Welcoming Women Who Game

[phoenix240]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

On the American front' date=' this is [i']significantly[/i] backed by the general nation-wide (and mostly unspoken) consensus that violence is to be glorified and tolerated, while sex/sexuality is something to be downplayed.

 

True. And I think part of it stems from the belief "If you're talking about it, you're aren't getting it" when it comes to sex. And no one wants to get the dreaded "sexless geek" label. Same thing brings on the shame of viewing pornography too, IME.

[phoenix240]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

You know, stereotypes are a two-way street, and any time a topic comes up (not just on the HERO forums, mind you) on "Female Gamers" (who are somehow automatically more special and interesting than Male Gamers), I see a lot of blame sent just one-way down that same street, with the apparent onus also sent down that way as well...as if they are always to blame and/or must make up for the reprehensible behavior of other males.

 

It's a little tiring, and a little insulting to not only read the hate, but to see everyone okay with the apparent unspoken assumption that Female Gamers can do no wrong (because I rarely hear stories of Female Gamers doing bad things, so either one gender really is "bad", or there isn't enough data on the other that you don't hear much bad about...or the bad takes a different form).

 

Female Gamers are put on a something of a pedestal and I do like to have women in my games (as much as I like having variety among the players). It adds a mix styles and POVs that make things interesting and lively, IMO. But I don't think female gamers are "better". In general, women tend to be more open to socialization and talking solutions, IME but I think that comes from not being traditional sorts that are drawn to gaming more than "gender". It can be a refreshing change of pace. Women gamers aren't perfect. I've run into some with issues social and mental that have lead to problems. And not all that BO smell at Cons is always coming from the male majority frankly.

 

But I am also edging into doing something that I feel is a mistake in threads like this. That's treating women like some kind of Estrogen fueled Hive Mind that will all have the same preferences, needs and expectations instead of intelligent individuals with diverse drives. Even the term "female gamer" is a little cold when you think about it like its a species or a scientific survey. I've generally found the best way to get women interested in just ask them like you would anyone else that you think might like to try out gaming.

[ErikModi]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

On the American front' date=' this is [i']significantly[/i] backed by the general nation-wide (and mostly unspoken) consensus that violence is to be glorified and tolerated, while sex/sexuality is something to be downplayed.

 

This is something that REALLY bothers me. I used to work in a video store, and I can't tell you how many times a parent or grandparent would be in renting their 8-14 year old kid Halo or Call of Duty or somesuch. And, as was required of me by both store policy and state law, I'd ask the adult "are you aware that this is a Mature-rated game, intended for those 18 years or older?" And more often then not, the reply was "Well, it's just shooting and stuff. There's no sex in it."

 

This, to me, is a TOTALLY BACKWARD way of thinking. Look at it this way: Every single person, at some point in their life, will have to come to terms with their view on sex and sexuality. Even if it is to live a celibate life and not be sexually involved at all, they still have to make that decision. By contrast, VERY FEW people, especially in modern America, will have to really come to grips with the potential of taking a human life. And yet everyone seems far, FAR more comfortable with giving us endless ways to explore how to introduce another living human being to his spleen then helping us decide how we really feel about breasts.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

It really is backward, yeah.

[phoenix240]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

This is something that REALLY bothers me. I used to work in a video store, and I can't tell you how many times a parent or grandparent would be in renting their 8-14 year old kid Halo or Call of Duty or somesuch. And, as was required of me by both store policy and state law, I'd ask the adult "are you aware that this is a Mature-rated game, intended for those 18 years or older?" And more often then not, the reply was "Well, it's just shooting and stuff. There's no sex in it."

 

This, to me, is a TOTALLY BACKWARD way of thinking. Look at it this way: Every single person, at some point in their life, will have to come to terms with their view on sex and sexuality. Even if it is to live a celibate life and not be sexually involved at all, they still have to make that decision. By contrast, VERY FEW people, especially in modern America, will have to really come to grips with the potential of taking a human life. And yet everyone seems far, FAR more comfortable with giving us endless ways to explore how to introduce another living human being to his spleen then helping us decide how we really feel about breasts.

 

Especially young people. I'm constantly amazed by the number of people that bring kids as young as 6 to R rated movies and don't worry about the goriest murders, torture and brutality but lunge to cover their eyes at the slightest hint of sex or nudity (even nudes of the same gender as the child).

[ErikModi]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Well, you know, we can't let little Jimmy see a penis. It just might turn him GAY!!!!

[Lucius]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

For the record: The thread I was originally trying to solicit traffic for not only has no females posting in it as of yet, most of the posts are by a relative handful of males.

 

 

This is something that REALLY bothers me. I used to work in a video store, and I can't tell you how many times a parent or grandparent would be in renting their 8-14 year old kid Halo or Call of Duty or somesuch. And, as was required of me by both store policy and state law, I'd ask the adult "are you aware that this is a Mature-rated game, intended for those 18 years or older?" And more often then not, the reply was "Well, it's just shooting and stuff. There's no sex in it."

 

This, to me, is a TOTALLY BACKWARD way of thinking. Look at it this way: Every single person, at some point in their life, will have to come to terms with their view on sex and sexuality. Even if it is to live a celibate life and not be sexually involved at all, they still have to make that decision. By contrast, VERY FEW people, especially in modern America, will have to really come to grips with the potential of taking a human life. And yet everyone seems far, FAR more comfortable with giving us endless ways to explore how to introduce another living human being to his spleen then helping us decide how we really feel about breasts.

 

If we're going to talk sex and violence, let's try to compare concepts that are actually comparable.

 

It's true, the ultimate possible consequence of violence is death. The ultimate possible consequence of sexuality is birth.

 

"How we really feel about breasts" - how we feel about seeing or touching them, or having our own seen or touched, etc. - does not compare to "introducing another living human being to his spleen." In terms of comparing sex and violence, it might be more equivalent to "How I feel about bullying or intimidation" or "How I feel about sports like football or boxing that involve forceful physical contact."

 

"How I feel about having sex (and its variations: coital, oral, anal, etc)" corresponds to "How I feel about fighting - what would I fight for? To defend myself? A family member? A stranger?"

 

And finally, "How do I feel about parenthood? Do I want to be a father/mother and if so when or under what circumstances would I start a family?" corresponds to "How do I feel about risking my life or taking someone else's? What, if anything, is worth dying for or killing for?"

 

 

One thing I suspect we are in agreement on: I don't think our culture as currently constituted does an optimal job of preparing people for dealing with any of these questions, especially the really big ones.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

How do I feel about palindromedaries?

[ErikModi]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Yeah, I was being a little flip, but the basic point is that we focus so much of our "entertainment" energy on violence, and yet so little of it on sex, compared to the roles they play in our actual lives.

 

On a side note, if you haven't seen the documentary "This Film Not Yet Rated," see it. It's a real eye opener. Someone in the movie raises an excellent point, which I shall paraphrase:

 

You take a James Bond movie, and Jimmy blows away two hundred guys in ten minutes, yet there's no blood or even visible wounds. Compare to a movie like The Godfather, where they kill just over a dozen people, but do so in horrific, brutal fashion. The former instance of violence is cleaned and sanitized and firmly in the realm of fantasy, while the latter showcases the horrific consequences of violence. The more mature mind is the one capable of realizing that the former is an unrealistic, "fantasized" portrayal of violence, so it's the FORMER sequence that should receive the more mature rating.

 

PS: I gotta ask. . . what's with the palindromedaries?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Yeah' date=' I was being a little flip, but the basic point is that we focus so much of our "entertainment" energy on violence, and yet so little of it on sex, compared to the roles they play in our actual lives.[/quote']

 

Don't feel like you need to hold back. We are partially in this state due to Quaker roots/upbringing, to the point where those of us that aren't even of a particular way of thinking are suffering from psychological immaturity.

[matthewcelis]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

It's posts like this that make my wife think this stuff is for the birds!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

To be honest, upon further reflection, I'm reasonably comfortable with the response. I'd note that, while there are of course dozens(at least) of female members on the Hero boards, the number of active posters on the gaming discussion sections is smaller, just as is true for the number of active male posters on the gaming discussion sections. If I had to guess, based on threads I've read and thread-starters, I'd say there's about 5-10 or maybe a dozen female members who post and contribute frequently on the gaming threads. IMO, it's a lot of pressure to put on those active posters to expect them to contribute to a thread discussing subject matter which, as Tasha has noted, they may have had a "once bitten, twice shy" experience with. If I may make a more modest request, instead: wait a couple weeks, check back with the thread and scroll/skim through. If you see anything on there which you find interesting or useful or worthy of response, please feel free to do so. I'd like to keep that thread going for quite a while, and make it a bit more well-rounded, over time.

[phoenix240]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

It's posts like this that make my wife think this stuff is for the birds!

 

Which posts in particular?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

It's posts like this that make my wife think this stuff is for the birds!

 

Kind of like non-gamers glimpsing at D&D a few times and thinking it's Satanic?

[Christopher]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

True. And I think part of it stems from the belief "If you're talking about it' date=' you're aren't getting it" when it comes to sex. And no one wants to get the dreaded "sexless geek" label. Same thing brings on the shame of viewing pornography too, IME.[/quote']

Must be an american thing. At least the younger german/european population got sexual education in school (I think it was around 8th grade/13 Years age). Most of them talked about it (in their cliques) before even that (the women perhaps more than the boys; they were more about football, cars or other non-relevant stuff).

 

But even that seems to be too few to give them a propper view. They tend to do the worst thing: Look at ponography for guidance. And rhater the 95% of BS-Pornography*, that has as much to do with healty (sexual) realtionships as tar with a bleaching agent.

 

*I regards that stuff as unviewable. I seriously wonder sometimes how the prono industry managed to make sex look as appealing as a Sigmoidoscopy.

 

Yeah' date=' I was being a little flip, but the basic point is that we focus so much of our "entertainment" energy on violence, and yet so little of it on sex, compared to the roles they play in our actual lives.[/quote']

It's generalyl the point of entertainment. To see stuff you don't see in real life.

 

PS: I gotta ask. . . what's with the palindromedaries?

They just sneak a line in every single of his posts. They don't feel confident enough to post on their own or give more than a single tagline, however

They belong to lucius posts, as his username, avatar picture and join date.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

For the record: The thread I was originally trying to solicit traffic for not only has no females posting in it as of yet' date=' most of the posts are by a relative handful of males.[/quote']

 

If only Kara or Rachel were still with us

 

For the record, I think that thread would be more effective with a slightly different approach...

[Steve]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

If only Kara or Rachel were still with us

 

For the record, I think that thread would be more effective with a slightly different approach...

 

How so?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Also curb the impulse to try to flirt etc. I am there to game with you. I guess what I am saying is to not act on your male impulses. LOL.

 

Yeah, but you play on the other team, so it's probably extra grating

 

I'm a pretty big flirt, but I tend to curb it in certain situations, like gaming. I still flirt a lot when it's actually in character, just not quite so much out of character. Well, unless I perceive some actual chemistry between me and one of the other players.

 

And I've known a few gals that really love the attention they get from your average group of gamer dudes...

[phoenix240]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Yeah, but you play on the other team, so it's probably extra grating

 

I'm a pretty big flirt, but I tend to curb it in certain situations, like gaming. I still flirt a lot when it's actually in character, just not quite so much out of character. Well, unless I perceive some actual chemistry between me and one of the other players.

 

And I've known a few gals that really love the attention they get from your average group of gamer dudes...

 

Queen Bees and GM's Girlfriends...

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

I have observed that the married men in my gaming groups become cruder and ruder in the presence of female gamers. And the married men get all weird when I call them on it in private.

 

Cheers

 

QM

[Bloodstone]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

How so?

 

it`s a very broad topic. people may be completly comfortable with discussing one aspect of it, but not want to slog through several posts discussing something they find inappropriate (or possibly even distasteful).

 

Might go over better as a series of seperate posts that could then be organized as a collection in a single post full of links...

[megaplayboy]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

it`s a very broad topic. people may be completly comfortable with discussing one aspect of it, but not want to slog through several posts discussing something they find inappropriate (or possibly even distasteful).

 

Might go over better as a series of seperate posts that could then be organized as a collection in a single post full of links...

 

Possibly. But you've got potentially dozens of sub-topics--romance, pc-pc dating, pc-npc dating, hero-villain dating, courtship customs of other species and cultures, romantic subplots and complications, erotic subplots and complications, sexual subplots and complications, the use and abuse of Charm/Seduction and complementary skills, romantic/erotic/sexual talents and perks, the new social combat rules and possible further adaptation to flirtation and romantic/erotic interactions, different romantic/erotic genres and tropes, character writeups using romantic/erotic/sexual abilities, Striking Appearance and variants, what does "in love with X" mean in plot/game terms, etc.--and while I'm not opposed to such a sub-division in principle, in practice it seems like a logistical mess. Plus, for that to be worthwhile, we'd need actual feedback on what actual subject matter parties would be interested in not only reading about, but participating in discussion of. As I've mentioned before, I'm open to suggestions, PMs, etc.--but I haven't heard from anyone yet. Feel free to start such threads and post a link in the ESSE/UEH thread. I will continue to mainly post there, and I plan to organize the information eventually into an unofficial set of rules/guidelines, with proper credit given to all participants and contributors, and post it at the beginning and end of that thread.

 

Thanks for your suggestion.

[Lucius]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Crossposted, as an example of what you're missing.

 

Now that I think about it' date=' I don't think I've ever seen in fiction or gaming a singles bar that was an inter-species pickup place in theme. [/quote']

 

I have.

 

Harlan Ellison had a short story in which Earth had apparently become a regular stop on interstellar sex tours. Humans were popular, but Humans who catered to the aliens were regarded by other Humans as beneath contempt; also as being motivated purely for the money, as the aliens paid well. One character who had cheerfully pimped goats was utterly disgusted at the idea. This may have had something to do with the fact that aliens where nowhere near Human; I think it was stated "each one was different" as if there were so many species that each given tourist came from a different planet, and none of them resembled anything found living in nature on Earth. Each experience was a one night stand; no two individual beings would ever come together again. The aliens don't seem to care who they mate with; male, female, pretty, ugly, they just want a Human of some description. And not someone they've had before. Exactly what it is creatures so utterly different might DO with their Earthborn prostitutes is a subject of much curiosity, but the latter refuse to talk about it. There's some ongoing trade in goods and technology, but no one from Earth has ever gone offplanet and apparently little is known about the extraterrestrials.

 

The protagonist becomes such a prostitute, and learns the secret that they all know, but never speak of with one another, let alone with any other Human. They literally don't know the details of what happens - although it's implied to be disgusting or horrifying - because from the moment physical contact is made, their consciusness is not there. They vividly experience visions of other worlds - the only taste Humans ever get of what the rest of the universe is like. The experience is so beautiful, and so ecstatic, that everything else pales in comparison. Those who experience it once feel compelled to seek it out again and again, and would do so regardless of being paid, and despite the contempt and ostracism of the entire rest of their species.

 

It was a bizarre little story, and a very original take on possible consequences of intimacy with something that is profoundly Other.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

But please do not make indecent proposals to the palindromedary

[Tasha]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Yeah, but you play on the other team, so it's probably extra grating

 

I'm a pretty big flirt, but I tend to curb it in certain situations, like gaming. I still flirt a lot when it's actually in character, just not quite so much out of character. Well, unless I perceive some actual chemistry between me and one of the other players.

 

And I've known a few gals that really love the attention they get from your average group of gamer dudes...

 

Most other women gamers that I have met IRL and online just want to game. They don't want to be flirted with OOC and find the drooling geek guy(s) just tiresome. Also the condescending 'helpful' guy that tries to play your character for you (because a woman can't possibly know the rules). I do find that most women are more willing and do like games that feature relationships with the NPC's. Those games just engage us better than games that are just about combat. Unfortunatly most guys either can't or won't run those games or when they do they skip the relationship parts and skip to the boring sex part.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Unfortunatly most guys either can't or won't run those games or when they do they skip the relationship parts and skip to the boring sex part.

 

Is this gaming or real life?

[ErikModi]

Re: Welcoming Women Who Game

 

Most other women gamers that I have met IRL and online just want to game. They don't want to be flirted with OOC and find the drooling geek guy(s) just tiresome. Also the condescending 'helpful' guy that tries to play your character for you (because a woman can't possibly know the rules). I do find that most women are more willing and do like games that feature relationships with the NPC's. Those games just engage us better than games that are just about combat. Unfortunatly most guys either can't or won't run those games or when they do they skip the relationship parts and skip to the boring sex part.

 

It seems to me that this is EXACTLY the kind of insight the thread in question needs. How many of these male gamers skip the "relationship" parts of stories because they simply have no idea how to run one? Essays on that sort of thing could be insanely useful to GMs and players who want to incorporate that sort of thing into their campaigns, but aren't sure how.