Stacking Dodge

[The Main Man]

A friend and I argued with another friend over whether a character could Dodge as a Half Phase Action and then Abort their next Phase to Dodge again in order to stack the DCV bonuses. We argued that his idea is both mechanically and realistically absurd, but his sophistry boiled down to arguing that if a character dodged, they could "dodge harder/faster."

 

We picked apart argument by argument, moved goalpost by moved goalpost. Then he asserted that we should bring it up to the HERO Games Forums. I agreed, so here I am.

 

So maybe my friend and I are wrong after all. I'll spare all of you our arguments for now because I'd rather hear all of yours on either side of the issue. More importantly, let's discuss the SFX side of the argument, as that was the bulk of his.

[OddHat]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

His dodge bonus goes away at the start of his next phase. As soon as he aborts his next phase, the first dodge bonus goes away and the new dodge bonus takes over. If he wants to buy levels with dodge to reflect dodging "harder", that's legal. A very kind GM might bend the rules and let him Push his DCV, as a GM's call.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

If he aborts, his previous phase ends and that Dodge bonus goes away, so he is left with the same Dodge bonus. By Aborting, he has ended the previous phase.

[Fearghus]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Well both of the other players said it. you can't dodge twice at the same time any more than you can stack other multiple combat maneuvers. You can't get the bonuses from an offensive strike and Dodge at the same time, so you can't get the bonuses from two dodges at the same time because you character can not do two things at the same time.

 

Do not argue with an idiot... They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Don't try to confuse me with facts... My mind is already made up!

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

A friend and I argued with another friend over whether a character could Dodge as a Half Phase Action and then Abort their next Phase to Dodge again in order to stack the DCV bonuses. We argued that his idea is both mechanically and realistically absurd' date=' but his sophistry boiled down to arguing that if a character dodged, they could "dodge harder/faster."[/quote']

 

If he wants to, "Dodge harder/faster," he needs to increase his DCV, buy CSLs, or buy martial maneuvers. A defense-only martial art might be interesting.

[Kickingent]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

I don't see why you shouldn't stack the bonus. If you declare dodge on your phase your trying to move evasively in prediction of an attack. If you used your phase and then you make another move prior to your next phase, your moving faster/harder in reaction to an attack. So if you weren't changing perogative from your first phase, then you can be moving faster/harder to avoid attacks. The bonus would dissappear on the aborted phase to represent that they are moving faster/and harder than they should. If they want to represent that faster/harder is normal they should buy more SPD. Either way Phases are fuzzy logic, a person can only move as fast as their SPD. If you abort your next action to go faster/harder, then a person already trying to be evasive should be able to be Faster as well. Being Evasive, bonus, Aborting, faster than normal, bonus.

Thats two reasonable bonuses. If a person isn't being faster when aborting, what are they doing?

[The Main Man]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

I don't see why you shouldn't stack the bonus. If you declare dodge on your phase your trying to move evasively in prediction of an attack. If you used your phase and then you make another move prior to your next phase, your moving faster/harder in reaction to an attack. So if you weren't changing perogative from your first phase, then you can be moving faster/harder to avoid attacks. The bonus would dissappear on the aborted phase to represent that they are moving faster/and harder than they should. If they want to represent that faster/harder is normal they should buy more SPD. Either way Phases are fuzzy logic, a person can only move as fast as their SPD. If you abort your next action to go faster/harder, then a person already trying to be evasive should be able to be Faster as well. Being Evasive, bonus, Aborting, faster than normal, bonus.

Thats two reasonable bonuses. If a person isn't being faster when aborting, what are they doing?

Did you just run to this thread because you disliked this forum's responses to yours in the Champions section? Are you that obtuse and stubborn? You wanted this forum's opinions and you got 'em. Instead of sucking it up, you simply try again here to restate your entire argument as if no one even touched it. Why not hyperlink to your thread?

[Lucius]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

If a person isn't being faster when aborting, what are they doing?

 

What they're doing is ending one phase, and beginning the next, sooner than normal.

 

In the case of someone aborting from one Dodge to another Dodge, for example, they are ending the DCV bonus for the first Dodge and gaining the DCV bonus for the next Dodge sooner than would otherwise be the case.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is experiencing deja vu

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Did you just run to this thread because you disliked this forum's responses to yours in the Champions section? Are you that obtuse and stubborn? You wanted this forum's opinions and you got 'em. Instead of sucking it up' date=' you simply try again here to restate your entire argument as if no one even touched it. Why not hyperlink to your thread?[/quote']

 

Kickingent -- it's been explained to you repeatedly, by people who know the Hero system inside-out, that the Hero rules don't work the way you'd like them to. Now it's time to man up, spend some character points on DCV like everyone else, and move on.

 

And no, you may NOT apply the Autofire advantage to the Martial Dodge maneuver.

[Greywind]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

I don't see why you shouldn't stack the bonus. If you declare dodge on your phase your trying to move evasively in prediction of an attack. If you used your phase and then you make another move prior to your next phase, your moving faster/harder in reaction to an attack. So if you weren't changing perogative from your first phase, then you can be moving faster/harder to avoid attacks. The bonus would dissappear on the aborted phase to represent that they are moving faster/and harder than they should. If they want to represent that faster/harder is normal they should buy more SPD. Either way Phases are fuzzy logic, a person can only move as fast as their SPD. If you abort your next action to go faster/harder, then a person already trying to be evasive should be able to be Faster as well. Being Evasive, bonus, Aborting, faster than normal, bonus.

Thats two reasonable bonuses. If a person isn't being faster when aborting, what are they doing?

They aren't being faster. Bonuses don't stack because the game doesn't work that way.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

His dodge bonus goes away at the start of his next phase. As soon as he aborts his next phase' date=' the first dodge bonus goes away and the new dodge bonus takes over. If he wants to buy levels with dodge to reflect dodging "harder", that's legal. A very kind GM might bend the rules and let him Push his DCV, as a GM's call.[/quote']

 

Yes, though I never thought of pushing your DCV. It's an interesting concept, but doesn't something have to cost END to use to be pushed? It seems like quite a rules bend. I might be convinced to allow an acrobatics style DCV bonus in the aborted sector if the player explained what he was doing in a creative way. That bonus would never amount to twice the bonus derived from Dodge or a martial maneuver.

 

Something like I dodged a blow or shot last phase, but while I was waiting for my next phase to come around the enemy decided to shoot me with something that I could never survive, so I changed tactics and blew up my Acrobatics/DEX roll after a very clever verbal description of what happened. It would not be an everyday thing either.

 

 

I don't see why you shouldn't stack the bonus. If you declare dodge on your phase your trying to move evasively in prediction of an attack. If you used your phase and then you make another move prior to your next phase, your moving faster/harder in reaction to an attack. So if you weren't changing perogative from your first phase, then you can be moving faster/harder to avoid attacks. The bonus would dissappear on the aborted phase to represent that they are moving faster/and harder than they should. If they want to represent that faster/harder is normal they should buy more SPD. Either way Phases are fuzzy logic, a person can only move as fast as their SPD. If you abort your next action to go faster/harder, then a person already trying to be evasive should be able to be Faster as well. Being Evasive, bonus, Aborting, faster than normal, bonus.

Thats two reasonable bonuses. If a person isn't being faster when aborting, what are they doing?

 

I can't see it logically, dramatically, or mechanically with the game system.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Say we have 3 characters:

The Artful Dodger (the Hero of this example) DEX 20, SPD 3

Thunder (The big brute) DEX 21, SPD 3

Lightning (The fast brute) DEX 23 SPD 4

 

Thunder & Lightning have just been surprised in the act of committing a crime by Arty. He is unfamiliar with these brute's capabilities so he cautiously delays his 'free' Phase 12 action and lets them make the first move.

Lightning decides to attack Arty on Phase 3. Arty uses his held action from Post Phase 12 to Dodge. Thunder follows Lightning's lead and decides to pick up a table and throw it at Arty on Phase 4. Arty's Dodge bonus is still in effect but seeing how big a table is headed his way (essentially an Area of Affect attack) he decides that more desperate measures are called for and decides to Abort his Phase 4 action to Dive For Cover out of the way of the flying table....

[Lucius]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

I'm going to buy DCV, Limited to only work against Multiple Attack manuevers or people using Teamwork to combine attacks.

 

Since it will only help to evade stacked attacks, I'll call it "Dodging Stacks."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks we should get out of Dodge

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Something else to consider...

 

HERO is all about customization. Applying house rules to make a game work the way a GM wants is great. But, to truly understand ALL the potential consequences (good and bad) of changing the rules as written (or RAW) the GM first needs to actually understand RAW.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Yes' date=' though I never thought of pushing your DCV. It's an interesting concept, but doesn't something have to cost END to use to be pushed? It seems like quite a rules bend. I might be convinced to allow an acrobatics style DCV bonus in the aborted sector if the player explained what he was doing in a creative way. That bonus would never amount to twice the bonus derived from Dodge or a martial maneuver. [/quote']

 

There's a "Super Skill" in Dark Champions (5E) called "Active Dodge" I think. It's extra DCV that costs endurance, so it would conceivably be push-able. But the bad news for our friend Kickingent is, Active Dodge isn't free, it requires spending character points for extra DCV.

 

Like everything else in the Hero System does.

[Clovis]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

I believe what the person is trying to bring up is that given his specific situation that the rules do not justify the claim. However this may be from a lack of understanding the rules, has this person read the books or is it a player just looking for a way to better a character?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

I don't see why you shouldn't stack the bonus. If you declare dodge on your phase your trying to move evasively in prediction of an attack. If you used your phase and then you make another move prior to your next phase' date=' your moving faster/harder in reaction to an attack.[/quote']

 

Emphasis mine. The disconnect is that you are not making another move prior to your next phase. When you Abort, that ends your current phase and begins your next phase.

 

If a person isn't being faster when aborting' date=' what are they doing?[/quote']

 

They are changing horses in mid-stream. The character who is already dodging does not need to Abort - he is already dodging. There is no reason for him to Abort to this defensive maneuver, as he is already applying the defensive maneuver. If I accepted your logic, I would also have to rule that a character who used an offensive strike, imposing a DCV penalty, on his last phase cannot eliminate that DCV penalty by Aborting to dodge, only apply the Dodge bonus to his reduced DCV. I guess I'd also have to rule that a character knocked to the ground on his last phase who Aborts to regain his footing would still take the DCV penalty for being prone until his next phase.

 

Aborting does not add a second action, it accelerates a change to what the character is doing, so what he was doing before he aborted has no further impact, for good or ill, on the character.

 

BTW, your comments seem to reflect another disconnect, in that you refer to dodging a single attack. Dodge is herospeak for "general evasive maneuvers" and applies to all attacks. Focused avoidance of a single attack is the Block maneuver, which avoids each specific attack in succession rather than applying a blanket bonus for avoiding all attacks.

 

I believe what the person is trying to bring up is that given his specific situation that the rules do not justify the claim. However this may be from a lack of understanding the rules' date=' has this person read the books or is it a player just looking for a way to better a character?[/quote']

 

I can't see this bettering a character - if he can do it, so can everyone else.

[OddHat]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Emphasis mine. The disconnect is that you are not making another move prior to your next phase. When you Abort, that ends your current phase and begins your next phase.

 

 

 

They are changing horses in mid-stream. The character who is already dodging does not need to Abort - he is already dodging. There is no reason for him to Abort to this defensive maneuver, as he is already applying the defensive maneuver. If I accepted your logic, I would also have to rule that a character who used an offensive strike, imposing a DCV penalty, on his last phase cannot eliminate that DCV penalty by Aborting to dodge, only apply the Dodge bonus to his reduced DCV. I guess I'd also have to rule that a character knocked to the ground on his last phase who Aborts to regain his footing would still take the DCV penalty for being prone until his next phase.

 

Aborting does not add a second action, it accelerates a change to what the character is doing, so what he was doing before he aborted has no further impact, for good or ill, on the character.

 

BTW, your comments seem to reflect another disconnect, in that you refer to dodging a single attack. Dodge is herospeak for "general evasive maneuvers" and applies to all attacks. Focused avoidance of a single attack is the Block maneuver, which avoids each specific attack in succession rather than applying a blanket bonus for avoiding all attacks.

 

 

 

I can't see this bettering a character - if he can do it, so can everyone else.

 

Exactly. Can't rep you again yet.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

I can see an improved form of Dodge as a house rule. It would give +4 DCV, but would require a Full Phase and could not be Aborted to.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

I can see an improved form of Dodge as a house rule. It would give +4 DCV' date=' but would require a Full Phase and could not be Aborted to.[/quote']

 

Or you could buy +1 level with Dodging (3 points), requires a full phase for the dodge (-1/2), not when aborting (-1/4) for 2 points.

[Kickingent]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Did you just run to this thread because you disliked this forum's responses to yours in the Champions section? Are you that obtuse and stubborn? You wanted this forum's opinions and you got 'em. Instead of sucking it up' date=' you simply try again here to restate your entire argument as if no one even touched it. Why not hyperlink to your thread?[/quote']

 

Nope didn't come because of the results of my post. If no one agrees with me thats just great. I'm sure many responses are from seasoned players that have played the system for tens of years. They look at the system in and out.

 

In conclusion, everyone likes the idea of aborting. Its not moving faster, its just ending your turn. Cause thats the effect. If you were to go on 1,6,12 and you punched a guy on phase 1, you were just punching away on 2-5, or just standing there. Or not there until a player attacks your sheet. SPD its not how fast you go, its how many turns you get, wanna be fast, buy dex. A term that has more to do with how you move, than how fast you move. And thats the way it is, cause thats the way its played.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Nope didn't come because of the results of my post. If no one agrees with me thats just great. I'm sure many responses are from seasoned players that have played the system for tens of years. They look at the system in and out.

 

In conclusion, everyone likes the idea of aborting. Its not moving faster, its just ending your turn. Cause thats the effect. If you were to go on 1,6,12 and you punched a guy on phase 1, you were just punching away on 2-5, or just standing there. Or not there until a player attacks your sheet. SPD its not how fast you go, its how many turns you get, wanna be fast, buy dex. A term that has more to do with how you move, than how fast you move. And thats the way it is, cause thats the way its played.

 

SPD = number of actions (or Phases) a character gets in a Turn

DEX = the initiative order in which a character acts on their Phases

Aborting = the ability to sacrifice a future Phase's full action to take a defensive action immediately

 

The way these 3 concepts interact has not really changed since the 1st edition of the rules.

 

It's not a matter of liking or disliking them. It's the way the system has worked since day 1.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

It might also be worth pointing out: technically there's no such thing as "Phase 3". Instead, the character has a Phase on Segment 3 of the Turn.

 

A Phase is simply the character's turn to act. During his Phase, a character can engage in any of the following: two Half-Phase actions, one Full Phase, or one Half-Phase and one combat action. (A combat action is defined as a Half-Phase action that ends the character's Phase. All attacks and all defensive actions, including Dodge, are combat actions.)

 

A Segment is a unit of time that happens to equal one second. A character can never engage in more than one Full Phase or combat action in a single Segment. If a character has acted during a Segment, he can't abort afterward. On the next Segment he can abort, in order to take his Phase sooner.

 

As already mentioned, bonuses from combat actions last until the character's next Phase. If a SPD 4 character performs a Dodge on Segment 3, he has +3 DCV until his next Phase, on Segment 6. If, on Segment 4, he needs to do something else, and aborts, it is then his next Phase, as also mentioned.

 

A Dodge is the abstraction of all of the things a character does to avoid being hit. And, in fact, the Phase is the abstraction of all of the things the character does between now and the next time he can act; Phases aren't necessarily discrete blobs of motion, but are considered to be continuing. But for the purposes of the game mechanics, they happen in the Segment when they happen.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

Yes' date=' though I never thought of pushing your DCV. It's an interesting concept, but doesn't something have to cost END to use to be pushed? It seems like quite a rules bend. I might be convinced to allow an acrobatics style DCV bonus in the aborted sector if the player explained what he was doing in a creative way. That bonus would never amount to twice the bonus derived from Dodge or a martial maneuver.[/quote']Hmmmm.... Dodging costs 1 END as a Maneuver that doesn't use STR... I can see Pushing it... but not as a standard tactic, any more than Pushing an attack is a standard tactic. As a standard tactic, I'd go with Combat Skill Levels, only for DCV, Full Phase (as previously mentioned by Hugh).

 

I do see the concept that if Dodging for a Half Phase gives you +X DCV, then Dodging for a Full Phase should give you +2X DCV (or some other plus to DCV). After all, you're giving up a Half Phase (that you could otherwise potentially use for movement, picking up an object, etc.) for the priviledge. Hey, you can Multiple Attack by using a Full Phase; why not an improved Dodge? [One reason could be game balance.] But it's not the rules as written.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Stacking Dodge

 

It might also be worth pointing out: technically there's no such thing as "Phase 3". Instead' date=' the character has a Phase on Segment 3 of the Turn.[/quote']Yah. That "Phase 3" thing strikes me as sloppiness in terms - but keep in mind, I'm an engineer.