Placed shots effective?

[RockSunner]

I am in a game using special hit locations for the STUN and BODY multiples of killing attacks. I wanted to check the effectiveness of the called shot groups, and found the following:

 

Here are the expected values for a KA, before applying any "to hit" penalties (as if one had bought +4 skill levels to offset placed shot penalties.

 

Uncalled shot : STUNx = 2.866, BODYx = 0.991

Head shot: : STUNx = 3.000, BODYx = 1.083, -4 OCV

High shot : STUNx = 2.889, BODYx = 0.986, -2 OCV

Body shot : STUNx = 2.889, BODYx = 0.986, -1 OCV

Low shot : STUNx = 2.500, BODYx = 0.931, -2 OCV

Leg shot : STUNx = 2.000, BODYx = 0.833, -4 OCV

 

Only the Head shot gives any significant benefit. High shots and body shots give exactly the same expected values (with a BODYx slightly lower than an uncalled shot), and high shots cost an extra -1 OCV for no extra benefit. Low shots and leg shots are for suckers.

 

It looks to me like all placed shots but head shots should be avoided, and then used only if you have the +4 skill to offset the placed shot penalties, or if the target is surprised out of combat and the penalties are cut in half (there are certain other cases, too) and you have +2 skill to offset placed shot penalties.

 

Almost no matter where you are on the to-hit table, taking a penalty reduces the expected value of a called Head shot to below a simple uncalled shot. So just don't do it if there's any penalty at all.

 

(The above is from a strictly mathematical point of view and disregards disabling, psychological effect on the enemy and companions, shooting to hit partially concealed targets or bypass armor, etc.).

[dmjalund]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

One benefit is the more predictable outcome.

[Rapier]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

(The above is from a strictly mathematical point of view and disregards disabling' date=' psychological effect on the enemy and companions, shooting to hit [b']partially concealed targets[/b] or bypass armor, etc.).

 

Emphasis, mine. You cannot compare the Called Shots chart with anything and begin by discounting the main purposes in using Called Shots.

 

Called shots are, by their very nature, intended to exploit a vulnerability in another character. The character has no leg armour, so you are targetting his legs. According to the chart, that may be a "suckers shot" but it bypasses his armour entirely and is, thus, EXTREMELY effective. It also has the benefit of possibly decreasing his movement and DEX making him easier to hit and less likely to escape.

 

This is why Called Shots are not recommended for SuperHeroic games, where DEF is considered to be covering the entire body. Partial armour, like you would fine in a common heroic level game, is ripe for Called Shots.

 

It should also be mentioned that allowing someone to buy enough levels to offset the penalties for Called Shots can be crazy effective.

 

Edit: Oh, and to answer your Post Title, yes Placed Shots are very effective when used as they are intended.

[RockSunner]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Head shots are predictable but strange. With 1d6+3 we have

1/3 Head

1/6 Hands

1/3 Arms

1/6 Shoulders

 

Why are hands so likely to be hit with this shot? And no chance for the rest of the body, like the chest?

[Rapier]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

About the only thing I can think of is that maybe trying to block or perhaps it's normal to have your arms and hands near your face when someone is aiming a gun at your head?

[Daltwisney]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Head shots are predictable but strange. With 1d6+3 we have

1/3 Head

1/6 Hands

1/3 Arms

1/6 Shoulders

 

Why are hands so likely to be hit with this shot? And no chance for the rest of the body, like the chest?

 

For one thing, the hit charts more accurately reflect HTH Combat than Ranged. Assuming the target is aware, he is likely to attempt to keep you from hitting him in the head, thus the hits to arms, hands and shoulders. Why no chest? Because they had to stop somewhere, and with 1d6+3, you can't roll a 10.

[pinecone]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Yeah, the only thing I could add is placed shots are real nice when you want to avoid a fatality....like you need answers, or Mind controll, stuf like that.

 

I used to use a crazy effective build of +8 w/attack (HtH, or Ranged say) Only vs Hit locations -1....Spooky, and only around 20 points....

[RockSunner]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

I used to use a crazy effective build of +8 w/attack (HtH, or Ranged say) Only vs Hit locations -1....Spooky, and only around 20 points....

 

That's officially a Penalty Skill Level in 5ER and 6E, and it's super-cheap. (1.5 (5ER) or 1 (6E) for a single attack, 2 for a tight group, and 3 for all attacks).

[Lucius]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Head shots are predictable but strange. With 1d6+3 we have

1/3 Head

1/6 Hands

1/3 Arms

1/6 Shoulders

 

Why are hands so likely to be hit with this shot? And no chance for the rest of the body, like the chest?

 

Because, even if we assume the target is not trying to block your attack, if he's engaged in melee with you, he's probably waving his own weapon around and therefore has his arm between your weapon and his head much of the time.

 

Also, if you're swinging something overhand, and miss the head, you're going to hit either the arms or shoulders. The only time you'd be likely to hit the chest is if your target is leaning back or something.

 

Granted, if you're attacking at range, this all starts to make less sense.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Making a hit location chart for the palindromedary

[Susano]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

In SCA combat, head shots tend to hit the head, the edge of the shield, or miss. Since you're trying to hit back, you may get hit in the arm trying to swing your sword and/or block with your sword. If you hit the torso, you either A) hit the shoulder, or didn't swing at the head (I know a sword blow that is designed to hit you in the chest around your shield).

 

If you don't have a shield, you still don't tend to hit the chest because you're usually swinging a flat blow parallel to the ground. However, you could rebuild the charts to reflect the target areas a bit better. So instead of simply rolling (say) 1d6+3 and seeing what you get based on the standard hit location chart, you can roll 1d6 or 2d6 or 3d6 and look at the "upper body" or "head shot" chart to see what you did hit.

 

Personally, I think any reasonably skilled SCA fighter (and thus any reasonably skilled fighter/martial artist) has +2 Penalty Skill Levels with counteracting Hit Location penalties. And if you're really good, you have +8 and can basically hit any part of the body you want at will (I've seen people that good).

[pinecone]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

I don't know about 6Th but not all uses are allowed for PSL's (Penalty skill levels) in 5Th I don't know Why PSL's were not always allowed....

 

So by taking Combat levels with a limit you avoid the whole "rules lawyer duel" thang....

[Tasha]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Yeah most of the special Location shots are sucker bets (Unless the target has minimal armor in those areas). I have found that 2-3 PSLs vs Hit Location applied to Chest shot are very effective. Doing that you have a nice average Stun Mult, and x1 body mult. While Chest tends to be the best armored position, hitting someone there tends to be a good value proposition.

 

A "Head Shot" can be sometimes very devastating as it narrows the number range, thereby increasing the chances for a location 3-5 Head Shot (x5 stun x2 body, usually unarmored). That kind of head shot averages with a location 6-7 so most of the time you will be hitting a x2 stun/1/2 body loc or worse a x1 stun, x1 body location. but with a 33% chance of hitting locations 4 or 5 it can be worth it. It's only a -4 OCV so it can be worth it on a low DCV tough guy esp if he's wearing a ton of heavy armor (esp as that tends to make his DCV even lower)

 

High Shots are rarely worth it as an average roll will hit an arm (7 or 8) with the same x1/x1 and a very small chance of hitting the head or any other decent loc.

 

Body shots are a nice way to use an OCV point esp if you can't afford to place a -3 into an out and out chest shot. They average 10-11 loc thus being a chest shot on average and also increasing odds that you will stay in the 9-13 sweet spot in the location chart

 

Low Shots never seem worth it. it averages 13-14 so it can kind of center around the Vitals (loc 13) area, but tends to roll more leg and foot shots than anything.

 

Leg shots hit location 14-15 guaranteeing that you hit the leg most of the time. I guess you use this shot if you are reasonably sure that you can impair or disable the location. Otherwise this is just a waste of a combat action.

 

These are the things I have observed in the many years of using the hit location chart. From games of Danger International, Fantasy Hero 1st Edition, Justice Inc, and many other non-superheroic genre games though the years. YMMV, but probably wont

 

Tasha

[torchwolf]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

About the only thing I can think of is that maybe trying to block or perhaps it's normal to have your arms and hands near your face when someone is aiming a gun at your head?

Oh yes, in a CSI game this might be called "defense wounds", very common IRL.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

I understand why the hands and arms are likely to be hit, but it still seems odd when using ranged attacks. Is there an alternate method so you don't get odd results like shooting off someone's thumb when attempting a head shot with your sniper rifle?

[Susano]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Change the results table?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

I meant has someone done so? Does it work? Is there a balance issue?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

I think you are also forgetting one important aspect of Placed Shots - Cover. I'm actually glad to see that there isn't that significant a difference in outcome for most of the placed shot locations. Taking a -4 to do a Head Shot because someone is bracing their rifle on the hood of a car shooting at you and they are only exposing those locations is perfect and still random.

 

I play a lot of gritty games that use hit location penalties and find that a combination of called shots, placed shots, and random shots works just fine when appropriate.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

(The above is from a strictly mathematical point of view and disregards disabling' date=' psychological effect on the enemy and companions, shooting to hit partially concealed targets or bypass armor, etc.).[/quote']

 

Then you've missed the point.

 

Reducing Hero to just the math does it a disservice.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

-8 to hit the head is too hard to hit (unless the character buys penalty skill levels)

 

the head shot which also may hit the shoulder isn't a bad idea but still not worth the loss in chance to hit at all

 

Players try aimed shots once or twice and then never again

the OCV penalties are too great

 

 

maybe reduce all aimed shot penalties by 2

I character could take a high shot, body shot and low shot with out penalty

[Susano]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

-8 to hit the head is too hard to hit (unless the character buys penalty skill levels)

 

the head shot which also may hit the shoulder isn't a bad idea but still not worth the loss in chance to hit at all

 

Players try aimed shots once or twice and then never again

the OCV penalties are too great

 

 

maybe reduce all aimed shot penalties by 2

I character could take a high shot, body shot and low shot with out penalty

 

Realize that you can hit the head all you want... as long as you don't get the benefits of a Called Headshot. So I can punch the sadistic stormtrooper in the jaw simply by saying "I punch him in the jaw!" As long as I don't demand x2 BODY and x2 STUN, I'm fine. And in some games, that -8 OCV isn't that big of a deal.

[Panpiper]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Personally, I think any reasonably skilled SCA fighter (and thus any reasonably skilled fighter/martial artist) has +2 Penalty Skill Levels with counteracting Hit Location penalties. And if you're really good, you have +8 and can basically hit any part of the body you want at will (I've seen people that good).

 

I spent seven years fighting twice a week in the SCA, in addition to 13 years of traditional martial arts. I completely concur with what Susano said. Against a highly trained opponent, I will take what shots present themselves (not 'placed' shots, just what is vulnerable). Against a lesser skilled opponent, yes, I can hit them where I will, when I will (more so with empty hand than with sword).

[Matt Holck]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

+2 penalty skill levels seems like a reasonable standard

as for skilled attacker versus unskilled opponents, that's just raw OCV and DCV from martial arts

 

 

Realize that you can hit the head all you want... as long as you don't get the benefits of a Called Headshot. So I can punch the sadistic stormtrooper in the jaw simply by saying "I punch him in the jaw!" As long as I don't demand x2 BODY and x2 STUN' date=' I'm fine. And in some games, that -8 OCV isn't that big of a deal.[/quote']

 

-8 Differences

takes an 11- chance to hit ~60%

to a 3- chance to hit ~0.5%

[tarragon]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Realize that you can hit the head all you want... as long as you don't get the benefits of a Called Headshot.

 

Some groups are OK with that kind of thing and some don't get it. I'm on the OK side of this; I wish more people were.

[Vondy]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

Another thing to keep in mind is whether or not disabling and impairing rules are in play. If they are the utility of a called/placed shot increases based on circumstances and desired outcome.

[Matt Holck]

Re: Placed shots effective?

 

The Kill Attack stun multiplier is frozen in the hit locations table.

That is why head shots are always so popular the KA does x5 stun.

That is also a reason the head is so hard to hit.

 

I propose that the stun multiplier for a Kill Attack still be determined by a die roll

where the hit location of attack would add or subtract from the roll.

A hit to the head. vitals or stomach would give a +1 stun multiplier

A hit to the hands. arms and legs would give a -1 stun multiplier

(this will make limb shots more popular as the target may take significant stun from being struck in a limb)