Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

You know in the film where he hands one of his shiriken to a kid?

 

That ties up part of his MP, so now, if he uses his linethrower, it only goes 40 metres rather than 50.

 

That's why I'm prettty sure the MP is not the way to realise the 'utility belt' concept as demonstrated by Batman.

 

If his 'shuriken' slots are built with charges (or better yet, recoverable charges) he's not losing access to the Multipower reserve (or Pool of a VPP) at all.

He's just losing a charge.

 

If this occurs in a near-heroic level (ex: Dark Champions) game then it's very likely that a weapon familiarity is required to use the otherwise mundane 'shuriken' other characters. The same logic could easily be extended to non-weapon slots in the Utility-Belt framework. Sure he can loan an item to another character but they are likely going to be completely unfamiliar with using them (-3).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

If his 'shuriken' slots are built with charges (or better yet, recoverable charges) he's not losing access to the Multipower reserve (or Pool of a VPP) at all.

He's just losing a charge.

 

If this occurs in a near-heroic level (ex: Dark Champions) game then it's very likely that a weapon familiarity is required to use the otherwise mundane 'shuriken' other characters. The same logic could easily be extended to non-weapon slots in the Utility-Belt framework. Sure he can loan an item to another character but they are likely going to be completely unfamiliar with using them (-3).

 

Fair enough, but if the shuriken are built with recoverable charges and Batman is on his swing rope when, across the city, the kid decides to throw the shuriken at the wall, the slots shift to shuriken and the Batman falls to his death.

 

I don't recall that scene in the film.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Fair enough, but if the shuriken are built with recoverable charges and Batman is on his swing rope when, across the city, the kid decides to throw the shuriken at the wall, the slots shift to shuriken and the Batman falls to his death.

 

I don't recall that scene in the film.

 

Do you allow for minor sfx free-bees for fire based characters?

If so, why not for the gadget character as well?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Do you allow for minor sfx free-bees for fire based characters?

If so, why not for the gadget character as well?

 

If the sfx is 'I get a whole lot more utility from this than I spent the points for', no, not really. If you can give away an item from your utility belt to someone else for them to use while you are using something else from the utility belt, that is more than a minor sfx freebie. That is really my point - an MP doesn't let you do what you actually could do if you had a utility belt, so it doesn't seem a good way to model it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Please keep in mind that I did not say Multipower but rather Framework. I personally believe that a Limited VPP is a better way to represent a Utility Belt. It is far more expensive regardless (~ 45 real for a 30 active pool)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Please keep in mind that I did not say Multipower but rather Framework. I personally believe that a Limited VPP is a better way to represent a Utility Belt. It is far more expensive regardless (~ 45 real for a 30 active pool)

 

A VPP works better because you can have more than one power running - at least potentially - at a time, and the ability to swap out equipment is certainly more Utility Beltesque, but you still have the same issue - a VPP is really just a MP with a bigger pool on a mechanical basis, so the same issues apply: unless the pool is big enough to run all the gadgets simultaneously - which almost defeats the object of using a framework - you run into the same problem: the constuct can not do what the concept says it should.

[Fedifensor]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Fair enough, but if the shuriken are built with recoverable charges and Batman is on his swing rope when, across the city, the kid decides to throw the shuriken at the wall, the slots shift to shuriken and the Batman falls to his death.

 

I don't recall that scene in the film.

Maybe the kid paid points for the shuriken. What else is he going to spend points on?

[Lucius]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

A VPP works better because you can have more than one power running - at least potentially - at a time' date=' and the ability to swap out equipment is certainly more Utility Beltesque, but you still have the same issue - a VPP is really just a MP with a bigger pool on a mechanical basis, so the same issues apply: unless the pool is big enough to run all the gadgets simultaneously - which almost defeats the object of using a framework - you run into the same problem: the constuct can not do what the concept says it should.[/quote']

 

Holy heroic conundrum, Batman!

 

So riddle me this: If it's not a Variable Power Pool, and it's not a Multipower, what in the name of Long is it!??

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I bet it's not a palindromedary

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Holy heroic conundrum, Batman!

 

So riddle me this: If it's not a Variable Power Pool, and it's not a Multipower, what in the name of Long is it!??

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I bet it's not a palindromedary

 

A bunch of gadgets?

 

Seriously if you actually build half a dozen 30 AP (or less) devices with all the limitations you can think of, it is not likely to cost that much.

[Lucius]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

A bunch of gadgets?

 

Seriously if you actually build half a dozen 30 AP (or less) devices with all the limitations you can think of, it is not likely to cost that much.

 

Then it becomes a question of just what you're trying to simulate.

 

Just in the last couple of days, while poking around on the superdickery site, I came across a frame from a comic where Batman is vanishing down a corridor or something, and lying on the floor behind him, hissing out its little cloud of some kind of gas, was a cannister labeled

BAT FEMALE VILLAIN REPELLANT

 

Putting aside the total over the top absurdity of such a thing, my point is, if you buy a half dozen gadgets, you have a half dozen gadgets; if what you want is "Whatever I happen to need, I happen to have in my utility belt" then well...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders how many points it would take to create every gadget Batman ever pulled from his belt....

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Then it becomes a question of just what you're trying to simulate.

 

Just in the last couple of days, while poking around on the superdickery site, I came across a frame from a comic where Batman is vanishing down a corridor or something, and lying on the floor behind him, hissing out its little cloud of some kind of gas, was a cannister labeled

BAT FEMALE VILLAIN REPELLANT

 

Putting aside the total over the top absurdity of such a thing, my point is, if you buy a half dozen gadgets, you have a half dozen gadgets; if what you want is "Whatever I happen to need, I happen to have in my utility belt" then well...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders how many points it would take to create every gadget Batman ever pulled from his belt....

 

Buy the gadgets as VPPs then. Start off with a VPP, in a focus, buy twice as many for 5 points. They ARE identical powers so it is legal, even if you set each VPP differently.

 

Personally I think that the BatBelt has become a bit of an in-joke and Bats doesn't actually use or have that many gadgets. He only ever 'solves a problem' with a gadget when he is fighting superman and pulls out a kryptonite rock. He has those Batarang/shuriken things. He has his cape which he can glide with, his armoured suit with an O2 supply, radio, IR goggles, swing rope. He often uses all of them simultaneously.

[Balabanto]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

No, it isn't. 15 points for the reserve, and god only knows how many slots in the belt. If you look at Steve's utility belt from UPB, there's like 60 slots in the darned thing. VPP is actually too efficient for it's point cost as far as that's concerned.

[dmjalund]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I think a "bat belt" would be more fittingly described as a VPP which is big enough to have a lot of items at one, whose actuall items can only be changed in the batcave

[megaplayboy]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I think you could probably run a whole campaign just giving all players a VPP: Character Concept Abilities, with the control/AP cap set at the AP cap, and the rest of the character points in the pool, with the Cosmic modifier on the control cost and the limitations, Only abilities that fit the character concept(-?(anywhere between -1/4 and -1 come to mind--mages might be -1/4, detectives and warrior knights might be -1), and "new" abilities require a skill roll(-1/4?)). Of course, you couldn't really have brand new players in such a game, and it might drive some game mechanics nuts.

 

But other than that...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I think you could probably run a whole campaign just giving all players a VPP: Character Concept Abilities, with the control/AP cap set at the AP cap, and the rest of the character points in the pool, with the Cosmic modifier on the control cost and the limitations, Only abilities that fit the character concept(-?(anywhere between -1/4 and -1 come to mind--mages might be -1/4, detectives and warrior knights might be -1), and "new" abilities require a skill roll(-1/4?)). Of course, you couldn't really have brand new players in such a game, and it might drive some game mechanics nuts.

 

But other than that...

 

True, true....

[Balabanto]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I think you could probably run a whole campaign just giving all players a VPP: Character Concept Abilities, with the control/AP cap set at the AP cap, and the rest of the character points in the pool, with the Cosmic modifier on the control cost and the limitations, Only abilities that fit the character concept(-?(anywhere between -1/4 and -1 come to mind--mages might be -1/4, detectives and warrior knights might be -1), and "new" abilities require a skill roll(-1/4?)). Of course, you couldn't really have brand new players in such a game, and it might drive some game mechanics nuts.

 

But other than that...

 

This is PRECISELY why the Utility Belt as Multipower Model is more justifiable. Having everyone be VPP Man is just powergaming.

[torchwolf]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

After arguing the usefulness of MPs back and forth on other threads and in the Hero Chat for awhile, I think that MPs are useful for representing an "ability" with different possible applications with a package of Powers.

 

The advantage of a VPP is that it is possible to have a concept where the possible applications are so many, or can be usable simultaneously, that the MP framework doesn't really work logically.

Granted, I've always hated having the note: "can use a lot of gadgets/spells" and a VPP writeup without any examples listed, especially with early published characters. The current (6E) VPP structure is the first that really works well for the "accomplished sorcerer" concept. If I have a player hand me a character sheets without any examples for a VPP that is listed, I just tell them to go write me up a few examples, so I can evaluate the VPP in use.

If the player is required to write up example Powers for the VPP I don't see a powergaming problem with a VPP more than with any other build - if it is used by a player familiar enough with the rules for this to work.

The utility belt I see as an excellent example of a VPP that I would ask: "fine, what do you intend to keep in your belt?" before considering allowing it. If the player then writes up more examples than would fit into the VPP at any one time, I would consider allowing the player to keep some points open for "just the gadget I need, lucky I brought that" because that is such a genre staple of those characters. Depending on how fast the player could come up with a new gadget, I might either allow him/her to design one on the spot, or pick one from the pre-made list.

 

That's my take on this, YMMV.

[Rapier]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

My first Champions game had such a character. He was just one HUGE VPP. The problem was that by the time he had figured out his build for the night (remember, this was back in the day when we had to use pencil, paper and calculators to create a character) we were about half done.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I never run a VPP character without a list of possible powers to speed the process. VPP's need to abide by the rule that players have a limited time to decide their action, or the character Delays until the player works it out.

 

A new character has a VPP only because a Cosmic VPP, only for SFX powers was less expensive than the Multipower would be. He has the -0 limitation "no new powers on the fly". He has to use the pre-written abilities, as if they were all Flexible multi slots.

[Greywind]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

My first Champions game had such a character. He was just one HUGE VPP. The problem was that by the time he had figured out his build for the night (remember' date=' this was back in the day when we had to use pencil, paper and calculators to create a character) we were about half done.[/quote']...which is why you do it before the game starts. Like the week before...

[Rapier]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Oh I totally agree with you. It was always a pain to have to wait for him or have him skip turns until he was ready.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Oh I totally agree with you. It was always a pain to have to wait for him or have him skip turns until he was ready.

 

He should redesign the character with 'takes a full turn to change VPP' then you wouldn't technichally be waiting for him - it is just how the power works

[IKerensky]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

Well Batman's Belt...

 

And every other Utility Belt...

 

Could we conceive that they are NOT powers, just like every other mundane objects and weapons that use Powers to describe their effects but are not powers.

 

Remove the Gadgeteer VPP, Batman just have access to a lot of ressource points to build gadgets and he have a power that able him to teleport the needed gadget to his belt. Even if that is not what happen physically that is definitely the cinematic result : the gadget needed just manage to be in his belt and not in his bat-vault.

 

After all if we design powers by effect that is the true effect of his power : bring to him the gadget he need when he need it.

 

On a related note, we commonly say that the B-man happen to always have just the right tool for the right task.. is it really true ? or isn't it that he happen to be creative enough to bring with him enough tools so he can slightly adjust one to the situation ? Perhaps there IS another tool that is PERFECTLY suited to the situation but that he happen not to have bring with him so he had to rely on slightly inferior product. As far as I know when fighting Scarecrow he usually bring with him antidotes or such, when he meet him by accident he had to rely on breathing apparatus at best.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

6e2 78 "A character can make a Multiple Attack with two or more slots in a single Power Framework, provided he has enough reserve/Pool Points to allocate to the two or more Slots used in the attack Simultaneously"

 

I would actually be quite surprised if this is a change from 5e. Seeing as multi slots in a Multipower were designed to allow 2 or more powers to be used at the same time as long as you had enough pool points to accommodate both powers. Perhaps someone who has their 5er close at hand can find the rule that says differently.

 

 

This is definitely a change from 5E.

 

However, a character may not combine two or more slots from a single Power Framework as part of a multiple-power attack, even if he has sufficient reserve or base points to use both slots at once.

 

The way to get around that is to have a "compound power" slot, typically where the powers are linked. However, that being said, I believe that most GMs house ruled it the way 6E evidently does it for MPs and VPPs (but typically not for ECs).

[Kristopher]

Re: Multipower are so common, why not just cut every cost by 2 ?

 

I have to strongly disagree.

 

It's certainly a valid way to construct a Multipower (or a VPP for that matter) but the rules for Adjustment powers make it quite clear that different slots in a Multipower are different Powers unless the Unified Power Limitation is also taken on the slots & reserve.

 

In the most basic sense, Multipowers just represent a variety of different actions or abilities that a character can choose from to use, period. A common theme or sfx is not actually required.

 

I don't consider "argument from adjustment power" to have much validity.

 

The mechanics of the MP make it a single Power, not what adjustment powers may or may not do to it.