JohnOSpencer Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 We are playing a superheroic campaign and one of my PCs is a robot and was thinking about making his character the machine class of mind rather than human. This is the second time he's suggested something like this, last time it was the alien class of minds. Do you think it should cost points to be the machine(or alien)class of mind rather than human? My thoughts are leaning toward charging him 10-15 points for it. It makes him technically immune to 2/3 of the mentalists already made for the campaign. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinecone Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Sounds good...personally any "Robot" that thinks and feels just like a human is in the Human cat of minds...10 to 15 sounds fair....Immine to all poisons/toxins is 10....yeah sounds fair... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds If there is tangible benefit then charge points. Here's a point to consider: Mechanon is a human class mind in the CU. Take that as you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds We are playing a superheroic campaign and one of my PCs is a robot and was thinking about making his character the machine class of mind rather than human. This is the second time he's suggested something like this, last time it was the alien class of minds. This is something that is typically cautioned against in the books. It is advised that PC's should instead take a disadvantage that they belong to both classes of minds. Many (most?) or the sentient robots and alien races in the CU are built this way. If you chose to allow this, you need to make sure there are downsides as well, such as not being able to get in on the team mind link or what have you. The cost you are suggesting may also be off. While 10-15 points of Mental Defense would be an annoyance, it would not make him completely immune to all the campaigns mentalists. So changing him a similar cost for being of a different class of minds is probably not really fair. IMO, this can work if you are prepared for it. If you are not, you are effectively letting him get 100% mental DR for cheap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Villains get XP, too ... plus, while this makes him immune to 2/3rs of the extant mentalists, it makes him vulnerable to things that other characters would laugh off, like cyberpathic powers (obviously) or even a computer virus, depending on how it was bought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds My suggestion is - ditch the Class of Mind rules. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary is in a Class by itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Typist Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Villains get XP' date=' too ... plus, while this makes him immune to 2/3rs of the extant mentalists, it makes him vulnerable to things that other characters would laugh off, like cyberpathic powers (obviously) or even a computer virus, depending on how it was bought.[/quote'] LISTEN to this man. There are tangible downsides (and by extension point breaks) for taking Machine Class of Minds. Have fun with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gojira Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds My thoughts are leaning toward charging him 10-15 points for it. It makes him technically immune to 2/3 of the mentalists already made for the campaign. I'd charge more. 20-30 points. It should be equivalent to having a really awesome amount of Mental Defense. 30 points is probably what I would do. Do be careful here. This could make many powers which really hit him hard. Any Cyberkinesis is going to mess him up. If that doesn't occur too often, then it might be ok. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds We are playing a superheroic campaign and one of my PCs is a robot and was thinking about making his character the machine class of mind rather than human. This is the second time he's suggested something like this, last time it was the alien class of minds. Do you think it should cost points to be the machine(or alien)class of mind rather than human? My thoughts are leaning toward charging him 10-15 points for it. It makes him technically immune to 2/3 of the mentalists already made for the campaign. Thanks in advance. PCs playing robots that are "sentient" should be in the Human class of minds(or both Human and Machine). That's my take on it . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds My suggestion is - ditch the Class of Mind rules. That's the best solution to me. PCs playing robots that are "sentient" should be in the Human class of minds(or both Human and Machine). That's my take on it . Why? Well, because PC's shouldn't get immunity to many mentalists for free. Oh? Then why should NPC's get the same immunity for free? As you may have surmised, I am not a fan of the "classes of mind" rules. If the character's mind renders him less susceptible to mental attacks, he can buy mental defense, mental negation or damage reduction to mental attacks, just like any other character who is resistant to mental attacks. If he is subject to mental attacks other characters would not be, that is a Complication ("affected by mental powers that only affect machines/animals/whatever"). The value of that complication depends on how common such powers are in your game. It might be so infrequently relevant that there is no point value at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Classes Of Minds should be an Optional Toolkitting Rule for those games that feel a need to differentiate and where it will have impact; In fact I put forth it should have been APG material instead of a Core Rule. I can see it useful for certain Star Hero Games that want different kinds of Aliens and Psionics not affecting each other. Or where a game treats things like Sapient Platns, Machines, Animals, and Others as all Different. So yea.. ditch 'em is probably the best option - especially for a Superhero Game: a place they make the least sense IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds For my games, if you are a PC you have a human class mind, because if you don't then you simply can't relate to the other PCs on any meaningful level. Machine minds are for machines, not even AIs as far as I am concerned (because AIs are designed to mimic human minds really). And "alien" minds in my games means non-organic energy creatures or Cthuluian horrors or something equally bizarre. Now if a PC wants to have two classes of mind, fine, but they have to have some humanity in there. Really the only reason to have classes of mind that I can see is to prevent a psionic character from controlling robotic automatons but allowing a provision for a cyberkinetic character to do so, which is almost more a sfx thing than anything else. Really in most cases I would just handle it as extra mental defense defined as "alien mind". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Machine class mind works great... on adapting mental powers to work on your car. Some campaigns might make more use of it (Data is a machine class mind, even though he is pretty human... pretty explicit about how 'mental' abilities work on him on him in the Star Trek Universe). Animal class mind has similar utility, and Alien class mind seems so campaign specific that it might as well have been a side-bar about inventing additional classes. In any case, outside of extreme circumstances the main PC should never (IMO) have a different class of mind than the campaign normal. Duplicants, or Multiforms, or the like... well, I can see some wiggle room there but it would have to be monitered. By and large, I'd say take a 5-10pt physical complication to say 'affected as more than one class of mind'. If you want to appear to only be a robot, then take an always-on mental shapeshift or selective invisibility to hide your humanish mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds For my games' date=' if you are a PC you have a human class mind, because if you don't then you simply can't relate to the other PCs on any meaningful level. Machine minds are for machines, not even AIs as far as I am concerned (because AIs are designed to mimic human minds really). And "alien" minds in my games means non-organic energy creatures or Cthuluian horrors or something equally bizarre. Now if a PC wants to have two classes of mind, fine, but they have to have some humanity in there. [/quote'] This is more or less the way I've always handled other Classes of Minds, including for NPCs. Animals have limited intellects and don't comprehend many situations and how to perform many tasks; Aliens don't react the way humans would and can't be communicated with beyond the most basic level; Machines have inflexible behaviors due to programming and may not know how to cope with unexpected circumstances. If your player is willing to roleplay this and you're feeling generous , you could allow him a Physical Limitation/Complication to reflect this, "Machine Intelligence" (as several published characters have), with severity based on how "different" you and he are willing to make the PC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds It would probably be more consistent to put the limitation on the powers themselves. For instance, a typical telepath could buy Mind Control with the limitation "Only vs Humans" or "Only vs Sapient Organic Creatures". A cyberpath could have the limitation "Only vs Machines". In most settings, I would still have "Significantly Non-Human" be a Perk/Talent, probably 10 points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnOSpencer Posted November 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Some good points both ways. I had a chat with him about this at dinner, and he's kinda interested in being Machine class of mind, but it's not a big deal. As he said: It's just electrical impulses, mine don't have to be any different than a humans. The different classes of minds are interesting but I thin I agree with Ghost Angel, they should be APG material. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. MID-Nite Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds That's the best solution to me. Why? Well, because PC's shouldn't get immunity to many mentalists for free. Oh? Then why should NPC's get the same immunity for free? As you may have surmised, I am not a fan of the "classes of mind" rules. If the character's mind renders him less susceptible to mental attacks, he can buy mental defense, mental negation or damage reduction to mental attacks, just like any other character who is resistant to mental attacks. If he is subject to mental attacks other characters would not be, that is a Complication ("affected by mental powers that only affect machines/animals/whatever"). The value of that complication depends on how common such powers are in your game. It might be so infrequently relevant that there is no point value at all. Who said NPCs were getting it for free? Robotic NPCs that are "sentient"(like Mechanon or Data) I'd consider to be in the Human class of minds(or both) as well, so nobody is getting a free ride...thus I don't see any problem with my original statement. Your campaign may vary... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Bushido Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds I'm another one with the "don't really groove on the classes of minds" camp, but I have used it a time or two to model aliens and such (don't do much supers, I'm afraid). Generally, if a player wants it, I don't charge points for it. I have them take it as a disadvantage, and play it as such. Yes, there's the "but what about mentalists?!" thing, but really-- what _about_ mentalists? It works both ways. Any mental power that _benefits_ other characters won't benefit him. Further, he should be constantly befuddled trying to cope with interacting in a game world that was _clearly_ not made by people who think the way he does. The list goes on and on. My biggest requirement be that the player be able to consistently role-play "a different way of seeing / interpreting things." It's two cents worth, and your change is at the gate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Who said NPCs were getting it for free? Robotic NPCs that are "sentient"(like Mechanon or Data) I'd consider to be in the Human class of minds(or both) as well Data is explicitly immune to mental effects, which is why the machine class mind comes to mind. Definitely an exception to the standard rule though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Who said NPCs were getting it for free? Robotic NPCs that are "sentient"(like Mechanon or Data) I'd consider to be in the Human class of minds(or both) as well' date=' so nobody is getting a free ride...thus I don't see any problem with my original statement. Your campaign may vary...[/quote'] If no one has a non-human class of mind, I'd suggest you aren't actually using classes of mind. Unless there is a point cost for being of a different class of minds, than anyone who is of a different class of minds is getting this benefit for free. Data is explicitly immune to mental effects' date=' which is why the machine class mind comes to mind. Definitely an exception to the standard rule though.[/quote'] He can be immune to mental effects by having a high level of Mental Defense, Mental Damage Reduction and/or Mental Damage Negation. A high Mental DCV would also create functional invulnerability. None of these are precisely "immune to mental effects", but we also don't have mechanics for "immune to physical effects". Why should mental powers be the only exception? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naanomi Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Different class of mind is to mental powers what Desolid is to physical powers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Different class of mind is to mental powers what Desolid is to physical powers Except that Desolid has a point cost. Prior editions had an option for "mental Desolid." If we have to have Desolid at all, I think we should include that option. Lucius Alexander And an Invisible Desolidified palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Re: Machine class of minds Different class of mind is to mental powers what Desolid is to physical powers Except that Desolid has a point cost. As well, a desolid character pays a very high price to be able to affect solid targets. A "different class of minds" entity typically spends an extra 5 points on an adder for each mental power, or may not even be able to affect his own class of minds and pay no extra cost. Assuming, of course, he has mental powers at all. He doesn't pay anything extra to be able to use non-mental powers. Desolid characters are affected by mental powers and sense-affecting powers, but cannot use them to attack without an advantage. IOW, I don't find the comparison especially relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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