CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[BBstacker]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't think mega-crossovers define an "Age" of comics. I think they're just an example of crappy editorial decisionmaking and marketing departments wielding too much sway over comic book content. Crappy editing and marketing mismanagement are' date=' sadly, evident in every Age of comics, I'm sure. [/quote']

 

Sad, but true. All I ask for is a listing of all the major teams( with names, of course) and the locations of where they are, I'm happy as a tick on a bloodhound!

 

oh, yeah and bring back Seeker, Please? Love him or hate him he is kinda a staple in the champions universe:yes:

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't think mega-crossovers define an "Age" of comics. I think they're just an example of crappy editorial decisionmaking and marketing departments wielding too much sway over comic book content. Crappy editing and marketing mismanagement are' date=' sadly, evident in every Age of comics, I'm sure. [/quote']

 

I would argue that mega-crossovers aren't so much inherently crappy so much as they are horribly overdone today.This does make me think that it would be neat to see a Golden, Silver, Bronze, and Iron Age version of the same character.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Sad, but true. All I ask for is a listing of all the major teams( with names, of course) and the locations of where they are, I'm happy as a tick on a bloodhound!

 

Sorry, but that's not Champions material -- that's Champions Universe material. This is a genre book, so it doesn't focus on a specific setting.

 

 

oh, yeah and bring back Seeker, Please? Love him or hate him he is kinda a staple in the champions universe

 

Sorry, not happening, outside of Cryptic telling me I have to.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What if each archetype is describing described not only in general but also discussed by age and style? (Golden, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Teen, Galactic).

 

On another archetype note, CoH/V and M&M presented "Supervillain" Archetypes, which could be something for Champions 6e to explore.

 

 

And on another age note, what if the quick superhuman generator was made to accommodate the recommended power levels for each age?

 

This should hopefully be easy though, since Champions 5e recommended the Golden and Silver ages at rather similar power levels versus the Bronze and Iron Ages at respectively similar power levels.

[assault]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

This should hopefully be easy though' date=' since Champions 5e recommended the Golden and Silver ages at rather similar power levels versus the Bronze and Iron Ages at respectively similar power levels.[/quote']

 

Yes... about that... I can't see any real reason why Golden and Silver Age characters should be built on lower point levels than later ones. While it's arguable that some characters exhibited fewer skills than later ones, the actual power levels aren't that different.

 

Of course, starting level characters are much less impressive than more experienced ones - but that isn't particularly relevant outside a campaign where characters are carried across from one "age" to another.

 

Basically, keeping it in the same company, why should the starting versions of the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man or Thor be built on fewer points than the staring versions of Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm or Colossus?

 

Incidentally, Supergirl is an ideal example of a starting Silver Age character. If you can build her on starting points, everyone else is easy. (Her early stories have been reprinted.)

[Jhamin]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I strongly agree with Lord Lidden's early post saying that the Genre book really needs examples for different kinds of characters at different power levels. It is one thing to say that Hero is a universal system, but it is another to actually give examples of characters that would be at home in Daredevil Comic *and* characters that would be at home in a Silver Surfer comic. Then a short discussion of how and why they are build differently. This would let you really dig into the philosophy of how and why you build the Green Goblin and Brainiac differently, even though they are both Super Villains.

 

I'd also love to see some kind of of listing of common genre "Campaign frameworks". Not mini-campaigns, but common startign points for games. Stuff like "live in a mansion & get called on the monitor screen when Molemen attack" or "Patrol a borough of New York because the people need protectors" or "Live in a school for young Supers". How they work and what the pro/cons of each are for a game. This is very much a part of the genre bits section, but a section like this would really help many newer players start a game.

 

It may also be useful to actually spend a few paragraphs talking about "OK, now that we have laid out your many options in Superheroic gaming, here is the Champions Setting and here are the choices that Hero Games has made for our published setting". This would hopefully further ground people in how character creation around a specific setting and power level works.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I don't think mega-crossovers define an "Age" of comics. I think they're just an example of crappy editorial decisionmaking and marketing departments wielding too much sway over comic book content.

Well' date=' [i']I[/i] enjoy them.

 

And regardless of how one feels about it, a few paragraphs on handling this sort of thing in an RPG setting would be nice -- especially how to handle a massive battle with dozens of superhumans, as typically happens at the climax of such stories. (They can also happen in other types of stories, such as Kingdom Come.)

[ajackson]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

In any case, Mega-Crossovers have been a feature of the genre during a period that's clearly Iron Age, unless you think Crisis on Infinite Earths and Secret Wars don't count.

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Yes... about that... I can't see any real reason why Golden and Silver Age characters should be built on lower point levels than later ones. While it's arguable that some characters exhibited fewer skills than later ones, the actual power levels aren't that different.

 

Of course, starting level characters are much less impressive than more experienced ones - but that isn't particularly relevant outside a campaign where characters are carried across from one "age" to another.

 

Basically, keeping it in the same company, why should the starting versions of the Fantastic Four, Spider-Man or Thor be built on fewer points than the staring versions of Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm or Colossus?

 

Incidentally, Supergirl is an ideal example of a starting Silver Age character. If you can build her on starting points, everyone else is easy. (Her early stories have been reprinted.)

 

Gotta give that one to you.

 

It did not in fact sit right with me that Golden/Silver Age characters were built with fewer points than Bronze/Iron Age characters when in many cases (especially the Silver Age) they exhibited some clearly greater levels of competency and power than in later times (especially DC).

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

In any case' date=' Mega-Crossovers have been a feature of the genre during a period that's clearly Iron Age, unless you think [i']Crisis on Infinite Earths [/i]and Secret Wars don't count.

 

Some argue that they were a part of the turning point into the Iron Age along with the deconstruction works such as Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns.

 

 

Similarly, a couple of characteristics of the current (if not contested) age that I can identify are:

 

- A sense of reconstronstruction rather than deconstruction - which can be traced back to Grant Morrison's run on JLA.

 

- Greater emphasis on writers rather than artists.

 

- A stylistic recession from the grim and grittiness of the mid-80's through the (at least) mid-90's to something decidedly more lighthearted, but not quite as lighthearted as, say, the Silver Age.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

On another archetype note' date=' CoH/V and M&M presented "Supervillain" Archetypes, which could be something for Champions 6e to explore.[/quote']

 

IMO that's a worthwhile point to consider. Much as players may need help defining the type of hero they want, GMs might benefit from suggestions as to the type of opponent they want to run against the PCs. Not so much character design concepts (which would mostly fall within the familiar Brick/Speedster/Gadgeteer/etc. categories), but the roles that various types of villains fill: crimelord, mad scientist, evil corporate head, leader of a country, mercenary/bounty hunter, obsessed "theme" villain like a collector or game-player, dangerous but honorable rival, hero's mirror image, and so on.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Champions already has a pretty extensive discussion of villains -- power levels, archetypes, etc. -- and that's about where it's going to stay in the new edition.

 

All this discussion of mega-crossovers has, however, given me a fiendishly clever idea for a convention scenario.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

A huge section on Adventures, Encounters, and ways to integrate Disadvantages.

 

Elements from Scott Bennie's Villainy Amok and Aaron Allston's Champions. Only more. The Day After Ragnarok had a great many "Heroic Helper" Top Fives, but I want to see Top 25 as in 25yrs of Hero System.

 

Adventure Generation:

The Hook

Location

Hero Goals

Villain

Villain's Goals

Henchmen

Victim

Guest Star

Guest Star's Goals

Obstacles

Twist

 

 

Or a how to Write a Character Background (Some of us have lost our way)

 

 

QM

[casualplayer]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Something that has been delved into a time or two but never satisfyingly enough for me is how might superpowers and the legal system interact, something that I think would be right up your alley. That interaction is a very important aspect of a number of comics from Thunderbolt Ross domestically using military powers to chase the Hulk across the American Southwest to the The X-Men going from a secret society working with the government to being harrassed by that same government to the Avengers and the Justice League having UN charters and international police powers. There's Batman and Punisher's "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" relationship with the police. One of the things that is hardest to swallow about some Iron Age comics is that the law is disregarded or pure Keystone Cops while some of the best, IMO, show the lawmen as a Thin Blue Line and an asset to have as an ally.

 

With the 75 disad, excuse me complications, structure for character creation these days, stressing building in genre-strong character hooks to get the character in the game might be nice. Most complications chosen are reactive; if this happens then I take extra damage, go Berserk, squeal like a little girl or throw myself on the grenade. Encouraging proactive complications can go a long ways toward making the GM's life easier and the player's interaction more lively. Having an Aunt May means that she can rent a room to Doc Ock and lead to a multi-issue arc! Having complications like this means the GM can lead your character around by the nose but you have to trust they are going to lead you somewhere good.

[Steve Long]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Something that has been delved into a time or two but never satisfyingly enough for me is how might superpowers and the legal system interact, something that I think would be right up your alley.

 

It is, which is why I wrote on the subject at great length in Stronghold. Not going to reprint any of that in Champions, though, beyond more or less what it's already got on the topic.

 

If what's in Stronghold isn't satisfying enough for ya, I'm afraid you're out of luck. AFAIK it's the most comprehensive treatment of the subject ever written, and I don't think there's much more to be said without descending into levels of detail that would bore most readers. ("Your honor, as you can see, the rule of ejusdem generis applies here....")

 

I think, though, based on your comments that what you want is a discussion of the interaction of superheroes and governmental authority, which is a different issue. While I don't necessarily agree with some of your charaterizations of the possiiblities, that might be worth a touch more discussion in the book than it already has. Bears thinking about, anyways.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

- A stylistic recession from the grim and grittiness of the mid-80's through the (at least) mid-90's to something decidedly more lighthearted' date=' but not quite as lighthearted as, say, the Silver Age.[/quote']I'd say, offhand, that the new attitude is one of hope, reduced cynicism, and rediscovered sense of wonder. Also, I've noted a greater willingness to actually pass on "Legacy" heroes, even if the former heroes are still around in some function, at least at DC (Batman and Flash especially). And at least Marvel, if not DC, seems to be marching time alongside the real world; I think Valiant has been doing that from the start, or at least said it would.

 

If I were to define this "Copper Age," I'd probably have it sourced in Astro City, Infinite Crisis, Civil Wars, and the founding of Valiant.

 

As for the Champions book, such an idea would probably warrant no more than a paragraph or two, if that, since there's no real consensus on even its existence.

It is' date=' which is why I wrote on the subject at great length in [i']Stronghold.[/i] Not going to reprint any of that in Champions, though, beyond more or less what it's already got on the topic.

 

If what's in Stronghold isn't satisfying enough for ya, I'm afraid you're out of luck. AFAIK it's the most comprehensive treatment of the subject ever written, and I don't think there's much more to be said without descending into levels of detail that would bore most readers.

Actually, the only thing I'd consider actually "missing" from that section is a list of grounds for objections that trial attorneys can use. I had a Perry Mason computer game once (back in the DOS days) that included such a list. If you ever have reason to reprint that bit -- and I agree that Champions is not really a place for something that detailed -- you might consider that.

 

(Personally, if I'd been doing it I would've also considered including some notes on legal systems in countries other than the USA... but that's just gravy, so to speak. And besides, that can be discussed at a more appropriate time.)

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

1. How about a nod to Lucha HERO in the "Unified Theme Campaigns" section.

 

2. I'm looking at page 63 in the 5e book, in which we are treated to a whopping half page on Skills.

 

Since The Ultimate Skill has come out I think that more can be said about, if only for the Superhero genre applications.

[casualplayer]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

It is' date=' which is why I wrote on the subject at great length in [i']Stronghold.[/i] Not going to reprint any of that in Champions, though, beyond more or less what it's already got on the topic.

 

If what's in Stronghold isn't satisfying enough for ya, I'm afraid you're out of luck. AFAIK it's the most comprehensive treatment of the subject ever written, and I don't think there's much more to be said without descending into levels of detail that would bore most readers. ("Your honor, as you can see, the rule of ejusdem generis applies here....")

 

I think, though, based on your comments that what you want is a discussion of the interaction of superheroes and governmental authority, which is a different issue. While I don't necessarily agree with some of your charaterizations of the possiiblities, that might be worth a touch more discussion in the book than it already has. Bears thinking about, anyways.

 

Is that where my legalese fix is? I'm afraid I'm behind on my superverse purchases since my supers game went dormant and have been picking up Pulp HERO and Star HERO genre books instead. Stronghold is a book that should cross editions nicely; sounds like I've got an addition to my Christmas list.

[wcw43921]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I reiterate my suggestion for a character building and development tutorial--

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1280131#post1280131

 

How to most effectively build the character you want to play, and how to make him even more effective once you acquire some EPs--whether it's better to increase the APs in a power, or buy some new advantages for it, or buy off its limitations. Whether or not to increase the effectiveness in existing skiils, or buy new ones. Whether it's better to buy new Powers or buy off Disadvantages.

 

And perhaps most important--how to make it all work in story context. In other words, plotting out your character's story and goals, and how you're going to spend your EPs to achieve those goals. And what to do when events in-game throws a monkey wrench into your progress towards those goals.

 

Hope that helps.

[Deadborder]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Pulsar, Hower, Ogre, Green Dragon and Armordillo.

 

That is all.

[Tasha]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would love to see a section talking about Villainous Motivations. Why the bad guys (and gals) are bad. The kinds of crimes that villains do and why. Basically the RP fluff for writing up believable Villains.

[bubba smith]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

good point tasha

[BobGreenwade]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would love to see a section talking about Villainous Motivations. Why the bad guys (and gals) are bad. The kinds of crimes that villains do and why. Basically the RP fluff for writing up believable Villains.

Yeah' date=' good call. Maybe a page or two's worth, with a paragraph on each of the most common motivations, mental disorders, and other things that would be covered in greater detail in [i']Dark Champions[/i].

[The Main Man]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That could be a readily templated idea for all genre books, rewritten to fit each respective genre.

[ghost-angel]

Re: CHAMPIONS 6E -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

It's more or less become the template, the last few Genre Books from Steve have all included some really spiffy sections on Villains, Villain Archerypes, and Villain Qualities (Motivations fall in here). As well as NPC Archetypes. Post-Apoclaypse Hero has 5 Pages on Villains. I'm assuming Steve will give the same space considerations to Champions at least. It's good stuff.

 

Of course, 5E Champions gives out 7 Pages to Villains covering various levels of villains, Archetypes, Types with motivations, and then even more space to verious NPC Archetypes. The only thing missing is Personalities I think.