Why is Speed so unpopular?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I contrast "Anything above SPD 4 is superhuman" with the SPD levels of published characters, where an average Super tends to a 5, and 6 is fairly common. [by the book, I think anything above 20/4 SPD is legendary, but humanly possible, with the cap being 30, & 6 SPD, before we're into Superhuman, higher for mental stats.]

 

If we want to impose a Superhuman limit, I think it's pretty easy to do - drop SPD 2 points across the board. That leaves the slowest Supers with a SPD 2, matching a normal. Typical Supers drop to a 3, above average humans. With 6 falling to a 4, we have those pinnacles of human achievement. 5 and higher then becomes the province of the really impressive martial artists, and speedsters.

 

But that ship sailed with the sample characters in 1e, and it would be a major hit to reverse compatibility (we'd have to subtract 2 from all previously published Speeds, and we all know Hero is already too math-heavy! ), so I can't see it ever getting implemented. We could similarly drop CV's across the board. Drop everyone's OCV and DCV by 3 (DEX by 8 - 10 pre-6e) and they'd still hit each other just as often.

 

Mooks would be better able to dodge heroes, hit them and move more frequently compared to them. But Supers would have more points to spend on their areas of expertise, freeing up all that SPD, CV (END?) etc. investment.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

If you go back to 4th edition and look, you will see that the characters of that era were not built to any unified standard. They varied in power level and benchmarks from sourcebook to sourcebook. There was no editorial mandated standard of character creation that would guarantee character compatibility with the assumed baseline of character creation at that time in Champions.

 

So the arguement of reverse compatibility in character creation has absolutely no foundation.

 

Going back to the benchmarks set by the Normal Characteristics Maxima helps establish a reasonable standard scale in which to base characters upon.

 

And yes, I contest the benchmark chart in the rulebook. Because it defies the established foundation of logic in the system itself. And I have little patience for powermongering.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

The argument that HERO Speed makes things too predictable are ludicrious, especially when compared to other systems that use intiative. It is far less so than those systems.

 

In HERO there are tons of actions and circumstances that can alter the order in which actions are taken and aren't much of a hassle, whereas the same can't be said of those systems (d20 etc).

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

About the only problem I see with this idea' date=' is the way the system deals with changes to your Speed. From what I recall, if you do anything that changes your speed (short of lowering it) you can't act again until you have a phase, from both Speeds, that you would be able to go on. Then you can start acting on your new phase[/quote']

That is when your SPD changes in the middle of a turn. You can set your SPD however you want without penalty - but only somewhere around the post segment 12 Recovery.

Wouldn't be too hard to make SPD with 1 Turn Time Limit and Activation Roll, so the SPD would still be fixed for an entire turn (baring anyone with a SPD Drain....).

 

Anything above SPD 4 is superhuman.

 

I disagree violently with people who try to say Bruce Lee was superhuman. When he was not. He was near the pinnacle of human achievement. But he was still just a regular human being.

 

People seem to also forget one of the fundamental issues regarding weightlifters. By the definitions of the game itself, a weightlifter is pushing when they attempt to lift such extreme amounts of weight. So there is actually no excuse for rating them beyond STR 20. Except in some rare exceptional cases.

 

For this reason, I also believe that the ability benchmarks chart in the rulebook is broken.

I disagree with both parts of this:

- Characteristics maxima are everything but maximum values (one of those miss-nomers). There are the "cost efficiency" threshold. Nothing in the RAW prevents a Heroic character from buying 30 STR or 5 SPD.

- Pushing is not allowed for NPC's, and even if it's allowed only in "situatios of life and death". Also the only problem I see with 30 STR is the to high lifting capacity. This can be solved by using the alternate STR chart in the APG I.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

If you go back to 4th edition and look, you will see that the characters of that era were not built to any unified standard. They varied in power level and benchmarks from sourcebook to sourcebook. There was no editorial mandated standard of character creation that would guarantee character compatibility with the assumed baseline of character creation at that time in Champions.

 

So the arguement of reverse compatibility in character creation has absolutely no foundation.

 

Other than the fact that this is the primary reason why Supers in 6e still center around DEX 23 (despite it having no CV implications any more) and SPD 5 to minimize the impact on historical products...

 

Going back to the benchmarks set by the Normal Characteristics Maxima helps establish a reasonable standard scale in which to base characters upon.

 

And yes, I contest the benchmark chart in the rulebook. Because it defies the established foundation of logic in the system itself. And I have little patience for powermongering.

 

The benchmark in the rulebook can just as easily be used as a standard scale on which to base characters. Its use in that regard would suggest, at least to me, that CU DEX and SPD values are excessive, and only Supers for whom high DEX or SPD is a schtick should be much above the NCM range. Just as Supers for whom high STR is not a schtick don't tend to have STR higher than the 20 NCM, and characters legendary for their STR (like Hercules) are generally full-on Bricks when written up for a Supers game.

 

You could also use a standard that anything above a 20 is clearly superior to Human, of course. But if that means that non-superhumans just aren't viable characters, then we won't see a lot of non-Superhumans in the game.

[Vondy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Still' date=' I consider it much less obnoxious and unfair than initiative systems where high initiative means "I act lots 'n' lots of times before you get to do anything at all."[/quote']

 

That is "less unfair" than such systems does change the fact that the "face time" problem exists when there is a large disparity in speeds.

 

In other words, who cares? We aren't talking about those systems. We're talking about Hero.

[Vondy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Overthinking it. This from me...

 

If you don't like SPD make all your heroes and major villains SPD 4. Middling characters are SPD 3. Thugs and such. Normals are SPD 2.

 

I do... and it works.

[Cancer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

My biggest issue with the SPD mechanic is one others have mentioned here: the increment of SPD is much too large at the low end -- and most of my HERO System gaming has been at the low end -- so that SPD differences at the "normal human" level overshadow more or less any other differences between characters of differing SPD. The difference between SPD 2 and SPD 3 is enormous, much larger than the difference between 6 and 7. The low end is where I'd like more granularity to the system.

[randian]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

That is "less unfair" than such systems does change the fact that the "face time" problem exists when there is a large disparity in speeds.

Why is "face time" a problem? Players need to keep their ego in check, not whine about "face time".

 

As it happens, I love bricks. I'm not wasting all those extra phases I might have had on defensive actions, and I know that when I act something is going to happen. When I play martial artists they're typically light on attacks and defenses to afford the extra CV and SPD. More often than not my extra SPD is just being spent on aborting, and I'm not doing much damage to the bad guys. Anybody who's complaining about the "face time" I'm allegedly getting needs to spend more time looking at what's actually happening in the field of battle.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Abuse of SPD causes characters who legitimately should be superhuman, as dictated by their concept, to be penalized for the sake of powergaming. They are made to be less special, simply to accomodate someone's sense of competitiveness. Rather than any real legitimate reason.

 

I don't believe powergaming to be acceptable in the least. In character design, I believe the character concept is the prime guide in which a character sheet is constructed.

 

Yes, I may seem strict here. But I thoroughly believe that is someone's concept doesn't justify them having something, they shouldn't have it. Period.

[Greywind]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Technically, by definition, playing superheroes is POWER gaming.

[randian]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Technically' date=' by definition, playing superheroes is POWER gaming.[/quote']

Also, I see quite a few people conflate "abusive" with "high power".

[lemming]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Also' date=' I see quite a few people conflate "abusive" with "high power".[/quote']

 

Very true. You can run a game with speeds in the high end and dice thundering across the table, you just have to have everyone in the same range. Or at least in the same range for the story. One of my favorite campaigns of Sam's was a space game where we did have the likes of Superboy & Duplicate Lass running about.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Technically' date=' by definition, playing superheroes is POWER gaming.[/quote']

 

Powergaming refers to a style of negative player behaviour that is commonly known in the gaming community. And definitely well known in the Hero System community. It describes the behaviour of those who are out to exploit the game system, the campaign, and the trust of the GM. Rather than actually making a legitimate character at all.

 

They are also one of the big reasons I have spent enough money on Rolaids, that I should be a stockholder in the company that makes that product.

 

The superheroic power level is a benchmark. A campaign style. Not an excuse to abuse.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Very true. You can run a game with speeds in the high end and dice thundering across the table' date=' you just have to have everyone in the same range. Or at least in the same range for the story. One of my favorite campaigns of Sam's was a space game where we did have the likes of Superboy & Duplicate Lass running about.[/quote']

 

Regulation of SPD is part of the overall picture. It helps the game run smoothly. That's really the entire purpose of doing so.

 

My preference is to keep SPD scores low and manageable. It frees up character points for players to further flesh out their characters in other directions. It helps give the characters a little more depth.

[Greywind]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

If you're stressing over a hobby, you either need to change your dance partners or just take a break in general.

 

I'm fully aware of the connotations of power gaming. Considering, even on these forums, people can post up characters and some will say "Cool! Neat build!" and others will say "I'd never allow that!", apparently "abusive" is in the eyes of a person that doesn't want to have to deal with such a character.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

If you're stressing over a hobby' date=' you either need to change your dance partners or just take a break in general.[/quote']

 

Currently not stressing over the hobby. I just have a history of dealing with the hobby's pitfalls. Especially when it comes to the Hero System and Champions in particular. I'm experienced enough to know that a system like the Hero System needs a firm hand to guide its use. And without that firm hand, well the consequences to the campaign being played and to the GM's stress levels can be quite serious. I've delt with that.

 

Back when I was running a campaign seriously, when I was early in my experience as a GM, I had to deal with a player who would derail and delay an entire game session for the entire game group just to discuss hi8s latest exploit of the system, and to try and get a ruling from the GM at hand on it. Even though it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the campaign being played. The player was such a behaviour problem that he rarely lasted a month in any game group in which he played. It was clear that he didn't really care about the campaign at all, or the fun of anyone else. He was a selfish jerk.

 

I game to have fun. I don't game to deal with behaviour problems.

[Greywind]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Fastest, easiest way I ever dealt with the issue was I told the players "I don't care what you build, or how you build it. Just keep in mind that whatever you do, at some point in time, you will have to deal with it from the other side. So if you and your team can't handle what you have in mind, don't build it."

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It sounds like you are linking one player's bad behavior to a particular system. No linkage may exist. The player in question is just as likely to exhibit similar behavior with any other system of choice (if he had never encountered HERO).

[lemming]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Regulation of SPD is part of the overall picture. It helps the game run smoothly. That's really the entire purpose of doing so.

 

My preference is to keep SPD scores low and manageable. It frees up character points for players to further flesh out their characters in other directions. It helps give the characters a little more depth.

 

And you seem to stress out too much over numbers instead of going with the story which I point out is the important part.

 

You got scarred by some players long ago since I remember quite well you've had this rant for a long time. (You were on the champ-l email list weren't you?)

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Yes, I was on that list.

 

I have since learned to appreciate the need for simplicity.

 

Controlling SPD simplifies combat dramatically.

[Vondy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Regulation of SPD is part of the overall picture.

 

This is true of Hero as a system. Very few things in it are broken. Almost everything in it requires... regulation.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've never understood the argument that "SPD is predictable". Nearly all other games are round-based' date=' so characters have exactly the same number of actions as every other, and since initiative is normally done once per combat (redoing it once per round, for example, would be murderous on the speed of your combats) everything is perfectly predictable. If anything, constraining SPD as some advocate would seem to reduce Hero to D&D. Everybody SPD 4? How's that different than round-based combat? If Hero deserves demerits for "predictability", then all games do.[/quote']

 

The reason for this perception of predictability is as others have pointed out, because of the lack of random initiative in HERO. All characters act with the same SPD and DEX all the time, unless they abort, hold or act on a lower Dex or SPD (fat chance of that!). Experienced Hero players can easily work out an opponents SPD score by counting which phases they act upon and plan their offensive and defensive tactics around that knowledge. That is harder to do in a system that relies or more randomized initiative.

 

In game systems with random initiative, there is always an element of doubt. Sure in most, the fast guys usually go first and the slower usually go last, but there is that element of chance where the fast guy can roll poorly and the slow guy can roll well and reverse the order. That situation would never appear in a standard HERO game unless the faster guy purposefully waited to act after the slowest character has gone. When the player with the slowest character rolls the highest initiative during a turn, that makes that player's day.

 

Indeed, I find the use of the word "predictable" in this context odd. Generally, it is the result of a character's action (hit or miss, damage total) that is random. Though I am sure such an RPG exists, I've never seen one which attempted to randomize character abilities. "For this combat, you have d3+2 SPD". "You have 9+1d6m Running". "Instead of 50 STR, you have 40+1d20 STR (maybe the villians attacked when you were sick)". I'm not convinced of the merits of "unpredictability".

 

It's actually not that odd. I've played in game systems where initiative could be "botched" or "fumbled" in which case, the character did not get to act that turn. It was a rare occurrence that normally only affected NPC's, but I've seen it hit PC's a couple of times. It simulates sort of being confused or blindsided and not knowing exactly what to do that turn.

 

Using something like this in HERO wouldn't be at all difficult to implement. Every Post-Segment 12, everyone would roll "initiative" for the turn, which randomly determines their SPD score for that 12 second Turn. I would base the roll on established HERO mechanics, such as making a DEX roll and on a successful roll, the character acts at normal Speed, on a critical success, they act at +1 Speed. However, if they fail their Dex roll, they act at -1 Speed. With a Dex of 10, there is a 62% chance of success, so most times, the character would act at their normal Speed. Variations on this could exist, based on a variety of characteristics, or none at all. (to avoid characteristic inflation)

 

I have never randomized Speed, but I have randomized initiative within characters action phase. I have made an "Initiative Value" secondary characteristic based on DEX and INT (calculated similar to OCV in 5th and earlier editions) and added to a 1D6 roll to determine order of action in a particular segment. It worked out quite well actually, and I may implement it again in the future.

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

My biggest issue with the SPD mechanic is one others have mentioned here: the increment of SPD is much too large at the low end -- and most of my HERO System gaming has been at the low end -- so that SPD differences at the "normal human" level overshadow more or less any other differences between characters of differing SPD. The difference between SPD 2 and SPD 3 is enormous' date=' much larger than the difference between 6 and 7. The low end is where I'd like more granularity to the system.[/quote']

Yes, the hero system in general lacks granularity in the lower scores/skills. Despite being a Universal game system, the need to accomodate Superheroes will always mean that it either lacks granularity or that supeheroes will need a lot more dices.

The only way aroudn this would be a scale system, like in Star Wars D6 (where 4d6 can be the damage roll for a handblaster or the main laser of the deathstar), but a systems needs to be desinged for that.

 

Why is "face time" a problem? Players need to keep their ego in check, not whine about "face time".

 

As it happens, I love bricks. I'm not wasting all those extra phases I might have had on defensive actions, and I know that when I act something is going to happen.

That actually the point in having more SPD. Sure you can act more often, but you also loose Phases more often (to PRE attacks, being Stunned, being K.O. or just defending yourself).

 

I don't believe powergaming to be acceptable in the least. In character design, I believe the character concept is the prime guide in which a character sheet is constructed.

 

Yes, I may seem strict here. But I thoroughly believe that is someone's concept doesn't justify them having something, they shouldn't have it. Period.

That would perhaps lead to someone changing his concept to accomodate his design.

 

Fastest' date=' easiest way I ever dealt with the issue was I told the players "I don't care what you build, or how you build it. Just keep in mind that whatever you do, at some point in time, you will have to deal with it from the other side. So if you and your team can't handle what you have in mind, don't build it."[/quote']

That what I think too, but the other way around: Unless it's the McGuffin, never allow a NPC to have something you wouldn't allow for the players.

 

The reason for this perception of predictability is as others have pointed out' date=' because of the lack of random initiative in HERO. All characters act with the same SPD and DEX all the time, unless they abort, hold or act on a lower Dex or SPD (fat chance of that!). Experienced Hero players can easily work out an opponents SPD score by counting which phases they act upon and plan their offensive and defensive tactics around that knowledge. That is harder to do in a system that relies or more randomized initiative. [/quote']

Personally I don't see a problem with players knowing the SPD of the enemy, if someone is stunned/flashed or K.O., wich SFX what attack has, wich parts of his equipment are Focus and wich not, ...

When you are the GM you know all that stuff yourself. They still should need to suffer an attack before knowign the enemy has it, but otherwise I think "disclosure" helps the players knowign what to do. Comicbook characters always seem to know if a specific attack will hurt them or not and if something is a focus or not.

 

In game systems with random initiative' date=' there is always an element of doubt. Sure in most, the fast guys [i']usually[/i] go first and the slower usually go last, but there is that element of chance where the fast guy can roll poorly and the slow guy can roll well and reverse the order.

APG I 158 has some optional Speed Systems, including "Rolled Speeds" and "Variable Speed".

[Martin2]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

As mentioned by others SPD is an important tool in HERO and it can be controlled to make it run smoother.

 

I had a problem with players complaining that they were not getting enough "Face time". This was because I have PC's on SPD 4 and 5 and a SPD 4 player was complaining. So that was simply controlled by allowing him to up his SPD to 5 with the right EXP or character tweek (the same player was also complaining that the speed 6 super villain was acting to many times as well but thats not going to change )

 

GM's have full control over the game they run so I think it is best to keep the speeds all relative to the players by keeping all the players and villains at the same SPD if they want.

 

"Speedsters" don't have to have a much higher SPD then your average hero (I don't have one so is not a problem for my game). They can just have other powers to simulate the ability to do things faster (high movement m, AOE / autofire attacks to simulate hiting lots of people in a short time, skill levels / powers to reduce time effected events to simulate doing things faster etc).

 

So players who want "high speed" do not have to have a high SPD to keep the game balanced.