A Storeowner's First Impression

[secretID]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

But I'm not sure that is an answer I want to see implemented.

I wonder if it would be a problem to just have some overlapping books. From what we're hearing in this thread, it looks like most people come to Hero either for Hero or for Champions. I.e., people don't come looking for Fantasy Hero and stumble onto Hero. If most people are in one of those two classes - "I want a good universal toolkit" and "I want a good supers game" - then maybe the products should include the current line plus a different version of Champions, which included all core rules most relevant to supers. It would be more appropriate to give that flashier packaging.

As a comic book lover who was looking for superhero games George Pérez's covers sold me on Champions 4th Edition and Hero System. [period]

I keep hearing references to that. I assume that was the one that had stuck in my head when I went looking for a supers games years later, and thought "Champions."

[Jagged]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

You seem to be arguing from the assumption that the HERO System is angling for the same player base as D&D, and I don't think that's true at all.

 

We're not?

 

Before I was a Hero System player I was a D&Der. How many of us were not, at one point or another, D&Ders?

 

We need to convert these guys as soon as possible. Its for their own good

 

PS: The cover to 4th was/is glorious

[IKerensky]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

As a beginner in HERO system I cant agree more with the OP and add some elements :

 

1- I wouldn't have known about HERO system without Champions Online.

2- I like large rulesbook so for me it is a +1.

3- For a supposedly all included systema HERO is seriously lacking, after purchasing the basic and rules set, I buyed Champions and Dark Champions to have more example of NPC and power creation, Gears and Bestiary because I NEEDED more examples and more readily avaliable elements before I can gamemaster it.

 

I dont know DnD 4th editions, but in every and all other RPG I played I can be assumed to have a ready to play adventure in the books, HERO have none of it. Even GURPS 3rd Edition that I get from garbage bin have it.

 

Frankly, visually and from the content HERO 6th edition isn't aimed at new players at all... it is aimed at veteran from the 5th. And the Basic Rulesbook didn't do the trick either because there is so much lacking in it that it is nearly not usable as it is, without previous knowledge of the game system.

[redwulfe]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

The desire to have examples to have the books make more since is something that would be very helpful in 5th ed. I do like that 6th went further towards giving this to players. The 2nd volume of the two book set has a large section dedicated to learning to GM for hero including many examples and a Genre by Genre break down. I am not sure if you have seen it but I would love to see a new players perspective on if this, or your take to see if this is more to the new players advantage. Personally, though I have only skimmed it, I think this is the section that is geared to the new player learning to run the game and something that older editions of the rules lacked.

 

Red

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

You would be amazed.

 

I was working at a comic/game shop during the launch of 3E D&D. We had the Creature Collection (third party monster book out before the monster manual - great monsters, great B&W lined art). On at least two occasions people picked it, flipped through it, and said something like "Ehh - Black and White art" and put it back.

 

Completely shocked me, because I don't care about art in game books that way.

 

 

....and anyway, that is what colouring pencils are for

[IKerensky]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

....and anyway' date=' that is what colouring pencils are for [/quote']

 

Well, back in the days, I did pencil colored the D&D Dungeon Master Guide and Monster Manual 1

 

What can I say ? I was young and foolish then ... as all we were...

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Unfortunately, I don't think Hero is an 'oh that looks neat, I'll take that right home and learn how to play it' kind of system.

 

Hero is to gaming what bridge is to cards. It's incredibly complex and takes some serious effort to get in to.

 

I don't think a flashy shelf presence cover is necessarily that statement to make here. ESPECIALLY since CO has come out, I think it is a valid option to to be able to look down a packed shelf and be able to point and scream "HERO!" Which these books most definitely do. It may not have a pretty dragon or a megavillain on the cover, but you will have no problems finding it.

 

I think it's even possible that it's difference will attract more attention. It is, in my mind, similar to the Advert MisSpell . You advertise Krazy Kars Auto Dealers because the spelling draws people's eye. It make is noticable.

 

(my emphasis)

 

AAAARRRGGGHH!!!

 

No, no no, no no...it isn't: Hero character creation is incredibly complex (compared to most other systems) and difficult to get into, but Hero isn't. We've chosen not to make it as accessible as we could. I know that more access = more pages, but not many. We've chosen to put the character creation section first: people walk up to it and read the blurb:

 

The view from the top is spectacular...

 

Then they look at the slope and think...but that looks like a positively dangerous climb.

 

I know I keep banging on about this, but HERO IS A GREAT SYSTEM even without the character creation system: it is astonishing how many ideas I first saw in Hero crop up in other game systems - even DnD combat is now practically based on the Hero CV system (which, again, we maintain is 'just as easy to understand' using an 11 target value and a low roll - IT ISN'T!).

 

We really do not help ourselves: it is like we are an exclusive club, setting the entry bar so high to keep the riff-raff out. I frankly do not understand that approach at all.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Removed - double post

[Alibear]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I must admit to feeling distinctly - nothing - about the covers of 5 and 6 and that is a shame. RPGing is my passion but 5 & 6 don't scream passion, excitement or adventure to me, sadly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I must admit to feeling distinctly - nothing - about the covers of 5 and 6 and that is a shame. RPGing is my passion but 5 & 6 don't scream passion' date=' excitement or adventure to me, sadly.[/quote']

 

I clearly remember getting the Big Blue book with the Doctor Destroyer fighting the Champions cover, and feeling I really had something here. I agree about the covers of 5e and 6e: they may be strong on brand but they are not at all evocative. They are like reference tomes. They do not, in me, trigger a sense of possibility. 6e is probably a bit better than 5e: the colours are brighter and more 'Superheroic'.

 

Now I appreciate that not everyone who plays Hero is going to play Champions*, but let us be honest with ourselves: it is already the most popular genre for Hero and, with many new recruits being pointed this way - at least potentially - by Champions Online, its 'market share' is only going to grow.

 

Also - and I say this very much with the idea in mind that the most popular element of Hero is superheroic rpging - those looking for a superhero game will almost inevitably be people who have been bought up on comics, will be indoctrinated to that mind-set - and what do comics do? Almost inevitably they have an exciting or evocative image on the cover: THESE are the people who will be most likely to WANT to buy product. A cover that makes them want to buy this product is practically a pre-requisite.

 

 

 

*To be honest I don't really play Champions - I play superhero games with Hero.

[Warp9]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I clearly remember getting the Big Blue book with the Doctor Destroyer fighting the Champions cover' date=' and feeling I really had something here.[/quote']

 

Yeah, art (especially cover art) can be very important. That was one thing about the Rifts books, the system sucked, but the cover art really got my attention.

[Darren Watts]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

We take everybody's advice seriously, which doesn't mean we necessarily agree with it all. We're quite happy with the appearance of 6th Ed, and hope that any who aren't will perhaps be satisfied with the cover art scheduled to appear on Champions (and all non-"core rules" books), which is done by a fairly well-known comics artist and looks fab. dw

[JmOz]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

We take everybody's advice seriously' date=' which doesn't mean we necessarily agree with it all. We're quite happy with the appearance of 6th Ed, and hope that any who aren't will perhaps be satisfied with the cover art scheduled to appear on Champions (and all non-"core rules" books), which is done by a fairly well-known comics artist and looks fab. dw[/quote']

 

when can we see it?

[Alcamtar]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Just offering my opinion. Not sure what my point is but that never stopped anyone from posting on the 'net before...

 

I do agree that the 4e BBB was the best version of Hero in terms of presentation and utility. The cover jumped out at you, the rules were short and concise, and it had a bundled setting. Unfortunately I don't play Champions... but the examples were still useful and the value was excellent.

 

As for 6e I like the cover, but I'm a veteran player and I pretty much will only use it for Fantasy Hero. I do get tired of full color pictures on gamebooks, because they often don't reflect my play style. One reason (among many) that I didn't buy D&D 4e is because all the Tiefling art raises eyebrows. And it's annoying enough when my wife teased me about wishing I could be a "fantasy hero" without also pointing to superheroes in spandex or some ridiculously over-muscled half orc kicking down a door.

 

I prefer generic universal rules systems, and I like simple covers (D&D3e, Hero 5e & 6e, SW:Ex) that don't presuppose anything. I like not having to hide the books when conservative visitors are in the house. But as I said I'm already a customer and would have bought it regardless.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

We're not?

 

Before I was a Hero System player I was a D&Der. How many of us were not, at one point or another, D&Ders?

 

We need to convert these guys as soon as possible. Its for their own good

 

PS: The cover to 4th was/is glorious

 

I've probably at least helped convert more people from D&D to the HERO System than anyone else on the planet, or would at least be at the top part of the list.

 

However, they are generally outliers and edge cases, and very often people already looking for something more.

 

There is some overlap, but the core demographic of D&D is not the same core demographic as HERO.

 

In the same way that the core demographic of Ford or Chevy is not the same core demographic as Mercedes or BMW. Some BMW owners may have previously owned a Ford, and they might drive a Ford again some day...but Mercedes and BMW doesn't build cheap and disposable trucks and muscle cars in an attempt to penetrate that particular market, they focus on building quality well engineered automobiles; their marketing focuses on elegance, performance, power, and exclusivity rather than economy, accessibility, or nationalism. Some Ford drivers might one day decide they want something more than they are getting, but most wont, and for some the cost-value equation will never make sense for them. And that's ok; different people have different needs and no one platform can address them all.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Am I the only person here annoyed by the use of the word 'convert'? It's a game system, not a religion.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Am I the only person here annoyed by the use of the word 'convert'? It's a game system' date=' not a religion.[/quote']

 

In the sense of a "system conversion".

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Am I the only person here annoyed by the use of the word 'convert'? It's a game system' date=' not a religion.[/quote']

 

It's not?

 

Damn.

[casualplayer]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Am I the only person here annoyed by the use of the word 'convert'? It's a game system' date=' not a religion.[/quote']

 

Infidel.

[casualplayer]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I may be wrong.

 

I got my books today and, while it may have been colored by my radiant glee at cracking the package, my almost-6-year-old saw Hexman on the cover and immediately started striking superhero flex poses. Now he may be genetically predispositioned, like my youngest who loved Star Trek before he had ever seen Star Trek , and he may be influenced by the fact that Daddy sure does seem to be reading books with that logo on it an awful lot and What Daddy Likes still defines cool but the cover got a Mighty Morphin Power Ranger reaction.

 

Anyone seen the teen spirit response?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I may be wrong.

 

I got my books today and, while it may have been colored by my radiant glee at cracking the package, my almost-6-year-old saw Hexman on the cover and immediately started striking superhero flex poses. Now he may be genetically predispositioned, like my youngest who loved Star Trek before he had ever seen Star Trek , and he may be influenced by the fact that Daddy sure does seem to be reading books with that logo on it an awful lot and What Daddy Likes still defines cool but the cover got a Mighty Morphin Power Ranger reaction.

 

Anyone seen the teen spirit response?

Other than my own?

[phookz]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

(my emphasis)

 

AAAARRRGGGHH!!!

 

No, no no, no no...it isn't: Hero character creation is incredibly complex (compared to most other systems) and difficult to get into, but Hero isn't. We've chosen not to make it as accessible as we could. I know that more access = more pages, but not many. We've chosen to put the character creation section first: people walk up to it and read the blurb:

 

The view from the top is spectacular...

 

Then they look at the slope and think...but that looks like a positively dangerous climb.

 

I know I keep banging on about this, but HERO IS A GREAT SYSTEM even without the character creation system: it is astonishing how many ideas I first saw in Hero crop up in other game systems - even DnD combat is now practically based on the Hero CV system (which, again, we maintain is 'just as easy to understand' using an 11 target value and a low roll - IT ISN'T!).

 

We really do not help ourselves: it is like we are an exclusive club, setting the entry bar so high to keep the riff-raff out. I frankly do not understand that approach at all.

 

I agree with you. Since 4E there has been a drift into more complexity. The CV system is more complicated, though I've seen vehement arguments to the contrary. OCV + Die roll vs DCV + 10 would be simpler.

[Alibear]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

We take everybody's advice seriously' date=' which doesn't mean we necessarily agree with it all. We're quite happy with the appearance of 6th Ed, and hope that any who aren't will perhaps be satisfied with the cover art scheduled to appear on Champions (and all non-"core rules" books), which is done by a fairly well-known comics artist and looks fab. dw[/quote']

 

What I keep thinking of is the 4th ed paperback (non BBB champions bundle) with the guys from various genres running at the reader. Personally I think something like that would be better.

 

6-8 characters from different genres interacting in someway. Perhaps in an inn or genre neutral setting.

[Balabanto]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

As a beginner in HERO system I cant agree more with the OP and add some elements :

 

1- I wouldn't have known about HERO system without Champions Online.

2- I like large rulesbook so for me it is a +1.

3- For a supposedly all included systema HERO is seriously lacking, after purchasing the basic and rules set, I buyed Champions and Dark Champions to have more example of NPC and power creation, Gears and Bestiary because I NEEDED more examples and more readily avaliable elements before I can gamemaster it.

 

I dont know DnD 4th editions, but in every and all other RPG I played I can be assumed to have a ready to play adventure in the books, HERO have none of it. Even GURPS 3rd Edition that I get from garbage bin have it.

 

Frankly, visually and from the content HERO 6th edition isn't aimed at new players at all... it is aimed at veteran from the 5th. And the Basic Rulesbook didn't do the trick either because there is so much lacking in it that it is nearly not usable as it is, without previous knowledge of the game system.

 

Go to the Hero System Store or http://www.blackwyrm.com and purchase War of Worldcraft for 10 dollars. You'll see what an adventure looks like.

 

Of course, as the author, I may be a little biased, but it's a good use of your ten dollars.

[Fearghus]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

This isn't really a fair comparison' date=' as you're throwing the Monster Manual into the D&D pool but not the Bestiary in for HERO. So it's $70 for D&D PHB & DMG, as compared to $80 for 6E1 & 6E2 (before anyone cries foul, the $80 is an assumption that the books are purchased in a brick and mortar store since this thread was started from that viewpoint, and I'm assuming you don't get the bundle price in a B&M store, you can get them for only $70 online or $80 with the PDFs thrown in as well, which is a great deal:thumbup:).[/quote']

 

Well you sort of have a point. I can't imagine being able to play D&D with out the Monster Manual, but you can play hero with out even knowing the Beastiary exists. Also... if you are going to make that argument then you really only need one copy of 6E2 at the table so only the GM has to buy that book since 6E1 gives you all the info you need to create your character. That's all nit picking though...

 

No matter what your argument is my point is still that the cost isn't really an issue. $35 compared to $40... 2 books compared to 3 books... If you want to play your going to spend the money. People are going to buy what they like and money isn't going to make a significant difference unless the price points are vastly different. Since we're talking about a cost difference of $5 per book I doubt it will matter.