Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

[megaplayboy]

The discussion about comic book supergeniuses who somehow barely affect the overall tech level of the world at large got me thinking about some of the tropes/conventions/premises of comic book universes (as depicted in a typical Marvel/DC book) that seem insupportable on closer inspection:

1. Nothing the heroes do will alter the general status quo very much--Reed Richards can create FTL drives, artificial intelligence devices, limitless power supplies, and none of it will ever filter down to the guy in the street or have much impact on his job or his personal life. The world can repeatedly make contact with alien empires capable of laying the planet to waste or invading at any time, and it has little to no impact on international relations or how people see themselves in relation to people in other countries. Even when the world does seem to change, or react, it tends to "reset to default" within 6-24 issues or so.

2. Nobody who's an adult will ever age more than 10 years, and those who start as kids will age at an incredibly varied rate--Johnny Storm and Peter Parker, if they aged with their titles, would be about to collect Social Security in the next couple years. Aunt May, if she was still alive, would be one of the oldest humans on the planet. Franklin Richards would be in his early 40s. Now, if it were simply a matter of retconning everything perpetually, so that stuff that happened in the 60s now happened just 10-15 years ago, maybe that would be tolerable. But then they seem to reference that stuff as if it still did happen in the 60s! I don't think Frank Castle has been retconned as a vet of some war other than Vietnam...yet. And he's not superhuman in any way, so he should be pushing 70 by now. Boy, he sure looks good for his age.

3. The existence of superhumans, magic, aliens, artificial intelligences, other dimensions, etc. has little to no impact on peoples' belief systems--whether they're an atheist, monotheist, or what have you, seeing some guy calling himself a god while controlling the weather, altering the course of rivers, rearranging matter, healing people with a gesture, or even altering reality itself has had little effect on any organized religion or prominent unbeliever. A little bit hard to swallow, methinks.

4. The Iron Age trope of superhumans going berserk and killing massive numbers of people, or supervillains-gone-berserk and superheroes-gone-vigilante playing a horrific game of "can you top this?"--most supervillains are in the business of personal gain, and most heroes are doing what they do for some reason that's at least vaguely heroic, and the natural consequences of that type of storyline would be a bunch of the more coldly rational and pragmatic villains realizing that mass atrocity is extraordinarily bad for business, and the more sane heroes also realizing that these guys bumping off villains are going to get everyone's lives ruined/DNPCs rapetorturemurdered/giant public freakout followed by legions of Sentinels or Kryptonite-powered battlesuited Federal agents rounding everyone up.

5. Saving the world in a very public way will not make you a lot of money or get you laid--astronauts get parades, activists get nobel prizes, war heroes never have to pay for their own beer...but superheroes(most of them, anyway) never enjoy any lasting benefits from SAVING THE WHOLE FRICKIN' WORLD ON TEEVEE! I can see some principled guy like Captain America or Superman declining offers of speaking fees, book deals, and a ludicrously vast collection of phone numbers from hawt chix, but there are a lot of superheroes, and they aren't all as fussy as those guys.

 

5 more tomorrow...

[wick]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I can think of one comic series that did take the world into account. Watchmen. of course Watchmen is more Science Fiction than Comic. Supergenius tech changed the World. Characters grew old. Dr. Manhattan was used a pawn by the government in the Cold War with Russia and more directly in Vietnam. Ozimandius capitalized on his fame as a superhero for profit (not that it was needed with his genius and business acumen.) The entire Comic series was restricted to a certain timeline so you did not have to worry about real world changes showing up in the Comic.

 

 

Of course, this Graphic novel is an exception.

 

My campaign will certainly touch on many of the issues that you have brought up.

 

You also forgot to mention, that Biologically speaking, for every useful, extreme mutation, how many mutations should be extremely deleterious. There should be masses of stillborn and malformed babies for every Jean Grey or Scott Summers. And I am not talking about malformed mutants with usefull powers like the Morlocks either.

 

In the DC universe i am surprised that the US government has not tried to kill/capture/ or control superman or at the very least developed means to do so (please forgive my ignorance of the DC universe if this has been explored.) It may be nice and fine that supes is patriotic and beats up criminals but there are criminal politicians or even if they are honest they may have a policy that supes does not like. Imagine Superman flying around and destroying abortion clinics, and the authorities can do nothing. I don't see even a benevolent Country willing to be powerless against one single "man"

[GoldenAge]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

In the DC universe i am surprised that the US government has not tried to kill/capture/ or control superman or at the very least developed means to do so (please forgive my ignorance of the DC universe if this has been explored.) It may be nice and fine that supes is patriotic and beats up criminals but there are criminal politicians or even if they are honest they may have a policy that supes does not like. Imagine Superman flying around and destroying abortion clinics' date=' and the authorities can do nothing. I don't see even a benevolent Country willing to be powerless against one single "man"[/quote']

 

During the Superman/Batman storyline "K", it is revealed that [Amanda] Waller has hoarded Kryptonite and used it to power an anti-Superman group called the Last Line, and a Doomsday-like creature codenamed "All-American Boy", who has Kryptonite shards growing out of his body. All-American Boy, (real name: Josh Walker) was deceived into an experiment to use Kryptonite to bond cell scrapings taken from Doomsday to a human host, battles Superman, devastating Smallville in the process. Batman, with the help of Brannon, the Last Line's leader, locate Josh's parents, who convince him to stop. Waller is forced to pay towards repairing Smallville in return for her dealings in the All American Boy project to remain secret.

 

The Last Line takes its name from the slogan "The Last Line of Defense". The Last Line is a top-secret combat squadron designed for one specific purpose. To combat and defeat Superman. Led by Amanda Waller, the Last Line's primary function was to protect humanity in the event that Superman should ever turn against the United States. The group's membership includes soldiers from all branches of military service including the United States Marine Corps, the U.S. Army, Navy and even the Defense Department. All of the members of the Last Line are outfitted with body armor powered by Kryptonite. For years they have managed to stockpile an immense cache of Kryptonite by drilling from an asteroid just outside of Earth's orbit. When Superman and Batman undertook a quest to rid the Earth of all Kryptonite, they stumbled upon a trail which ultimately led them back to the Last Line's underground bunker. Waller's resourcefulness enabled her to capture and contain Batman, while the Last Line attacked Superman with weapons made of Kryptonite.

[Greywind]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

1) Spacing between paragraphs is good!

 

2) Characters may/may not age appropriately. But when the overall reality depicted does not mesh with OUR in correlation to time passed, how then do you judge appropriate time passage for aging?

 

Kitty Pryde had two 16th birthdays, became a mature woman and then regressed to late teens.

 

Marvel, on average, has Christmas once every 5 years real time. You have entire story arcs that may be a day or a week in the story taking over two years to tell in comic format.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

There are several ways to keep time on track in comics. Time can pass as shown in the comic and it becomes disjointed with reality, but as long as brand new tech doesn't pop up in the story, it doesn't matter. Or, the storyline can wrap up and then time passes "off screen" to bring the comics back in line with reality. I've always liked the stories best that wrap up in a single issue, or at most 2 or 3 issues. Most of the on-going "stories" without a distinct beginning and end come off as soap opera in spandex to me.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Speaking of old (normal) heroes: You mention Frank Castle (Punisher), a Vietnam Vet. What about Nick Fury, a World War Two Vet? If Frank is pushing 70, then Nick is dragging 90!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Speaking of old (normal) heroes: You mention Frank Castle (Punisher)' date=' a Vietnam Vet. What about Nick Fury, a World War Two Vet? If Frank is pushing 70, then Nick is dragging 90![/quote']

 

Fury takes the Infinity Formula or somesuch, which retards his aging.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Fury takes the Infinity Formula or somesuch' date=' which retards his aging.[/quote']

 

I had forgotten.

 

Which, amazingly enough, isn't available at any price on the black market (linking to point one).

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

3. The existence of superhumans' date=' magic, aliens, artificial intelligences, other dimensions, etc. has little to no impact on peoples' belief systems--whether they're an atheist, monotheist, or what have you, seeing some guy calling himself a god while controlling the weather, altering the course of rivers, rearranging matter, healing people with a gesture, or even altering reality itself has had little effect on any organized religion or prominent unbeliever. A little bit hard to swallow, methinks.[/quote']

 

A Rabbi once explained that if a voice from the heavens claimed to be G-d, but commanded you to do something contrary to Torah, then it wasn't G-d. I think most people who aren't prepared to abandon their cherished beliefs will not abandon them just because some guy in spandex claims divinity. It's equally (of not more) likely that the god-in-spandex suffers from delusions of grandeur. People who think they possess power tend to exaggerate the importance of this fact, regardless of the actual amount of power they possess.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

A Rabbi once explained that if a voice from the heavens claimed to be G-d' date=' but commanded you to do something contrary to Torah, then it wasn't G-d. I think most people who aren't prepared to abandon their cherished beliefs will not abandon them just because some guy in spandex claims divinity. It's equally (of not more) likely that the god-in-spandex suffers from delusions of grandeur. People who think they possess power tend to exaggerate the importance of this fact, regardless of the actual amount of power they possess.[/quote']

 

At the same time, you'd think there'd be plenty of people willing to do the bidding of these guys in spandex claiming to be gods. I mean, seriously, there are some crazy cults out there in the real world, and their leaders can't shrug off gunfire or call down lightning from the heavens. I'm surprised the comics don't have a bunch of vigilante Thor cultists out there taking on street crime with hammers.

[Egyptoid]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

World-Spanning magic threats that completely bind all of the X-Men's hands,

and no-one has Stephen Strange on speed-dial.

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Oh yeah, and back on an earlier subtopic...it occurred to me that if Marvel had allowed comic time to come unhitched from real time, that it would probably be mid-1970s or so in Fantastic Four, and Reed Richards could have iphone clones on the market. It would be the best of both worlds...real world tech can show up disjointed comic time, and the high-tech inventors can have an effect on the world.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I had forgotten.

 

Which, amazingly enough, isn't available at any price on the black market (linking to point one).

 

Ditto Black Widow these days.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

A Rabbi once explained that if a voice from the heavens claimed to be G-d' date=' but commanded you to do something contrary to Torah, then it wasn't G-d. I think most people who aren't prepared to abandon their cherished beliefs will not abandon them just because some guy in spandex claims divinity. It's equally (of not more) likely that the god-in-spandex suffers from delusions of grandeur. People who think they possess power tend to exaggerate the importance of this fact, regardless of the actual amount of power they possess.[/quote']

 

True, though I'd forgotten to note the most famous superhero in all of comicdom died very publicly and then later returned from the dead. There are also demons and angels running around...

[Greywind]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Ditto Black Widow these days.

This is true. You'll never find the Black Widow for sale on the black market...

[Jhamin]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I had forgotten.

 

Which, amazingly enough, isn't available at any price on the black market (linking to point one).

 

And the only person to use it is a soldier, not a scientific Genius, a politician, or a captain of industry.

 

I mean really, if Ronald Regan could have lived forever how many people would have gone along with it? Or if Warren Buffet decided to fund 5 more Nick Furies in exchange for an extended life?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

This is true. You'll never find the Black Widow for sale on the black market...

 

MMM...black market Natalia Romanova clones...:drool:

 

oh, sorry...what were we talking about?

[Escafarc]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

And the only person to use it is a soldier, not a scientific Genius, a politician, or a captain of industry.

 

I mean really, if Ronald Regan could have lived forever how many people would have gone along with it? Or if Warren Buffet decided to fund 5 more Nick Furies in exchange for an extended life?

 

If I remember correctly Nick and the Countess were the only two to get the Infinty Formula and the scientist that invented was killed and the formula was lost. But that has most likely been reconned.

[Squall]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

I know Frank Castle's aging has been a point of pride from some of his writers -- they've mentioned it in letter columns and stuff, at least, and have gone out of their way to say he IS (supposedly) aging, slowing down a little, etc. I know that "Born" established him as being involved in the closing days of the Vietnam War (not the opening), and he could've been -- I don't know -- twenty or so at the time? So Castle could be in his mid-late fifties, not necessarily sixties, at the moment. It's still a stretch for him to be as fit as he is, mind...but it's not QUITE as silly. There's also the possibility he suffered some minor anti-aging from that (silly and unfortunate) "assassin for the angels" story arc they did several years ago.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

3. The existence of superhumans' date=' magic, aliens, artificial intelligences, other dimensions, etc. has little to no impact on peoples' belief systems--whether they're an atheist, monotheist, or what have you, seeing some guy calling himself a god while controlling the weather, altering the course of rivers, rearranging matter, healing people with a gesture, or even altering reality itself has had little effect on any organized religion or prominent unbeliever. A little bit hard to swallow, methinks...[/quote']

Along those same lines, what about all of the people coming back from the dead? That's sure to have a major impact on at least few ideologies.

[Mister E]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

The super-punk Marvel 2099 setting had Christianity taking a backseat to the Church of Thor.

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

MMM...black market Natalia Romanova clones...:drool:

 

oh, sorry...what were we talking about?

 

If Malachite/Teleios were to discreetly market Scarlet Johansson replicants, how much business would he drum up?

[Drhoz]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

2. Nobody who's an adult will ever age more than 10 years

 

One of the reasons I like 2000 AD - Judge Dredd has been aging pretty much in real time in the comic's 37 year history. He's in his 60s now, and even with the future-medicine and rejuve techniques ( and the later was only accepted by Dredd because the Chief Judge ordered him to ) he knows he isn't going to last forever. His replacements are already on the streets

 

 

Same with Nikolai Dante - he's certainly got a lot of grey hairs over the run of that story

[Nuclear Fridge]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

Given the horrific stresses Dante's been through, grey hairs are only to be expected.

And I may be wrong about this, but I have the feeling that Joe Dredd isn't going to last much longer.

[wick]

Re: Top 10 Insupportable Premises in Comic Book Universes

 

On Religion:

 

Interview with a preacher:

 

Preacher: So Alien X you are the member of an Alien Race that spans over 100 star systems which is allied with over 2 dozen comparable sized allied star empires?

 

Alien X: That is correct human.

 

Preacher: So how many of people would you say believe in God?

 

Alien X: Which God?

 

Preacher: uhh... well..you know.. God.

 

Alien X: As in the one that you yourself worship?

 

Preacher: Uhh..Yes

 

Alien X(doing some calculations in his head): A few hundred million but just on one planet.

 

 

I think that proof of extraterestrial life will shake the very foundations of Earth's Religions. Heck, there are people who practically worship aliens and UFOs now and have origin of human mythologies the center on an extraterrestrial origin for humans and this is based on wild speculation and conspiracy theory. In comic worlds Aliens should practically have seats at the UN.

 

As for Gods, mythical beasts, angels, demons etc...if you have a mixture of these that would shake the world too.

Christian: Look at the proof of my God ..(points to an angel fighting a demon over the city)

Skeptic: Yeah but what about them ( points to Hercules fighting Thor) or her (points to Shiva walking down the street destroying everything in her path)

 

Basically if Angels and Demons are proof than so are these other entities and they at least point out that there are other dieties which would rock Monotheistic religions.

 

I am not saying truly religious people would throw in the towel but many people who are not very religious would definitely find more reasons not to believe. Polytheistic religions would just expand to encompass more gods much like the Romans did, they felt you should not anger any Gods so venerated all (their main gripe with Christians is that the Christians did not pay respect or homage to the other gods and they felt this would bring doom down on all of their heads.)