Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

As to the wayback machine - indeed - but unfortunately my memory is failing rapidly with age - what was the name of the character with the dinky little buckler shield with a star on' date=' who fought alongside Starburst against Ogre in the Combat Example?[/quote']

 

Crusader, wasn't it? He showed up in some examples as well (circa 2e).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Crusader' date=' wasn't it? He showed up in some examples as well (circa 2e).[/quote']

 

Yes it was - well done - one less thing for my mind to worry over - I had 'Defender' stuck in the way, and I knew that was wrong. Thankyou!

[Tasha]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

OK how about a shield. One can either use it to boost your DCV or to wack someone with the large flat surface. Currently it is built with a MP.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

OK how about a shield. One can either use it to boost your DCV or to wack someone with the large flat surface. Currently it is built with a MP.

 

5d6 HtH Attack 25 points -1/2 HtH attack, -1/2 (Lockout DCV), -1/2 OIF : 10 points PLUS

+5 DCV -1/2 (Lockout HtH Attack ): 12 points

 

Total - 22 points

 

As a MP:

 

25 point pool (common limitation OIF - shield): 17 points

Slot 1: HtH attack (as above) 1 point

Slot 2: HtH atatck (as above) 1 point

 

Total 19 points

 

OK the MP is cheaper but it is only a few points difference - it is not as if it would prevent the concept being realised.

[IKerensky]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

MPs are useful though - say you have a weapon that uses various sorts of ammo. That is a clear instance where only one 'slot' can be used at a time - and so there should clearly be a cost break - but whether that cost break needs to be provided by a MP like structure is debateable - there may be equally viable' date=' if possibly more expensive, alternatives.[/quote']

 

Weapon with several ammunition avaliable :

Charges, Variable Advantage, Limitation: can only adjust the Variable Advantage when switching the ammo, and possibly variable SFx for different kind of ammo that basically have the same effect.

 

Good thing is that limit on the book-keeping, bad thing is that it add a kind of VPP effect of always having the right ammo on hand. Even with a charge expense it could be too powerfull and thus add another limitation that include the need to choose from 3-4 advantage before session (even then I dont think there is that many kind of ammo needed ).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

re: non-killing HTH weapon that can also be thrown (multipower with HA slot & EB slot)

 

No rulebook avaliable at work, but I guess I will simply add the Ranged advantage.

 

From the rules FAQ:

 

Can a character apply the Ranged Advantage to an HA, thus creating an attack usable at Range to which he can add his STR?

 

No. Once he adds the Hand-To-Hand Attack Limitation, he’s signifying that the attack can’t be used at Range. Logically, the two Modifiers simply don’t mix.

 

To build such an attack, buy Energy Blast, with dice equal to the amount of damage you think the thrown weapon should do, and define the special effect as “throwing a weapon and using high STR to make it do more damage than it ordinarily would.” If you want to use the weapon in HTH Combat as well, buy the weapon as a Multipower — one slot with an HA, one slot with an EB, 1 Recoverable Charge, Lockout (can’t use other slot until Charge is recovered)

.

[Kristopher]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

The thing to remember about a Multipower is that it's not a bunch of powers you get for cheap, it's a single power you're paying extra on in order to gain versatility.

[JmOz]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

The thing to remember about a Multipower is that it's not a bunch of powers you get for cheap' date=' it's a [b']single[/b] power you're paying extra on in order to gain versatility.

 

Can you tell me where that is in the book. While I definatly think that that is a valid POV, I would point out that some traditional uses for MP could be looked at as a group of powers, for instance a Utility belt is in essence a bunch of different powers that while thematicaly similar are still seperate powers.

[Greywind]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Can you tell me where that is in the book. While I definatly think that that is a valid POV' date=' I would point out that some traditional uses for MP could be looked at as a group of powers, for instance a Utility belt is in essence a bunch of different powers that while thematicaly similar are still seperate powers.[/quote']Even with that definition, it falls within Kristopher's explanation IMO.

[Rapier]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Even with that definition' date=' it falls within Kristopher's explanation IMO.[/quote']

 

Yes, I believe that makes a very good description for what an MP actually is. An MP is a macro-power. It is a power that contains a number of different effects.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

The thing to remember about a Multipower is that it's not a bunch of powers you get for cheap' date=' it's a [b']single[/b] power you're paying extra on in order to gain versatility.

 

I have to strongly disagree.

 

It's certainly a valid way to construct a Multipower (or a VPP for that matter) but the rules for Adjustment powers make it quite clear that different slots in a Multipower are different Powers unless the Unified Power Limitation is also taken on the slots & reserve.

 

In the most basic sense, Multipowers just represent a variety of different actions or abilities that a character can choose from to use, period. A common theme or sfx is not actually required.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

The thing to remember about a Multipower is that it's not a bunch of powers you get for cheap' date=' it's a [b']single[/b] power you're paying extra on in order to gain versatility.

 

 

I think that is what a MP SHOULD be but it is not what it is at present: you can use it to build a utility belt with lots of different gadgets.

 

Of course I'd argue that building a utility belt with a MP is failing to properly realise your concept: a MP describes, mechanically, a pool of points you can allocate to different powers but that (unless you have a ludicrously large pool) you can not use simultaneously at full effect.

 

That is not a good model to build a utility belt on so you shouldn't be using a MP, or a VPP for that matter, unless your concept also includes some actual reason why that mechanical restriction should be in place - and I don't think you can give such a reason (or at least no reason that does not require a great deal of convolutuion) for such a construct that does not work from either a single device or from a single power source.

 

So, no I do not think that is what the system treats a MP as but I think it should.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

If you use Active Point limits, you could give a lower limit for powers in a Multipower, or add the cost of the slot to the Active Points of the power.

 

For example, Single Blast Man uses a 12d6 Blast, for 60 effective AP. Multi-Blast Man uses a 55-point mulitpower, with ultra slots costing 5 points each. Adding the cost of the slot to the AP total, he also has 60 effective AP for his powers using this system. Single Blast Man does 1 DC more damage with his Blast, but Multi-Blast Man may have a Blast, an Armor-Piercing Blast, an Entangle, etc. His powers are slighly weaker, but he has more flexibility.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

If you use Active Point limits, you could give a lower limit for powers in a Multipower, or add the cost of the slot to the Active Points of the power.

 

For example, Single Blast Man uses a 12d6 Blast, for 60 effective AP. Multi-Blast Man uses a 55-point mulitpower, with ultra slots costing 5 points each. Adding the cost of the slot to the AP total, he also has 60 effective AP for his powers using this system. Single Blast Man does 1 DC more damage with his Blast, but Multi-Blast Man may have a Blast, an Armor-Piercing Blast, an Entangle, etc. His powers are slighly weaker, but he has more flexibility.

 

 

Multiblast man would need at least two slots, which would reduce his MP pool to 50 points, or 2d6 less than single blast man: assuming average defences around 24, that makes the difference between 18 points through defences for the 12d6 and 11 for the 10d6 - it is likely to take one or two MORE hits with the weaker blast to put an opponent down - so that makes using the total active cost of a MP unattractive. A few DC is a lot in Hero because what matters is damage over a certain threshold.

 

I would not want to cripple MPs as they are a useful construct for some concepts - i just happen to think that more concepts get levered into them than is really warranted.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Multiblast man would need at least two slots' date=' which would reduce his MP pool to 50 points, or 2d6 less than single blast man: assuming average defences around 24, that makes the difference between 18 points through defences for the 12d6 and 11 for the 10d6 - it is likely to take one or two MORE hits with the weaker blast to put an opponent down - so that makes using the total active cost of a MP unattractive. A few DC is a lot in Hero because what matters is damage over a certain threshold.[/quote']

I was only adding the cost of the slot the power is in, not every slot of the multipower. No matter how many slots Multi-blast Man has, the highest slot cost is 5 for a 55 point multipower. Thus, the highest AP cost would be 55, so 55+5=60.

 

The system could use a bit of revision - multi slots shouldn't drop the cost more than ultra slots. There is a simpler approach - just have characters using mulitpowers suffer a -1 DC or -5 active points versus characters who pay for their powers outside a framework.

 

Still, it makes sense to lose a bit of power versus Single Blast Man. Multi-Blast Man could switch between Blast, NND Blast, Entangle, Flash, etc. All Single Blast Man can do is a straightforward 12d6 Blast.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I was only adding the cost of the slot the power is in, not every slot of the multipower. No matter how many slots Multi-blast Man has, the highest slot cost is 5 for a 55 point multipower. Thus, the highest AP cost would be 55, so 55+5=60.

 

The system could use a bit of revision - multi slots shouldn't drop the cost more than ultra slots. There is a simpler approach - just have characters using mulitpowers suffer a -1 DC or -5 active points versus characters who pay for their powers outside a framework.

 

Still, it makes sense to lose a bit of power versus Single Blast Man. Multi-Blast Man could switch between Blast, NND Blast, Entangle, Flash, etc. All Single Blast Man can do is a straightforward 12d6 Blast.

 

 

I see what you did there - I had the wrong end of the stick.

[Rapier]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I have to strongly disagree.

 

It's certainly a valid way to construct a Multipower (or a VPP for that matter) but the rules for Adjustment powers make it quite clear that different slots in a Multipower are different Powers unless the Unified Power Limitation is also taken on the slots & reserve.

 

In the most basic sense, Multipowers just represent a variety of different actions or abilities that a character can choose from to use, period. A common theme or sfx is not actually required.

 

I think the confusion is nomenclature. In this instance, I believe we are making the statement that a MultiPower is a power that consists of many Powers. Powers (capital P) would refer to a Hero System power (eg Blast, RKA, Invisibility), whereas power (lowercase p) refers to a single special effect (eg blaster rifle, utility belt) that may have many different uses (eg Powers).

 

In this case, it might be clearer to say that a MP is a single Ability that contains many Powers.

[Balabanto]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I believe that a Multipower represents a set of specific abilities, systems, types of energy, or what have you that are linked by a common control mechanism. They are not necessarily linked by special effect, but they all operate on the same general principle.

 

Examples:

 

Batman's Utility Belt: What he pulls out of the belt may be different, but he usually has the right stuff beforehand. People who VPP Batman's Utility Belt are cutting corners and making him too plotty and not characterish.

 

A Powered Armor Character's Weapons Systems: This character has a selector mechanism by which he fires weapons or operates abilities based on a menu of some sort.

 

A Character who controls one specific type of energy, but who has a large number of different things he can do with it: He's only got so much energy he can use, and focussing effects requires all of the energy at once. This would lead to a variety of different blast effects, etc.

 

All of these are examples of multipowers. Your mileage may vary. I don't think superhero games can be played without Multipowers, for the most part. They've been a staple of the genre and remained virtually unchanged since first edition for a reason. There's a lot of things I've gone out of my way to say are broken in 6th edition. Multipowers are not on this list.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

..............Examples:

 

Batman's Utility Belt: What he pulls out of the belt may be different, but he usually has the right stuff beforehand. People who VPP Batman's Utility Belt are cutting corners and making him too plotty and not characterish.

 

...............

 

 

You know in the film where he hands one of his shiriken to a kid?

 

That ties up part of his MP, so now, if he uses his linethrower, it only goes 40 metres rather than 50.

 

That's why I'm prettty sure the MP is not the way to realise the 'utility belt' concept as demonstrated by Batman.

[Greywind]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

You know in the film where he hands one of his shiriken to a kid?

If you are talking about Batman Begins, I recall him tossing his pocket periscope to the kid. I don't think Bats would be negligent and give a kid a sharp object to play with.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

If you are talking about Batman Begins' date=' I recall him tossing his pocket periscope to the kid. I don't think Bats would be negligent and give a kid a sharp object to play with.[/quote']

 

You're right: Batman would never deliberately expose a minor to danger.

 

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

...

People who VPP Batman's Utility Belt are cutting corners and making him too plotty and not characterish.

 

...

 

I strongly disagree.

See this thread for various reasons.

Spending more points is not cutting corners.

[Greywind]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

You're right: Batman would never deliberately expose a minor to danger.

 

...yeah, that's my point...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

...yeah' date=' that's my point... [/quote']

 

He's such a big hearted guy

[dmjalund]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

You're right: Batman would never deliberately expose a minor to danger.

 

 

Unless his name is Robin