=' that was never said, so I stand by our side as the reasonable one. WE were willing to move toward a compromise, while the anti-COM crowd was NOT.[/quote'] Again, not true. A successful negotiation implies a conculsion where everyone got at least some of what they wanted... Well this was your mistake in thinking there was a negotiation going on. There wasn't and I'm not sure why you thought there was, but it does explain your frustration. - Christopher Mullins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far ONE WARNING This is the ONLY warning that is going to be issued on this: posts in this thread are getting heated. More specifically, they are becoming extremely insulting towards both members of these forums and the owners of this company. This will NOT be tolerated. You are welcome to debate, so long as you keep it civil. Insult other members, and you will be infracted. I will see to it that you are infracted in such a way as to make the remainder of your posts go into a moderation queue, requiring review by the moderation staff prior to going live to the public. This will effectively remove you from this rapidly progressing conversation. Insult owners of the company and you will find yourself unwelcome on these forums (read: banned). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Or at least misleading and frustrating hyperbole similar to "Figured characteristics are being removed in 6th edition" versus "the concept of figured Characteristics is being removed in 6th edition" Eh, that's less hyperbole than just poorly worded. The "figured" part of Figured Characteristics is being dumped. The characteristics themselves are staying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulcan Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I'm going to keep asking this. Who specifically gave this "Mantra" that "... so it must GO!". If accusations like this are going to be made about a general group of people, I'm going to want specific names and who you are including in this group. - Christopher Mullins I don't know if I have that kind of time... The Main Man was one, although he was at least polite about it. If I recall correctly, your position was 'Can't we come up with a compromise?" which - once I understood what you were angling for (I'm kinda slow on the uptake at times) - I heartily endorsed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Fixed that for you. Unappreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Let's have a minute of silence for COM and get on with our lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Let's have a minute of silence for COM and get on with our lives. OK now that we've got that out of the way, what's next. How do people think the liberation of the formerly figured characteristics will effect character advancement, specifically in regards to XP awards? Since we have no information at all, this should be fun... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Let's have a minute of silence for COM and get on with our lives. Should we have a wake at GenCon? Y'know, sit around, have a few drinks, tell funny COM-related stories from old campaigns, try to guess each other's COM ratings (but only after enough drinks have been consumed), etc. We could even pitch in and order a wreath to be hung at the Hero Games booth (OK, OK, maybe that's going a bit too far). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far OK now that we've got that out of the way, what's next. How do people think the liberation of the formerly figured characteristics will effect character advancement, specifically in regards to XP awards? Since we have no information at all, this should be fun... INCOMING!!! TAKE COVER!!! Actually, that's a good question. With the expected increase of recommended starting points, will the guidelines for awarding XPs per session also need to be inflated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajackson Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Actually' date=' that's a good question. With the expected increase of recommended starting points, will the guidelines for awarding XPs per session also need to be inflated?[/quote'] Doubtful. The resolution of character point awards is pretty low, and I doubt the bump in point values will be big enough to merit the equivalent of +1 xp per adventure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far INCOMING!!! TAKE COVER!!! Actually, that's a good question. With the expected increase of recommended starting points, will the guidelines for awarding XPs per session also need to be inflated? I'm not sure how much attention a lot of GMs pay to the XP award guidelines. It seems many of them just give out a number that feels right to them based on what happened in the session and the speed of advancement they want in their campaigns. The guidelines are also slightly problematic when you're running a less focused campaign where a session may not focus on a single plotline but jump around from one story to another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Doubtful. The resolution of character point awards is pretty low' date=' and I doubt the bump in point values will be big enough to merit the equivalent of +1 xp per adventure.[/quote'] Really? How big a bump do you estimate would have to occur for an increase to be needed? Asking out of curiosity, not as a challenge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Squirrel Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far All the other Characteristics will remain, but none of them will be "Figured," i.e. derived from other Characteristics. They'll all start with a base value that must be bought up separately. The costs of some of them have been "tweaked" -- no further details yet. OCV, DCV, OECV, and DECV will become separate Characteristics, not derived from DEX and EGO. They'll start with a base value of 3 and will be bought up separately. This should be enough of a change that I can convince my housemate to start playing Hero. She hates math and complicated systems. Also the impact this has on things like Drain is wonderful. This makes things so much simpler to figure out and calculate mid-game. I have to admit that I like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NestorDRod Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I'm not sure how much attention a lot of GMs pay to the XP award guidelines. It seems many of them just give out a number that feels right to them based on what happened in the session and the speed of advancement they want in their campaigns. The guidelines are also slightly problematic when you're running a less focused campaign where a session may not focus on a single plotline but jump around from one story to another. Good point. Heck, last couple of games I played, I didn't even bother keeping track of XP awards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nexus Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far Good point. Heck' date=' last couple of games I played, I didn't even bother keeping track of XP awards. [/quote'] I give out experience according to a complicated formula based on the amount of M and Ms and pizza the players bring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I give out experience according to a complicated formula based on the amount of M and Ms and pizza the players bring. Just in general, or the amount they give to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtelson Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I give out experience according to a complicated formula based on the amount of M and Ms and pizza the players bring. You're lucky, all I ever get are W and W's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far I would tend to say not really not but I'd like to see a little more advice put into it. Maybe in the advanced character guide more detailed XP guides. We use xp points actually which are worth 1/10th character points ourselves and award them for individual neat things the playerdoes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far This should be enough of a change that I can convince my housemate to start playing Hero. She hates math and complicated systems. . everything is perception. my wife and the rest of my group flat out told they weren't going to switch because it sounded like it made character creation much more complicated ( and illogical but that's another story) . With the possibility of recoupling with unified power, if I recouple for her and the group and they don't have to mess with it. they're more open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archermoo Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far everything is perception. my wife and the rest of my group flat out told they weren't going to switch because it sounded like it made character creation much more complicated ( and illogical but that's another story) . With the possibility of recoupling with unified power' date=' if I recouple for her and the group and they don't have to mess with it. they're more open.[/quote'] And see, I still can't really wrap my head around the idea that somehow people think of decoupling as adding complication rather than removing it. It makes no sense to me. Granted there are overall 3 more Characteristics to purchase, but with them decoupled you just buy them at the level you want and don't have to worry about figuring in how high you bought other Characteristics changing anything. I suppose if someone not only never changed their Figureds from their base, and never even looked at them I could almost see a claim for added complication. But that still seems pretty thin, at least to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balabanto Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Re: 6E Rules changes confirmed so far INCOMING!!! TAKE COVER!!! Actually, that's a good question. With the expected increase of recommended starting points, will the guidelines for awarding XPs per session also need to be inflated? Actually, my answer to that question is a resounding "No!" There is no need to make people advance faster than they already do. In fact, a slower advancement rate might actually promote mastery of the system. If you gain XP too quickly, the curve might bend a little too fast. In some games XP gain isn't even noticable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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