A Storeowner's First Impression

[Greywind]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Rifts sucks.

 

Just sayin'...

[prestidigitator]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

It's a picture of a gorilla and flying cats engaging in a gunfight with Nazis on top of a zeppelin. It's the art from the first page of the Campaign chapter in 6e.

 

Oh. Okay. I see. It's the 215th page of the PDF, but page number 213 (since there are extra PDF pages for the covers).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Something like this???

 

[NOTE: This is just a quick collage of existing art for demonstration purposes]

That screams nothing but Superhero and maybe scifi. Looks like the cover to a very interesting setting, not to a universal system. If the 5ER cover looked like that I wouldn't have picked it up unless someone pointed it out to me, since I was looking for a generic system and picture obviously isn't (generic).

 

EDIT: It's a nice collage by the way. I just think it hurts your point more than helps...

[GoldenAge]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

That screams nothing but Superhero and maybe scifi. Looks like the cover to a very interesting setting, not to a universal system. If the 5ER cover looked like that I wouldn't have picked it up unless someone pointed it out to me, since I was looking for a generic system and picture obviously isn't (generic).

 

EDIT: It's a nice collage by the way. I just think it hurts your point more than helps...

 

Really?

 

Seriously, you're going to critique a 3 minute example??? It had a trooper, a witch, a dragon, a raccoon (or is that a cat???) with a big gun, a floating horror double-head, space ships aaaaand a caped superhero with the Hex-Man [logo] on his chest.

 

If you thought this silly thing was "very interesting", just imagine a REAL piece of art on the cover.

 

EDIT: I don't really have a point.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I bought only one book based on the cover art. Rifts.

 

Never. Again. Art Lies.

 

 

OTOH, it works - if art can make you buy Rifts, it can make you buy anything AND if you'd bought HERO based on gorgeous cover art, you'd perhaps have a different view of things...

[dmjalund]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

hows this for an idea. a smaller hexman, and surrounding it are panels (skewed to perspective so they seem to be coming from the hexman) with images from each genre

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Yes all you need to play

but only 90% of everything there are a few things it does not have

I would love to see a 200 page Hero system book like in 4th ed but alas it is not to be so

 

I remember, once upon a time, when games were 64 pages. Even then I had a blast. You either made a judgement call, or filled in things if you thought they were missing. Bare-bones and ready to rumble.

 

Over time games got longer. Often the "more robust" systems provided many improvements, but sometimes they just bogged you down. Or made your head hurt.

 

I loved the 4th Ed. Rules. Short, sweet, to the point. There were some things that needed fixing, but overall it was rock solid. 200-300 pages is "the zone."

 

5th/6th Edition have brought many good things to the table. But they do come across more like a legal tome than a game.

 

I love what I can do with it, but its also started to push my granularity/"comprehensivity" envelope.

 

Oh for the days with a box that had 2 staple bound rules pamphlets, a set of dice, a map, and some counters inside!

 

Opening one of those was a true delight!

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Something like this???

 

[NOTE: This is just a quick collage of existing art for demonstration purposes]

 

Um... hello!

 

It certainly catches the eye!

 

That would be a good conceptual starting point.

 

You might want to invoke some of the genres more distinctly.

 

But for a quicky example its really good.

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Examples and explanations do eat up pages' date=' but my personal upper tolerance of page count is relative to how these pages are actually used. I'm beginning to think that it would be interesting to have a reference work as well, that left out all explanations and examples. That would be nifty - and do both of these things.[/quote']

 

It would surely make me happy.

[teh bunneh]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I remember, once upon a time, when games were 64 pages. Even then I had a blast. You either made a judgement call, or filled in things if you thought they were missing. Bare-bones and ready to rumble.

 

Over time games got longer. Often the "more robust" systems provided many improvements, but sometimes they just bogged you down. Or made your head hurt.

 

I loved the 4th Ed. Rules. Short, sweet, to the point. There were some things that needed fixing, but overall it was rock solid. 200-300 pages is "the zone."

 

5th/6th Edition have brought many good things to the table. But they do come across more like a legal tome than a game.

 

I love what I can do with it, but its also started to push my granularity/"comprehensivity" envelope.

 

Oh for the days with a box that had 2 staple bound rules pamphlets, a set of dice, a map, and some counters inside!

 

Opening one of those was a true delight!

 

It would surely make me happy.

 

Ahem. Hero System Basic Rules. 136 pages. Everything you need to play. Just sayin'.

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Ahem. Hero System Basic Rules. 136 pages. Everything you need to play. Just sayin'.

 

Does it cut out things the way Sidekick did?

 

If not, perfect.

 

Indeed, sidekick with a few things put back in would have been perfection itself.

[teh bunneh]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Does it cut out things the way Sidekick did?

 

If not, perfect.

 

Indeed, sidekick with a few things put back in would have been perfection itself.

 

Yes, some powers and some skills were cut. Pretty much anything that couldn't be explained in three paragraphs or less was removed. So skills like Autofire and Analyze, and powers like Automaton, Damage Reduction, Reflection, Summon, and a few more that I can't recall off the top of my pointy head. It's got considerably more goodness than the old 64-page book, but less than the 600-page book. I'd say nothing that would prevent someone from playing the game (or introducing the game to newbies), but that's just my experience.

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Yes' date=' some powers and some skills were cut. Pretty much anything that couldn't be explained in three paragraphs or less was removed. So skills like Autofire and Analyze, and powers like Automaton, Damage Reduction, Reflection, Summon, and a few more that I can't recall off the top of my pointy head. It's got considerably more goodness than the old 64-page book, but less than the 600-page book. I'd say nothing that would prevent someone from playing the game (or introducing the game to newbies), but that's just my experience.[/quote']

 

I'm content with a huge rulebook insofar as its .pdf and is indexed for efficient use of the search function.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I strongly suspect that these boards are the living embodiment of the phrase:

 

"You can't please any of the people, at all, ever."

 

No, hang on, that's not it...

 

[RexMundi]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Just give me a book I can use to backhand a buick off the highway and I'm happy.

 

~Rex

[Burrito Boy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

How do you evoke: generic system?

 

Put the words Generic Universal Roleplaying System on the cover?

 

What?

[Lucius]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Double post

[Lucius]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Never mind

[Vondy]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

Put the words Generic Universal Roleplaying System on the cover?

 

What?

 

Might be a bit of legal tangle...

[gojira]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I remember, once upon a time, when games were 64 pages. Even then I had a blast. You either made a judgement call, or filled in things if you thought they were missing. Bare-bones and ready to rumble.

 

Over time games got longer. Often the "more robust" systems provided many improvements, but sometimes they just bogged you down. Or made your head hurt.

 

I loved the 4th Ed. Rules. Short, sweet, to the point. There were some things that needed fixing, but overall it was rock solid. 200-300 pages is "the zone."

 

5th/6th Edition have brought many good things to the table. But they do come across more like a legal tome than a game.

 

I love what I can do with it, but its also started to push my granularity/"comprehensivity" envelope.

[

 

 

I must concur with these ideas. I do want to say that I'm trying to present this statement as constructive criticism, not a gripe. Hero System is good. I'd like it to be fantastic.

 

And yes, I'm aware that the Basic Rulebook is available and quite short. I just think the main rule books could be a bit shorter as well. Would save Hero Games some printin' and shipin' costs, if nothing else.

[BlackSword]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I must concur with these ideas. I do want to say that I'm trying to present this statement as constructive criticism, not a gripe. Hero System is good. I'd like it to be fantastic.

 

And yes, I'm aware that the Basic Rulebook is available and quite short. I just think the main rule books could be a bit shorter as well. Would save Hero Games some printin' and shipin' costs, if nothing else.

Pretty much mirrors my opinion. At some point excessive text no longer helps clarify the issue, but further muddies the water.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I concur I get what I need from just a small bit of the text. That being said , HERO is still the best thing out there for me and I'd like to keep all the options. Some thing like the basic book that was briefer but kept all the options just explained with less text would be my ideal.

[Fedifensor]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I remember, once upon a time, when games were 64 pages. Even then I had a blast. You either made a judgement call, or filled in things if you thought they were missing. Bare-bones and ready to rumble.

 

Over time games got longer. Often the "more robust" systems provided many improvements, but sometimes they just bogged you down. Or made your head hurt.

 

I loved the 4th Ed. Rules. Short, sweet, to the point. There were some things that needed fixing, but overall it was rock solid. 200-300 pages is "the zone."

 

5th/6th Edition have brought many good things to the table. But they do come across more like a legal tome than a game.

I have to agree with this. I've scared away more than a few players by the sight of 5ER, and just the character creation rules for 6E are almost as thick. Plus, you need both 6E1 and 6E2 to play, which is a thicker package than 5ER. Even after many years of experience, I need to look up both powers and combat options during the typical game session as a player. By contrast, I really only need the Player's Handbook to play D&D 4E. Actually, with DDI and the character creator, I can play an entire session with just the character sheet (which contains the rules for all the powers I'm using). There's a reason why 4E remains the dominant system on the market.

 

It's a good game, but it isn't user-friendly unless you do a LOT of work to make it so (like a certain Bunny's character sheets for convention games). It also doesn't help that certain vocal advocates for the system adopt an elitist attitude that drives people away. Sure, it may be annoying that some people are "completely illiterate morons", but badmouthing people for it doesn't draw new players to the system, and ensures that HERO will remain a niche product for gamers...which are already a niche market.

 

The BBB had its problems, but it truly had everything you needed to play Champions in one book. You get rules, sample heroes and villains, a complete adventure...it is not just a toolkit, but showcases those tools in action. After flipping through my 6E books, I have to wonder whether we've made that much progress. The rules may have less holes, but is it worth the extra complexity?

 

 

Ahem. Hero System Basic Rules. 136 pages. Everything you need to play. Just sayin'.

Anyone else remember the confusion between D&D and AD&D? Now we have Hero System 6E, Hero System Basic Rules, and (forthcoming) the Advanced Player's Guide. That's without including the genre books...which aren't available yet. Is the confusion factor worth offering a simplified version of the rules.

 

Sure, you and I could run HERO with just the basic rules...but we each have 25+ years of experience with the system. I doubt someone completely new to HERO could create everything they need for a campaign with just the basic rules, unless the new book is massively different from Sidekick. It's like setting someone down at a worktable with a bunch of parts and saying, "make an engine that works". Having the tools and having the knowledge to use those tools effectively are two different things.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

I have to agree with this. I've scared away more than a few players by the sight of 5ER, and just the character creation rules for 6E are almost as thick. Plus, you need both 6E1 and 6E2 to play, which is a thicker package than 5ER. Even after many years of experience, I need to look up both powers and combat options during the typical game session as a player. By contrast, I really only need the Player's Handbook to play D&D 4E. Actually, with DDI and the character creator, I can play an entire session with just the character sheet (which contains the rules for all the powers I'm using). There's a reason why 4E remains the dominant system on the market.

 

It's a good game, but it isn't user-friendly unless you do a LOT of work to make it so (like a certain Bunny's character sheets for convention games). It also doesn't help that certain vocal advocates for the system adopt an elitist attitude that drives people away. Sure, it may be annoying that some people are "completely illiterate morons", but badmouthing people for it doesn't draw new players to the system, and ensures that HERO will remain a niche product for gamers...which are already a niche market.

 

The BBB had its problems, but it truly had everything you needed to play Champions in one book. You get rules, sample heroes and villains, a complete adventure...it is not just a toolkit, but showcases those tools in action. After flipping through my 6E books, I have to wonder whether we've made that much progress. The rules may have less holes, but is it worth the extra complexity?

 

 

 

Anyone else remember the confusion between D&D and AD&D? Now we have Hero System 6E, Hero System Basic Rules, and (forthcoming) the Advanced Player's Guide. That's without including the genre books...which aren't available yet. Is the confusion factor worth offering a simplified version of the rules.

 

Sure, you and I could run HERO with just the basic rules...but we each have 25+ years of experience with the system. I doubt someone completely new to HERO could create everything they need for a campaign with just the basic rules, unless the new book is massively different from Sidekick. It's like setting someone down at a worktable with a bunch of parts and saying, "make an engine that works". Having the tools and having the knowledge to use those tools effectively are two different things.

You make of point of saying how you can play D&D with just the Player’s Handbook, then complain that a new player couldn’t run a game with the Hero Basic Rules. Seems like a double standard to me. Could a player new to D&D run a game with just the Player’s Handbook?

Oh, and "we" don't have 25+ years of experience with the system. You might. Many others do. But there's plenty of us on the boards with just a couple years (I'm just barely past 1).

[Fedifensor]

Re: A Storeowner's First Impression

 

You make of point of saying how you can play D&D with just the Player’s Handbook' date=' then complain that a new player couldn’t [i']run[/i] a game with the Hero Basic Rules. Seems like a double standard to me. Could a player new to D&D run a game with just the Player’s Handbook?

With a pregenerated 4E adventure - yes. Stat blocks are in the adventure, and the information on combat is in the PHB. I've run multiple 4E adventures without having the DMG or MM present. Now, if the person new to D&D was also new to roleplaying, then that would be a different story. Much of the stuff in the 4E DMG is tips on DMing, rather than 'crunch'.

 

Oh, and "we" don't have 25+ years of experience with the system. You might. Many others do. But there's plenty of us on the boards with just a couple years (I'm just barely past 1).

I was addressing 'teh bunneh', who I know has 25+ years with the system (he's stated this in a recent Non-Gaming Discussion thread).