6th Edition Brick

[Christopher]

Hello,

 

I have a wierd situation: I have to make a Brick for a 6th Edition game, but I have no Genre Book, never build a character before and the gm for that game has not really the time to guide me through the process.

 

I know the following things:

Standart Level Superhero (400 Pionts/75 Disads) with Equivalent Ability Guindelines (6E1 34/35)

The use of Multiform is disencouraged, due to additional bookkeping for the gm. I think that also aplies to duplication/summoning/followers/ai equipment

 

Things I need to know about a brick in general:

What are the most important Characteristics for a brick (wich ones should be maxed out)?

What are the second most important Characteristics for a brick (wich ones should be at least at half maximum value)?

 

General understanding/balancing:

- Is the Guideline for 20-25 DEF/12-18 rDEF that you have 20-25 normal + 12-18 resistant Defenese of each type, or is this 20-25 normal + resistant DEF, of wich 12-18 Pionts are resistant?

- When I want to add damage reduction/negation, could I just go on and add that power or should I lower the normal defenses acrodingly (i.e. adding 20 AP of Damage Negation, and lower the normal/resistant DEF 20 AP below the maximum?).

 

I think more question are going to come up, but that is it for now. I hope somebody can help me.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

A background concept is probably a better starting point than 'point goals'.

 

With that in mind here links to a couple of 400 point 6e bricks I've built:

Superman (speedster/brick)

Wonder Woman (martial/brick)

 

They are probably outside some of the recommended norms (higher attacks/defenses but lower SPD's) but they might be good as familiar examples of what can be done with the rules.

 

And here's a much simpler (and closer to norm) 5e martial/brick with a lot of non-combat skills who would be fairly easy to update to 6e:

Titanium Chef

[Christopher]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

A background concept is probably a better starting point than 'point goals'.

 

With that in mind here links to a couple of 400 point 6e bricks I've built:

Superman (speedster/brick)

Wonder Woman (martial/brick)

 

They are probably outside some of the recommended norms (higher attacks/defenses but lower SPD's) but they might be good as familiar examples of what can be done with the rules.

 

And here's a much simpler (and closer to norm) 5e martial/brick with a lot of non-combat skills who would be fairly easy to update to 6e:

Titanium Chef

Thanks, but it is not a shortage of examples that's my problem. It is more a missing general understanding of where to spend points, how to balance and what is important for a brick.

That is why I formulated the questions, that is what I need to know.

[Enforcer84]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Well best way would be to ask GM what the campaign limits are.

What is the role you foresee for your brick? Damage soak? Engine of destruction?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Just curious on a few things. If you have no genre books where are your examples of bricks coming from? And if you have plenty of examples of bricks, doesn't looking at their Characteristics and Powers give you at least a rough answer to your question?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Point totals are useless unless you have a goal in mind (I don't consider hitting campaign maximums a goal in and of itself) you need to decide what type of Brick you want to model.

 

In the case of the classic superhero "Brick" the term derives in part from The Thing from the Fantastic Four (he even kind of looks like a pile of bricks ).

And others have noted in the past, the early champions universe has a lot more in common with Marvel comics than DC (Grond/Hulk, Dr. Destroyer/Dr. Doom, etc..).

I believe Thing is probably the closest to being a 'default' of sorts for Bricks. He can go toe-to-toe with just about any other brick in the Marvel U (even the Hulk, though it doesn't mean he always wins). On his team at least, he is the damage soak first, engine of destruction second (I think Human Torch filled that role more). Some other good 'vanilla brick' examples from comics would include Marvel's Hercules and She-Hulk as well but other than having more recognizable names, neither has as many comic appearance as The Thing.

[Tasha]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Generically A brick is:

High Stength (their primary Damage comes from HTH raw strength) (Go Max)

High Defenses (to soak up damage) (Go max for PD/ED, rPD/rED)

High Constitution (To keep from being stunned)

High Stun (keeps you from being Knocked Unconsious)

High Rec (don't go crazy, but this should be on the high end as well)

Low Dex (helps balance all that DEF and Con)

Low SPD (Helps Balance all that Def and Speed)

 

All of this should get you a classic brick. How you get those stats and your power conception are different things.

[Enforcer84]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

For the defenses at least, stuff like Damage Negation and Damage Reduction generally do count towards campaign maximum. so if 25r DEF is the GM's max (which I believe would be 71 active points) then 20 pts of Damage Negation would require you to give up some DEF.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Here's a pic of a 1st edition Champions villain named "Brick".

 

[Pizza Man]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

-- Basic starting Stats for a generic Brick --

60 STR (12D6 Damage. You're gonna want to hit em hard...)

18 DEX (buy Lighting Reflexes if you have the points)

30 CON (You want to take a punch and keep going)

I like a 5 Speed. Good round number

25 PD (20r)

20 ED (20r)

OCV 7+ (don't go lower than 7 on these)

DCV 7+

24+ REC (if they do knock you down, you are getting right back up)

50+ STUN (50 is fine to start)

[Christopher]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Just curious on a few things. If you have no genre books where are your examples of bricks coming from? And if you have plenty of examples of bricks' date=' doesn't looking at their Characteristics and Powers give you at least a rough answer to your question?[/quote']

There a lot Brick/Somethings out there. Often build with different power level, not with the same maxmum values or in older HERO-Versions. And I am not that much into statistics that you would try to get the average/essentials out of that

 

Low SPD (Helps Balance all that Def and Speed)

Thanks. Am I right that you mean movement Speed(the main Movement Method/Power) with "Speed"?

 

For the defenses at least' date=' stuff like Damage Negation and Damage Reduction generally do count towards campaign maximum. so if 25r DEF is the GM's max (which I believe would be 71 active points) then 20 pts of Damage Negation would require you to give up some DEF.[/quote']

Thanks

 

@Pizza: Also Thanks

 

With all those informations I can start working. I will post what comes out of it.

[Pizza Man]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

This is the most basic build I can come up with. The flying Brick.

Brick

60 STR…………50

18 DEX …………..16

30 CON .………..20

13 INT ..……………3

10 EGO

13 PRE….3

7 OC……………..20

7 DCV,…………..20

3 OCMV

3 DCMV

5 SPEED……….30

5 PD….…………..3

5 ED……………….3

24 REC…………20

50 END.…….6

13 BODY.……..3

60 STUN……..20

Total Characteristics 229

 

 

 

Powers

60 20PD/20ED resistant natural armor

45 Flight 30M No END

10 Knock back resistance -10M

5 Night Vision

5 Flash defense

10 Power Defense

135 powers

229 Characteristics

364 total so far, 36 for skills and perks

[Tasha]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

There a lot Brick/Somethings out there. Often build with different power level, not with the same maxmum values or in older HERO-Versions. And I am not that much into statistics that you would try to get the average/essentials out of that

 

 

Thanks. Am I right that you mean movement Speed(the main Movement Method/Power) with "Speed"?

 

 

Thanks

 

@Pizza: Also Thanks

 

With all those informations I can start working. I will post what comes out of it.

 

No I mean the Characteristic Speed (SPD). 4 is what I would recommend here. 5 speed is 10 points you could spend on OCV. (ie get your OCV to 8 or 9 whether by buying OCV or Combat Skill Levels)

BTW DCV is usually low on Bricks too (parts of my brain are still getting used to 6e) I recommend a 6 DCV

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

-- Basic starting Stats for a generic Brick --

60 STR (12D6 Damage. You're gonna want to hit em hard...)

18 DEX (buy Lighting Reflexes if you have the points)

 

At 2 points per, and with the vast majority of Supers taking 20+, consider taking a lower DEX. That 20 DEX guy willmove before 18 or 8 DEX, but taking an 8 provides 20 extra points for other abilities.

 

30 CON (You want to take a punch and keep going)

I like a 5 Speed. Good round number

25 PD (20r)

20 ED (20r)

 

If you want to be the damage soak, max out both PD and ED.

 

OCV 7+ (don't go lower than 7 on these)

DCV 7+

 

What's the campaign norm? If a 7 DCV gets hit on a 14- because OCV's are typically in the 10 range, why not just have a 3 or 4 DCV? You won't get hit that much more often, and now you have more points for other abilities.

 

24+ REC (if they do knock you down, you are getting right back up)

50+ STUN (50 is fine to start)

 

Maybe more STUN, less REC. REC is geat until you get knocked to -11 STUN, or -21 STUN...

 

Alternatively, consider a "keeps on going" power, such as STUN and END AID on a Trigger. If he's KO'd (or KO'd to recover 1/turn, or maybe 1/minute), he gets an immediate boost so he's perhaps back in the fight, or at least getting a recovery sooner. An alternate trick is extra STUN purchased with the limitation "only to enhance speed of recovery". So I have 50 STUN, +30 only to enhance recovery speed. I get knocked down by 75 STUN. I'm KO'd (I'm below my 50 base STUN), but I still recover every phase, instead of once a minute. NOTE: These can become obnoxious in play as the character is very hard to keep down. The Aid Trigger approach tends to work best if the Trigger only resets out of combat (ie this only works once per battle) or if it has charges (so it only works so many times, then he's too battered to continue).

 

Other approaches:

 

- less defenses, but add Damage Reduction - takes more from little attacks, but less from larger ones

- less defenses, but add damage negation - probably takes a bit more damage, but much less volatile damage

 

Both the above often leave a goood chance of taking BOD, so consider Regeneration (APG Regen is very effective).

[Doc Samson]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Please see the attached excerpt on Bricks from Champions 6e.

 

Things I need to know about a brick in general:

What are the most important Characteristics for a brick (wich ones should be maxed out)?

What are the second most important Characteristics for a brick (wich ones should be at least at half maximum value)?

STR and Defenses (usually PD and ED) are the most important stats for a Brick. As defenses are balanced to be roughly half the cost of attacks, max for defenses is usually half the max of an attack. For example, 60 STR and 30 PD /30 ED is a typical build for a 60 AP game. Many Brick builds also max END and STUN.

CON and REC are also important. 30 CON and 15+ REC are typical for a Brick in a 60 AP game.

 

General understanding/balancing:

- Is the Guideline for 20-25 DEF/12-18 rDEF that you have 20-25 normal + 12-18 resistant Defenese of each type, or is this 20-25 normal + resistant DEF, of wich 12-18 Pionts are resistant?

- When I want to add damage reduction/negation, could I just go on and add that power or should I lower the normal defenses acrodingly (i.e. adding 20 AP of Damage Negation, and lower the normal/resistant DEF 20 AP below the maximum?).

In the cited guideline, 20-25 Defenses include resistant values. For example, 25 PD/ 18 Resistant equates to 18 of the 25 points being Resistant.

Damage Reduction and Damage Negation usually count towards the AP totals. For example, 30 PD/ 30 ED and 15 PD/ 15 ED plus 3 DC PD/ 3 DC ED Damage Negation are roughly equivalent.

 

Please let me know if that does not help or if you have more questions.

[Doc Samson]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

What's the campaign norm? If a 7 DCV gets hit on a 14- because OCV's are typically in the 10 range' date=' why not just have a 3 or 4 DCV? You won't get hit that much more often, and now you have more points for other abilities.[/quote']

As usual, Hugh's advice is sage wisdom but I will respectfully disagree with having a DCV that is too much lower than the game norm. IMHO after playing a few Growth Bricks, having a DCV that is too low can result in you being the frequent target of devastating Multiple Attacks or high velocity Move Throughs. The threat of missing with these attacks is usually the deterrent from them being used too frequently.

[Tech]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

As usual' date=' Hugh's advice is sage wisdom but I will respectfully disagree with having a DCV that is too much lower than the game norm. IMHO after playing a few Growth Bricks, having a DCV that is too low can result in you being the frequent target of devastating Multiple Attacks or high velocity Move Throughs. The threat of missing with these attacks is usually the deterrent from them being used too frequently.[/quote']

 

Not to mention Haymaker'd attacks of many different types, Grabs, etc.

[Christopher]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

No I mean the Characteristic Speed (SPD).

Then I don't understand what you meant with that:

 

Low SPD (Helps Balance all that Def and Speed)

Having low SPD to compensate for having high SPD?

 

364 total so far' date=' 36 for skills and perks[/quote']

Thanks. There is of course still a little bit more saving potential with Limitaions like OIAID or similar...

I have to take a look.

 

Edit: Just as reminder, campaing limits are according to the book:

Standart Level Superhero (400 Pionts/75 Disads) with Equivalent Ability/ActivePionts/DEF Guindelines (6E1 34/35)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

As usual' date=' Hugh's advice is sage wisdom but I will respectfully disagree with having a DCV that is too much lower than the game norm. IMHO after playing a few Growth Bricks, having a DCV that is too low can result in you being the frequent target of devastating Multiple Attacks or high velocity Move Throughs. The threat of missing with these attacks is usually the deterrent from them being used too frequently.[/quote']

 

While I agree that's not without risk, I'm OK trying a Multiple Attack against a target with DCV 3 lower than my OCV. I like my odds with two or even three shots (50% - pushing it there). What I don't like is spending triple END for that Multiple Attack, or cutting my own DCV in half to make that Multiple Attack, which makes me just as appealing a target for opponent Multiple Attacks (and unless I'm also a Brick, an even more devestating Multiple Attack!), Move Throughs, etc.

 

High velocity move through, meet high STR Brick with Knockback Resistance who is Bracing to avoid knockback. I used that a couple of time coupled with Growth. As the Stunned attacker slides down your chest, you can Clap for a strike or a grab.

 

Finally, thank you, Mr. GM, for setting the precedent that Multiple Attacks and high velocity move throughs are an accepted part of this game. I get hit all the time anyway, so halving my 4 DCV to 2 in order to Sweep for multiple hits isn't a huge disincentive to me. The Move Through penalty of -5 DCV is a bit more painful, but if I have a high movement speed (that 30 meters Flight for the Flying Brick adds 5d6), I suspect I can do good Knockback and heavy damage myself.

 

Sure, there are OCV penalties. But all those points I saved on DEX and DCV can be invested in HTH Combat Skill Levels. Let's see...I saved 12 points on DEX by having a 12 instead of an 18, and 15 dropping DCV from 7 to 4, so that's 27 points to buy +9 CSL's with Punch, Move Through and Grab. Not only can I hit with multiple attacks, grabs or move throughs - if I really need it, I can raise my DCV pretty high in HTH combat!

 

Not to mention Haymaker'd attacks of many different types' date=' Grabs, etc.[/quote']

 

If a Haymaker is a concern, move a hex away and make it go away. And it imposes a -5 DCV penalty for my, or my teammates', retaliation. Grabs? I'm a Brick, remember? Now, a few points into a Martial Arts package with a Reversal might make me WANT you to Grab me, which also drops your DCV. Having mine halved for grabbing you isn't that big a deal.

 

Obviously, this all depends on the style of game you play.

 

For myself, I don't see a compelling need for everyone to have a DEX at or above the NCM level to be competitive - I don't expect a 25 STR for the guy for whom STR is not "beyond the human norm", so why must DEX hit those heights? DCV is similar - Bricks in the comics tend to absorb, not avoid, attacks from thugs and soldiers.

 

I'm also OK with that Brick who has a really poor DCV, and maybe not a great SPD, having exceptional defenses and high STUN and REC. These will offset the fact he'll be hit more often. I find the trend to everyone having 20 - 25 defenses, 7-9 OCV and DCV, etc. creates a lot of blandness. Allowing exceptionally high abilities in some areas, offset by deficiencies in others, creates considerably more variety in characters.

[Tasha]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Low SPD compensates for the High Defenses (PD and ED, and high CON). A brick should never (or nearly never) get stunned by attacks. Other archetypes when they get hit have a decent chance to being stunned esp if the damage roll was higher than average. Higher SPD for them compensates for this somewhat as they have phases that can be lost.

 

I probably meant to post "Low SPD (Helps Balance all of that Def and Con)"

[dsatow]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Personally, I find that by starting to make a brick which is at the power level the best bet and modifying from there.

 

So if its a 12d6 game, with 25Def half resistant and 8 CVs, make a brick with 60 strength, 25 PD/ED, half resistant with 8 OCV/DCV.

[Pizza Man]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Christopher you can see there is a lot of room for personal preferences. I have you the extreem basics, and already people are improving upon that.

 

I always hated the S--L--O--W brick. The other players move 5 or 6 times, you move just 4. You'll be puilling full moves just to keep up with the team (and less attacking).

 

You've got the rules, play with a few ideas. I always liked the stretchy brick who could inflate his fist and strike with an area attack. Add 20M of stretching and you'll be scarier than the energy projector.

 

Have fun with this, and post the results and how you did with your first actual game test.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Please see the attached excerpt on Bricks from Champions 6e.

 

Which Champions is that from? Champions Powers? Or Champions Universe? Because those templates look very helpful.

[Tasha]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Which Champions is that from? Champions Powers? Or Champions Universe? Because those templates look very helpful.

 

I am pretty sure that came from the Champions Genre Book. Not the things that came after. The Genre books are always chock full of interesting stuff that turns out to be quite useful

[Tasha]

Re: 6th Edition Brick

 

Personally, I find that by starting to make a brick which is at the power level the best bet and modifying from there.

 

So if its a 12d6 game, with 25Def half resistant and 8 CVs, make a brick with 60 strength, 25 PD/ED, half resistant with 8 OCV/DCV.

 

A brick's thing is to get hit and not really get that damaged. 6DCV is plenty for that (and saves 10pts)

 

I always hated the S--L--O--W brick. The other players move 5 or 6 times, you move just 4. You'll be puilling full moves just to keep up with the team (and less attacking).

 

There should be something that balances out the brick's high defenses and near immunity to being stunned. Being slower is a real good way to make the Martial Artist and or Speedster feel better about buying SPD 6 with lower damage than the rest of the party. If the party is averaging spd 5 then it's really not that big of a deal to be one slower. I haven't run/ been in many running battles, so having the brick moving as far as everyone else hasn't been an issue.

--

 

@Christopher

If this is your first Champions character I would recommend that you stick with the basics. A well written up character that fits the campaign power levels can be quite fun to play. Also buying all of those physical stats up to recommended Brick levels is expensive, and you should have more than just powers. Supers games are more than just beating on bad guys. You sometimes need to talk to them or defuse the bomb or other stuff out of combat. Don't slight your collection of Skills when buying your Characteristics and Powers.