Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

[Chimera 12]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Let's not forget the entire "secret identity" conceit. Let us assume for a moment that costumed figures with more-than-human powers popped up in the real world all of a sudden and proceeded to engage in highly visible acts of heroism, villainy, and all-around grandstanding. How hard could finding out who such lunatics are when not hiding behind a mask really be, assuming sufficient interest (pretty much a given) and a reasonably competent team of investigators(*)? In the face of serious effort, how many superheroes could still expect to remain anonymous, say, about three or four months into their career?

 

(*) Granted, most comic book universes do seem to suffer from a certain dearth of those. It's probably part of why they need superheroes to help fight crime in the first place...

[Haerandir]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Pff... Investigators are unneccessary. This is what paparazzi do.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Let's not forget the entire "secret identity" conceit. Let us assume for a moment that costumed figures with more-than-human powers popped up in the real world all of a sudden and proceeded to engage in highly visible acts of heroism' date=' villainy, and all-around grandstanding. How hard could finding out who such lunatics are when not hiding behind a mask [i']really[/i] be, assuming sufficient interest (pretty much a given) and a reasonably competent team of investigators(*)? In the face of serious effort, how many superheroes could still expect to remain anonymous, say, about three or four months into their career?

 

(*) Granted, most comic book universes do seem to suffer from a certain dearth of those. It's probably part of why they need superheroes to help fight crime in the first place...

 

It may be that there's an unspoken understanding between the press and superhumans, because of the fact that people close to those superhumans would be put at extreme risk by such an "expose". You could certainly narrow down who a hero might be by looking at their body shape, height, weight, complexion, accent, shoe/boot size, etc. After the second or third hero got outed and their loved ones harmed, I think there'd be something worked out between the heroes, the government and the press to just not do those kinds of stories, because it severely disincentivizes doing an already very dangerous job, and because often villains who get outed like that will retaliate against the investigators themselves--which would tend to make exposing the identities of supervillains a pretty thankless job too.

[Chimera 12]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

It may be that there's an unspoken understanding between the press and superhumans' date=' because of the fact that people close to those superhumans would be put at extreme risk by such an "expose". You could certainly narrow down who a hero might be by looking at their body shape, height, weight, complexion, accent, shoe/boot size, etc. After the second or third hero got outed and their loved ones harmed, I think there'd be something worked out between the heroes, the government and the press to just not do those kinds of stories, because it severely disincentivizes doing an already very dangerous job, and because often villains who get outed like that will retaliate against the investigators themselves--which would tend to make exposing the identities of supervillains a pretty thankless job too.[/quote']

 

It's entirely possible that these kinds of concerns would in fact stop responsible, professional members of the press/government/police/whatever from making too much of a concerted effort. (That said, I'm pretty sure they'd remain curious all the same. Only human nature, after all, and as long as you're not planning to go public with the information, hey...What Could Go Wrong?)

 

On the other hand, that only leaves everybody else...

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I know Frank Castle's aging has been a point of pride from some of his writers -- they've mentioned it in letter columns and stuff' date=' at least, and have gone out of their way to say he IS (supposedly) aging, slowing down a little, etc. I know that "Born" established him as being involved in the closing days of the Vietnam War (not the opening), and he could've been -- I don't know -- twenty or so at the time? So Castle could be in his mid-late fifties, not necessarily sixties, at the moment. It's still a stretch for him to be as fit as he is, mind...but it's not QUITE as silly.[/quote']

 

Two Words (proper Nouns, actually): Jack LaLanne

 

Look closely at the timeline for his feats.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

It may be that there's an unspoken understanding between the press and superhumans' date=' because of the fact that people close to those superhumans would be put at extreme risk by such an "expose". You could certainly narrow down who a hero might be by looking at their body shape, height, weight, complexion, accent, shoe/boot size, etc. After the second or third hero got outed and their loved ones harmed, I think there'd be something worked out between the heroes, the government and the press to just not do those kinds of stories, because it severely disincentivizes doing an already very dangerous job, and because often villains who get outed like that will retaliate against the investigators themselves--which would tend to make exposing the identities of supervillains a pretty thankless job too.[/quote']

 

There's more to it than just the press. The first time a villain is hauled into court and forced to unmask, his defense attorney is going to ask the cops how he was brought in. The cops, being truthful, are going to say "He was apprehended by Mega-Ultra-Guy." The defense attorney is immediately going to call Mega-Ultra-Guy as a witness, and he'll be forced to unmask as well.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

It may be that there's an unspoken understanding between the press and superhumans' date=' because of the fact that people close to those superhumans would be put at extreme risk by such an "expose". You could certainly narrow down who a hero might be by looking at their body shape, height, weight, complexion, accent, shoe/boot size, etc. After the second or third hero got outed and their loved ones harmed, I think there'd be something worked out between the heroes, the government and the press to just not do those kinds of stories, because it severely disincentivizes doing an already very dangerous job, and because often villains who get outed like that will retaliate against the investigators themselves--which would tend to make exposing the identities of supervillains a pretty thankless job too.[/quote']

 

 

I think that the concept of secret identity is a little long in the tooth, but I also don't think it means exactly what some people think it means all the time either. Secret identity doesn't mean that absolutely no one knows who you are. It means that the vast majority of people don't know who you are. IIRC, haven't there been multiple story lines at both major publishers about government databases and such. I seem to remember Amanda Waller basically telling Batman on a couple of occasions that she knew who he was. It was just that it wasn't in her interest to divulge the information.

 

People in the real word live double lives all the time. Think about the guys who marry two or three different women at the same time. How long did it take Tiger Woods's house of cards to collapse, and he is hounded by the media all the time. You have to work to make the secret Id thing palatable to modern audiences, but I'm not sure that it should be eliminated. To me, it's whatever works for the story and is not too jarring.

 

Also, going after the family or girlfriend is not always the tactic a villain is going to use. Some will, others will not. It depends on what hey think they can get out of it and what motivates them personally. If Captain Extreme was a pain in my a** before, imagine how single-minded he will be after I burn down his house with his family inside. Some villains are just doing business, and the odd prison stretch is part of the job. Now, the true loonies and sadists are another story.

 

The problem is that if you don't want to go full Iron Age all the time, which gets old, you have to play within certain boundaries set up by the genre. People who break all of the rules just to say they did it, or for shock value, don't always create entertaining stories. I've seen outstanding work by people who draw within the lines with only a few stray marks.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I'd like to add one, if I may.

 

Everyone knows that there is an objective difference in physical capability between superhumans and "normals". In some cases this can be explained by a known, physical difference in superhumans and normals, such as the mutant gene or the Wild Card virus. But, especially if superhumans have been around for a long time, it may not be obvious at a glance that a "normal" guy who just happens to be able to lift two tons is an actual superhuman. More to the point, in a world where everyone has heard of people who can fly through the air and lift a hundred tons over their heads, where does the average person on the street believe the line between normal and super is?

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

To paraphrase an old adage: "A villain, once exposed, has refuge only in audacity."

The rub, of course, is that when a person armed with the kind of powers supervillains typically have suddenly becomes "audacious", LOTS (understatement) of people can get hurt or killed. Thus, I imagine there would be no public unmasking of a villain unless the authorities were planning to either a) lock him up and throw away the key or sit him down on Old Sparky.

[Clonus]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

There's more to it than just the press. The first time a villain is hauled into court and forced to unmask' date=' his defense attorney is going to ask the cops how he was brought in. The cops, being truthful, are going to say "He was apprehended by Mega-Ultra-Guy." The defense attorney is immediately going to call Mega-Ultra-Guy as a witness, and he'll be forced to unmask as well.[/quote']

 

How's the defense going to serve the sub poena?

[Clonus]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I'd like to add one, if I may.

 

Everyone knows that there is an objective difference in physical capability between superhumans and "normals". In some cases this can be explained by a known, physical difference in superhumans and normals, such as the mutant gene or the Wild Card virus. But, especially if superhumans have been around for a long time, it may not be obvious at a glance that a "normal" guy who just happens to be able to lift two tons is an actual superhuman. More to the point, in a world where everyone has heard of people who can fly through the air and lift a hundred tons over their heads, where does the average person on the street believe the line between normal and super is?

 

Actually we already see that in Marvel Comics with characters like The Ox, and Wilson Fisk. They actually seem to be regarded as on the human side of the superhuman/human divide, but they actually have physical strength that considerably exceeds what is really possible even for really big guys.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

How's the defense going to serve the sub poena?

 

What, you've never heard of the Silver Server?

[martin4frogs]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

In response to the unmasking in court thing, they actually touched on that in Ultimate Spider-man. I don't quite recall the issue, but Spidey is confused as to why the Shocker is not locked up. He's certain he's beat the snot out of him and left him for the police an incredible amount of times. It gets explained to him by a lawyer: He's not in jail because he hasn't been arrested properly, if Spidey wants him locked up, he needs to take him to the police himself and make an official report, which would mean unmasking. Otherwise the case gets thrown out of court and he walks.

 

So, that tends to happen in comics from time to time.

[Clonus]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

In response to the unmasking in court thing, they actually touched on that in Ultimate Spider-man. I don't quite recall the issue, but Spidey is confused as to why the Shocker is not locked up. He's certain he's beat the snot out of him and left him for the police an incredible amount of times. It gets explained to him by a lawyer: He's not in jail because he hasn't been arrested properly, if Spidey wants him locked up, he needs to take him to the police himself and make an official report, which would mean unmasking. Otherwise the case gets thrown out of court and he walks.

 

So, that tends to happen in comics from time to time.

 

 

Technically, the way a person is arrested has no bearing on whether his case will get thrown out of court. It could be the case that Spider-Man was the only witness to whatever crime Shocker was committing, in which case lacking physical evidence there would be no basis for filing charges. But if there were bystanders able to testify, that the person who stopped him didn't testify would have no bearing on the validity of the case.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Technically' date=' the way a person is arrested has no bearing on whether his case will get thrown out of court. It could be the case that Spider-Man was the only witness to whatever crime Shocker was committing, in which case lacking physical evidence there would be no basis for filing charges. But if there were bystanders able to testify, that the person who stopped him didn't testify would have no bearing on the validity of the case.[/quote']

 

Plus, while I can see that happening in the Ultimate universe, because superheroes are brand new, in the Marvel and DC universe where masked crimefighters have been around for up to 90 years, depending on what current continuity says, I'd think there'd be something worked out as a reliable way for masked heroes to testify. After all, confidential informants and undercover officers do it.

[Clonus]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

To paraphrase an old adage: "A villain' date=' once exposed, has refuge only in audacity."[/font']

The rub, of course, is that when a person armed with the kind of powers supervillains typically have suddenly becomes "audacious", LOTS (understatement) of people can get hurt or killed. Thus, I imagine there would be no public unmasking of a villain unless the authorities were planning to either a) lock him up and throw away the key or sit him down on Old Sparky.

 

There was some indication in Marvel Comics that they actually had some kind of mask protection law to the effect that masked people could only be unmasked against their will once actually charged with a crime. Captain Stacey once intervened to stop Spider-Man from being unmasked after being arrested, and indicated that it was his right to keep his mask on. But supervillains in both Marvel and DC have no secret identity once charged unless they fabricate a new ID for themselves.

[Cygnia]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

The cynic in me wonders just how ungrateful/whiny John Q. Public would be about supers: "violation of rights/due process", "taking away jobs from proper authorities", "[bLEEP]ing bleeding heart liberal cowards who don't finish off the scum when they have the chance", "[bLEEP]ing jackbooted neocons with Dirty Harry power complexes who think they've got the right to play executioner"...

 

Why yes, I've been exposed to too many idiots posting in the comments section of Yahoo News, how could you tell?

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Technically' date=' the way a person is arrested has no bearing on whether his case will get thrown out of court. It could be the case that Spider-Man was the only witness to whatever crime Shocker was committing, in which case lacking physical evidence there would be no basis for filing charges. But if there were bystanders able to testify, that the person who stopped him didn't testify would have no bearing on the validity of the case.[/quote']

 

An attorney might correct me here, but my understanding is that a private citizen making an arrest is treated differently form a trained and deputized officer. A lot of procedural concepts that would tube a case intiated by the police would be passed over if the case was based on the intervention of a citizen. The rules of evidence, specifically small errors in search and seizure and such would not be as highly scrutinized.

 

Now, the right to face your accuser is another story. I have always assumed that the comics follow the same rules as Steve Long posited in the Champions Universe book on superheroes and the law. Otherwise, a lot of the fun of the stories would be lost.

[Clonus]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

An attorney might correct me here' date=' but my understanding is that a private citizen making an arrest is treated differently form a trained and deputized officer. A lot of procedural concepts that would tube a case intiated by the police would be passed over if the case was based on the intervention of a citizen. The rules of evidence, specifically small errors in search and seizure and such would not be as highly scrutinized. [/quote']

 

Superheroes rarely gather or provide evidence in the first place. But it is true, that there was a very well-publicized case of a private investigator breaking into someone's place and gathering the evidence against them, and because they were not employed by the police, the evidence was admissable without a warrant.

 

 

Now, the right to face your accuser is another story. I have always assumed that the comics follow the same rules as Steve Long posited in the Champions Universe book on superheroes and the law. Otherwise, a lot of the fun of the stories would be lost.

 

The typical superhero is not the accuser, though. The accuser is the victim. The superhero is just some random loonie who immobilized the perpetrator for the authorities, probably saving the victim in the process. Which brings us to another insupportable premise. Even when a hero has no particular crime finding abilities, isn't it amazing how they manage to stumble across it?

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

The typical superhero is not the accuser' date=' though. The accuser is the victim. The superhero is just some random loonie who immobilized the perpetrator for the authorities, probably saving the victim in the process. Which brings us to another insupportable premise. Even when a hero has no particular crime finding abilities, isn't it amazing how they manage to stumble across it?[/quote']

 

Detect Crime, 3 points.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Detect Crime' date=' 3 points.[/quote']

 

Plot Propulsion, 0 points.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

The typical superhero is not the accuser' date=' though. The accuser is the victim. The superhero is just some random loonie who immobilized the perpetrator for the authorities, probably saving the victim in the process. Which brings us to another insupportable premise. Even when a hero has no particular crime finding abilities, isn't it amazing how they manage to stumble across it?[/quote']

 

I guess I was thinking more of the situations where the hero is interrupting some big deal in a wharehouse, or uncovering some mass conspiracy. Muggings and bank robberies are a little more straigh forward I suppose. Short of going all Frnak Castle on them, how would the average costumed vigilante really deal with a big RICO case? I know they often just pass the info off to the appropriate officials, but that isn't always the case. I have to admit that I don't read as many comics as I once did. Most of what I've read recently has been more of the high body count sort of book anyway.

[incrdbil]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Duri

The Last Line takes its name from the slogan "The Last Line of Defense". The Last Line is a top-secret combat squadron designed for one specific purpose. To combat and defeat Superman. Led by Amanda Waller, the Last Line's primary function was to protect humanity in the event that Superman should ever turn against the United States. The group's membership includes soldiers from all branches of military service including the United States Marine Corps, the U.S. Army, Navy and even the Defense Department. All of the members of the Last Line are outfitted with body armor powered by Kryptonite. For years they have managed to stockpile an immense cache of Kryptonite by drilling from an asteroid just outside of Earth's orbit. When Superman and Batman undertook a quest to rid the Earth of all Kryptonite, they stumbled upon a trail which ultimately led them back to the Last Line's underground bunker. Waller's resourcefulness enabled her to capture and contain Batman, while the Last Line attacked Superman with weapons made of Kryptonite.

 

Is it just me, or would everyone else be pleased to see some ordinary schmuck from the DC universe put a bullet in Wallers head?

 

On topic: I'd love to see a comic where a superhero comes upon a former villian..who is now legit, and does private industary work, making far more money than he ever stole, and living far richer (and with more professional respect) than the superhero.

 

Your average dumb brick could make a firtune in the construction indutry, the moving industry, salavge. Even better, telekenesis. you coudl be on retainer for so many emergency situations, especially with indirect abilities. Nuclear reactor emergency response, bomb disposal..'street' level villains driven by greed to steal make more sense to me than many super-powered villains.

 

And as for a telepath..yeesh.

[Wanderer]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I'll do the rest one at a time as they occur to me:

 

6. Rampant exhibitionism. People with beyond-perfect physiques running around in skin-tight/sheer/body-hugging costumes, that in the case of female heroes are barely there. This isn't necessarily an insupportable premise, but that a bunch of people run around in these outfits and generally don't spend significant amounts of time staring at each other, and that non-supers also generally don't gawk for all that much time either, is a bit much. I would go into the whole supers-rarely-get-sexually-assaulted-after-being-KOed, but I do think there's a supportable premise for that, based on my point about the Iron Age above--nobody really wants to go there much, because retaliation would be...severe. But it is still just a tad insupportable to put people in costumes that would qualify them as exhibitionists in the real world, and have the public reaction be muted compared to what it might be in the real world if a taller, bustier Megan Fox walked down the street dressed like a patriotic hooker.

 

Hmm, personally, I'm not bothered at all by this comic book trope. I find easy enough to justify the vast majority of superhumans having a perfect body physique and extended youth longevity as positive side effect of activated superhuman genes, and the vast majority of superhuman origins can be rationalized as activated X-genes in one way or another. I also think that if one had a perfect physique, the kind of taste for public exposition that brings one to pick heroism as a career, and such godlike personal power as to scare off disrepect, exibitionism becomes natural.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I'd say I'm not overly bothered by any of these tropes. Most genres have their own insupportable tropes, and fall apart if you pick away at them enough. I recall overhearing someone in a comic store some years ago note that he "only liked realistic superheroes- like the Punisher". Realistic? How many times has he been shot, had bones broken, etc. yet he is none the worse for wear. No old nagging injuries. Not even scars. He doesn't heal as fast, but he heals jsut as effectively as Wolverine.

 

Action movies? Try diving through a plate glass window in real life - how does that compare to the typical action movie?