gojira Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 This missive is going in the Champions forum due to the Champions 6e thread stickied at the top. Steve said something the other day that bugged me a bit. He got critisized for PAH and UFH for the mini setting being too short. Huh? I think UFH is one of the better books put out by Hero Games in a while. The mini settings are great. They provide enough information to get started, with out being overbearing or boring to read. I think I may have mentioned something like "the only thing I could say against the mini settings is that they're are too short!" but that was intended as praise, not really a complaint at all. In general, and I want say this as constructive criticism, not griping, I find many Hero Games books over long. UFH was refreshing in being the reverse (I don't own PAH). There was enough description to get me interested in the material, with out being so large that the amount of verbiage got in the way of the flow of the book. I do feel that some Hero Games books do suffer this way and new readers in particular might be put off by the amount of text in some of the books. So, really, were the mini settings too short? They don't work for you? Or were they just cool enough where they left you wishing for more, but they were still *cool*? 'Cause I'm in the latter camp. I think that something like the mini settings that sparks imagination but leave the reader looking for more is exactly the sort of thing to inspire good role playing games. Being a little "hungry for more" is exactly where you want to leave a customer. My 2 cents. (And yeah, I realize that I'm just one data point and don't have Steve and Darren's experience with the industry, but hey, if folks can play Monday morning quarterback after the big game, then I can kibitz too. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theron Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I thought they were great. I'm surprised this is a minority opinion, but I seem somewhat out of step with a lot of mainstream Hero fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? The mini-settings look and feel like solid Campaign Pitches to me. Which is, IMO, a good thing. They're designed to help a GM and Players get started in a particular genre, give them a good foothold to go running off in. Especially with Hero which is a very DIY System. Providing the pitch, the framework, and some brief samples and ideas to fit in that and letting the group find their own level of enjoyment is very much in the Hero Spirit, IMO. Would I like to see some of these mini-settings turned into full on source books? Yeah, some of them would be cool. But really... I like what we get - enough to spark the imagination and get us rocketing down the path to our own vision of fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevenall Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I agree. I think the mini settings in UFH (= Urban Fantasy Hero) were just right. In fact, I was very impressed with the book overall. Further then that, I agree with you about book length. I almost never use anything from a published source *whole cloth*. The Bestiary being the occasional exception. The things I use are small scale bits: interesting characters and scenarios, interesting power constructions, sometimes new rules, and I especially love using existing game elements in clever new ways. I should disclaim this by saying I only ever GM Hero System. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Also - I own all the books, the mini-settings in Post-Apocalypse and Luche Libre are just as good as the Urban Fantasy ones. If fact, I think entire books based around mini-settings would actually be kind of cool. Maybe 15-30 pages each; a few of them could really stretch how the system is used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted October 23, 2009 Report Share Posted October 23, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I'm not saying that particular criticism was universal. Obviously there are some people who like mini-settings -- witness this thread. But there are some people, some of them quite vocal, who dislike mini-settings. Either they want more information (about some part, or all of it), or they feel "ripped off" because the mini-setting leaves so much work for the GM and players to do even though they paid money for something. That's one reason I've never really put much effort into developing the Chaos Blades setting/concept or the Golden Hunters mini-campaign thing -- I don't really have the time/interest to turn them into full-blown settings, and the "mini" version would leave so many folx dissatisfied. (And, in some cases, even the "mini" version might be more work than I'd want to tackle in my spare time. ) Still, you never know. If I ever get STORMlords finished to my satisfaction, maybe one of those ideas lurking in my head will insist on being put on paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I am another one that liked the mini settings. They gave me a place to start and also allowed me to see the beginnings of a campaign. That helped to solidify the ideas that I had for my own homebrew campaign. So I thought they were quite nifty and VERY useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Someone in the Champions Ge thread said that they don't like the mini-settings? I must have missed that one. Me? I love 'em and I agree that they make for great starting points that give a player room to breathe - the more open-ended, the better. I might even argue that Terran Empire, Turakian Age, etc could possibly work better as mini-settings with some creative revision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted October 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Someone in the Champions Ge thread said that they don't like the mini-settings? No, Steve said it. In the 6e thread, he said that he'd been told that folx didn't like them. Or some very vocal folks, as he mentions further up this thread. Sorry if I was unclear. I'm still waiting to see if anyone pops up and says they didn't like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I have the Urban Fantasy Hero, none of the other books, and need to pick up LLH and PAH, and I have to say I'm in agreement here, I love that they are there... personally I don't plan on using any of them (as written at least), but they are great fodder for campaign workshoping. I say Keep 'em comming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I like mini settings just fine. They serve well in genre books to illustrate broad ideas, even when they aren't directly usable for a given purpose (and often they are usable). They are particularly fitting for sub-genre books that don't rate their own full blown setting. Really can't see why people wouldn't like a few of them per sub-genre book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfergus Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I like mini settings a lot. Even if I don't use them they get my creative juices flowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted October 24, 2009 Report Share Posted October 24, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? My favorite mini-setting has to be After The Blast, because it's an obvious clone of After The Bomb except that it's better written and does the same (and more) in 40 pages than After The Bomb did in ~200 pages (albeit a lot of AtBo was rules versus AtBl having a 500+ core rulebook but I think that my point still stands.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teh bunneh Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I've always liked the mini settings ('swhy I suggested Steve put a couple in the Champs 6e book). I think they're great starter fodder for a full-blown campaign, and they're also good to help the GM come up with his own ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 26, 2009 Report Share Posted October 26, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I know it isn't technoically an mini-setting, but I love the Watchers of the Dragon book. I wish Steve would do something more along that line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I know it isn't technoically an mini-setting' date=' but I [i']love[/i] the Watchers of the Dragon book. I wish Steve would do something more along that line. A 6th Edition version of that book gets my vote too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hierax Posted October 27, 2009 Report Share Posted October 27, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Mini Settings are great, hope to see more of them in future products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Long Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I know it isn't technoically an mini-setting, but I love the Watchers of the Dragon book. I wish Steve would do something more along that line. Hang on until 2011 and I suspect you'll get your wish. We'll let you know more come February. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 28, 2009 Report Share Posted October 28, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Hang on until 2011 and I suspect you'll get your wish. We'll let you know more come February. Sounds like my birthday wish is coming true ! But, 2011 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
input.jack Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Im going to have to jump in on the side of pro-mini settings, too. (Groundbreaking within this thread, I know) However, its my understanding that a great many gamers these days do nothing -but- run "from the box" settings and adventures. Apparently entire campaigns rise, lumber forward, and come to their conclusion without the GM ever actually -creating- anything original. And I think thats sad. HERO gamers are a different lot than the "typical gamer", I suspect. Not in the least because we are accustomed to using a game system that not only allows but demands that we be able to see all the nuts and bolts of a write-up, and that encourages GMs to create their own material because they can. Many RPGs have NPC, character, vehicle, and other setting pieces generated by tables or charts, or by modular components that give a "general feel" for how something is supposed to work. But they dont let you see whats behind those tables. Lets say a Player creates a spell in D&D. How does the GM know what spell level it should be? Answer: You dont. The GM has to basically guess. In HERO you see the construction of the spell. You know exactly how powerful it is, because you know the Active Points. And you know how much of a drain on a Player's recources it is going to be to learn, because you know its Real Point cost. Because of that, if we decide we want to include something new, or something not previously generated, we can, knowing -exactly- how it will fit into the game. Because thats how the game is built. Most games discourage that kind of thing. More's the pity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba smith Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Im going to have to jump in on the side of pro-mini settings, too. (Groundbreaking within this thread, I know) However, its my understanding that a great many gamers these days do nothing -but- run "from the box" settings and adventures. Apparently entire campaigns rise, lumber forward, and come to their conclusion without the GM ever actually -creating- anything original. And I think thats sad. HERO gamers are a different lot than the "typical gamer", I suspect. Not in the least because we are accustomed to using a game system that not only allows but demands that we be able to see all the nuts and bolts of a write-up, and that encourages GMs to create their own material because they can. Many RPGs have NPC, character, vehicle, and other setting pieces generated by tables or charts, or by modular components that give a "general feel" for how something is supposed to work. But they dont let you see whats behind those tables. Lets say a Player creates a spell in D&D. How does the GM know what spell level it should be? Answer: You dont. The GM has to basically guess. In HERO you see the construction of the spell. You know exactly how powerful it is, because you know the Active Points. And you know how much of a drain on a Player's recources it is going to be to learn, because you know its Real Point cost. Because of that, if we decide we want to include something new, or something not previously generated, we can, knowing -exactly- how it will fit into the game. Because thats how the game is built. Most games discourage that kind of thing. More's the pity maybe thats why HERO doesn't publish game modules any more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? I put two mini-settings into the back of "Kazei 5" as well. Although mine are really, really short. Just a couple of paragraphs each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Also Susano your Asian Bestriary Books were great ! Any chance of a oriental fantasy mini-campaign ? A setting with alittle Chinese, Japanase, and Korean analogos ? Hey while I'm wishing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Re: Mini Settings "Too Short"? Also Susano your Asian Bestriary Books were great ! Any chance of a oriental fantasy mini-campaign ? A setting with alittle Chinese' date=' Japanase, and Korean analogos ? Hey while I'm wishing.[/quote'] Probably not... at least, not anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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