Why is Speed so unpopular?

[Greywind]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

"Maximum human potential" =/= peak human. The maximum human potential is beyond the current peak human.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

1/4 less powerful' date=' in Hero at least, should generally mean 1/4 more character points to spend on other stuff. Does NormalGuy have a -1/4 limitation on all his stuff, or is he just more expensive/less effective, relative to the other PCs? If I deliberately build my character to be less combat effective than everyone else, it's because I have an expectation that my shortcomings will be made up elsewhere. If my character is forced to be less combat effective than everyone else due to the way the game world works, I still have an expectation that my shortcomings will be made up elsewhere.[/quote']

 

Exactly. Part of the problem historically is that buying equivalent combat skill through levels rather than DEX was much more expensive. Getting the same (or weaker) mechanical results for a higher cost is, to me, a flaw in the costing mechanism.

 

If the result is that the "non-Super maxima" are high enough that the character can still shine in the niche the player envisions, and be competitive overall, all's well (as noted, if Supers typically have a SPD of 2 - 3, DEX 11 - 15 and CV's of 4 - 6, then a 4 SPD, DEX 20, CV 7 highly trained human shines in those areas). If the cap is so low they cannot compete (ie the typical Super has SPD 5-6, DEX 23+ and CV's of 8-10, but your character, supposedly a highly trained expert in combat, is capped at SPD 4, DEX 20 and 7 CV), then he is deficient in his supposed area of expertise, rather than shining in his niche.

 

The point I was trying to get across is Batman / Captain America / Dare Devil are Icons on the "perfect" human with "no" super powers.

 

But they can do a shed load of things that super powered individuals can do (and also the stunt doubles in the films require wire work and camera tricks / CGI to reach the level expected and to stop injury).

 

It all Hero games specific.

 

Batman 1 clone in Campaign 1 will have speed 4 because the player / GM thinks that is the maximum human possible and so depicts the Batman they love.

 

Assuming the game allows Batman to perform as the player/GM expect - that is, be a competent character who often impresses his superpowered teammates - this works fine. If everyone else has superior abilities, so Bats feels like the comic relief sidekick, then this doesn't work fine and the "skilled normal human' becomes an archetype no one wants to play.

 

Batman 2 clone in Campaign 2 will have speed 7 because the player / GM thinks that is the maximum in relation to the Batman they love (but infact the maximum for humans with no super powers is well below 7 in this campaign).

 

I question your parenthetical statement. If Batman is a non-powered human, and Batman has speed 7, then the maximum for non-powered humans is not below 7 - we have a non-powered human with a 7. Maybe non-powered humans with SPD 7 (or even SPD above 3) is exceedingly rare. Maybe Bats is the only non-powered human in the whole campaign with a 7 SPD. But he is a non-powered human with a 7 SPD, establishing that the maximum SPD for a non-powered human cannot be less than 7.

 

If we got a poll of 10 Champions games that have a Batman clone and if you take Batmans Speed and the actual human "maximum" speed from the GM I think you may get a good proportion as being a lot higher than the human maximum.

 

How many would suggest that Batman is something other than a non-powered human? If he is a non-powered human then, by definition, his SPD does not exceed the maximum for a non-powered human. I suspect the range of speeds would be vast. However, I suspect that, if the answer were phrased as "campaign mean + x", as someone suggested above (casual player, I think) the values for x would be a lot more consistent. And the Batman player will not be happy (and rightly so) if "mean + x" exceeds "maximum for non-powered human" in any given campaign.

 

Might there be non-powered humans with higher SPD? Well, Nightwing has been described as being quicker and more agile than Bats. Maybe that only comes across in the form of DEX, but some might give him 1 SPD over Bats. That will be even more problematic if normal human speed caps out at 4. In a game where Supers don't exceed 4 SPD (or only those with SuperSpeed/SuperFast Reaction Times type schticks do), Bats and Nightwing probably have to have 4 SPD by virtue of the fact limited options exist.

 

To CasualPlayer: I agree limited Speeds can work. It's a function of the level of limitation (eg. "can never move" is more limiting than "can sometimes move" or "can always move") and common understanding between GM and player (eg. can Bats throw an exploding Batarang at the ground near the Joker, even though it will also affect three thugs he has not studied; if Bats uses his extra phase to Dodge Two Face's shotgun, does he get the Dodge and DCV bonuses against his gang's handguns, how much study is needed, etc.). The player and GM can presumably come to a common consensus - the answers to this type of question, for me, would need to be evaluated up front, first so we have smooth gameplay, but also so we can reasonably price the limitation.

 

But, if we say "maximum Speed is 4" and then allow limited speed to override this for pretty much every character that maximum applies to, it ceases to be much of a maximum, doesn't it? It seems like you're pretty liberal allowing the SPD limit to be exceeded for specific purposes so that the characters are not nerfed by this cap, which is all it really takes to make the characters viable again. Can Bats similarly buy limited DEX, only vs foes he has studied (or limited in some other manner) to avoid the pre-6e CV cost issue?

[Tom Carman]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Actually, Cap has claimed to "see faster" than normal, which is one of the things that allows him to doge bullets and such with greater ease.

 

How one interprets that statement is open to debate and probably not entirely relevant to the thread at hand...

 

The latest movie makes a plot point of suggesting that Cap's brain may be as "peak human" as his body. His memory may/may not be eidetic, but he could reproduce a map of enemy installations that he just glanced at in passing ("Of course I can't guarantee that I recall every pin on that map, but..."). And in the current-day epilog sequence, he penetrated the deception by precisely identifying the "ballgame being broadcast on the radio" as one he attended before his "upgrade" (if I recall correctly).

[sinanju]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

The latest movie makes a plot point of suggesting that Cap's brain may be as "peak human" as his body. His memory may/may not be eidetic' date=' but he could reproduce a map of enemy installations that he just glanced at in passing ("Of course I can't guarantee that I recall every pin on that map, but..."). And in the current-day epilog sequence, he penetrated the deception by precisely identifying the "ballgame being broadcast on the radio" as one he attended before his "upgrade" (if I recall correctly).[/quote']

 

I don't think that really qualifies as superhuman (or "peak human") mental ability. If he was a real fan of baseball--and many, many men were back then--he might simply remember that game because he was paying attention.

 

I don't follow pro sports, but if I were hypothetically placed into a fake "current" environment in which any number of movies I've seen were being presented as only just released, I'd know better. Not because I have a superb memory, but because I _know_ when a lot of those movies were released, and that it was not yesterday.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

But they DO need to purchase Transdimensional, as well as various perception powers so that they can perceive at Speed Zone speeds.

 

 

 

This is also reiterated on p258 - under Ancillary Abilities.

 

Curse you for making me have to find another book to prop up the corner of that crooked table of mine and then relive the horror of TUS.

 

By the strict letter of the rules' date=' a character who wants to do these things should buy Transdimensional for any attack or effect he wants to use against the normal-speed world. However the cost of doing so, on top of the cost of Speed Zone Extra-Dimensional Movement, would become prohibitive, so as a shortcut the rules presented here simply require the character to buy Superspeed Touch and extend its effects to all attacks.[/quote']

 

So if I buy Superspeed Touch (Transdimensional on my STR) I get to use every single ability I define as a touch-based ability as if it had Transdimensional also? Oh hell no. Not at my table. Pure, unalloyed handwavium.

[Ice9]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It's handwavium, true, but it's sort of balanced by the opposite-direction handwavium in the "Enter the Speed Zone" pricing. Normally, dimensions don't have a variable (very high) cost to enter, and definitely don't require END to stay in.

... which itself could be said to be balancing the handwavium of even having the speed zone as a dimension.

 

The whole thing is largely an entirely new power with new pricing masquerading as XDM.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I feel kinda vindicated about normals and speed. I've mentioned before (on another thread at least) that police and gangers and such shouldn't be bumped up to speed three necessarily. I think that their faster reaction could just be a higher DEX than normal. I'm looking over Robot Warriors, a very old self-contained hero game and they have for competent normal sample for characters such as police and gangers at speed two. I always felt that if speed 2 was used more often for these npcs, then the heros by comparision would be at least 1 speed lower. Btw, I use SPD 2 in my games.

[Greywind]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

So you feel that the heroes should be speed 1. 1 being 1 speed lower than the NPCs.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

So you feel that the heroes should be speed 1. 1 being 1 speed lower than the NPCs.

 

No. He feels that if gangers and cops were rated at Speed 2, instead of Speed 3, then players making Heroic characters would be happy with Speed 3 seeing that as better than the average cop. I agree with that assessment to some degree. But an experienced cop who regularly sees at least some action I think would be Speed 3 in his prime. Same with combat oriented troops like Army Infantry or Marines.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

The way I see it, Speed 2 is typical for your average "unblooded" character--someone who hasn't seen much, if any, real life-or-death combat. Such a person is quite capable of acting quickly and decisively in areas they're familiar with, such as sports or video games, but when non-virtual bullets start flying, they're going to hesitate.

 

Speed 3 (again, in my personal view) would represent a veteran soldier, cop, or such who has seen real action and come to terms with it (probably also has specific combat training). I don't think it's much of a stretch to say that someone who's USED to combat could be 50% more effective than someone who's still struggling with the idea that "this is really happening." I would consider Speed 3 to be the minimum value for a superhero, unless slowness or being new to combat is part of the character concept.

 

I see Speed 4 as being notably fast. It's worth pointing out that Speed 4 is Normal Characteristic Maximum for Speed. I wouldn't expect to see Speed 4 in a realistic campaign outside of special forces and elite SWAT teams (and player characters!). I'd say that Speed 4 is the appropriate speed for most supers.

 

Speed 5 is past the Normal Maximum, so very few people should have this speed. In a realistic campaign, such a person would be the fastest person a special forces type knows about. If they enter the public eye, they'll become legendary in the discussion of quickness. People like Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan belong here, and of course, many superheroes will also be this fast, especially if speed/grace/dexterity is part of their schtick.

 

Speed 6 is, if I recall correctly, the hard limit for "normal" humans: it is literally as fast as a non-superpowered human can get. Bruce Lee's and Jackie Chan's CHARACTERS have Speed at this level.

 

If I were running a "realistic" or fantasy game, I'd like to see Speeds ranging from 2 to 4 with maybe a 5 for the fastest player. If I were running a supers game, I'd expect to see speeds from 3 to 6, and I'd question a speed over 6 unless the character was a speedster or such.

 

Realistically, I can't imagine a player being happy with a Speed of 2. The PCs are supposed to be above average, after all.

[phoenix240]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I feel kinda vindicated about normals and speed. I've mentioned before (on another thread at least) that police and gangers and such shouldn't be bumped up to speed three necessarily. I think that their faster reaction could just be a higher DEX than normal. I'm looking over Robot Warriors' date=' a very old self-contained hero game and they have for competent normal sample for characters such as police and gangers at speed two. I always felt that if speed 2 was used more often for these npcs, then the heros by comparision would be at least 1 speed lower. Btw, I use SPD 2 in my games.[/quote']

 

Most Normals are Speed 2 in my games. Truly exceptional, combat oriented folks get bumped up to Speed 3 and "Rambo/John Maclane Action heroes might get up to 4 if its part of their general schtick.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

If you peg your game to these benchmarks it also makes it a lot easier to port characters in from other game worlds and genres, so Conan can team up with Captain America and such.

[Mister E]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

If you peg your game to these benchmarks it also makes it a lot easier to port characters in from other game worlds and genres' date=' so Conan can team up with Captain America and such.[/quote']

 

Conan & Cap on the same team? That's impossible.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

So you feel that the heroes should be speed 1. 1 being 1 speed lower than the NPCs.

 

Wow, I read what I wrote and it didn't come out the way I was thinking. What I meant was, if you saw typical speed for peaple like police and make that for goon agents for VIPER, then I think that we would have seen published hero characters at a 1 less speed than they are now. So if the character is now speed 6 then maybe they would have been speed 5. (Hope that makes more sense )

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Most normals should be SPD 1 IMO. The base 'normal' template vastly overestimates the average citizen in a crisis. I would peg all their primary characteristics at 5, as well as Body, reduce SPD to 1, OCV to zero and DCV to 1.

 

That gives you more room to move up and still be exceptional. A 'base character template' is then significantly better than a normal (at present they are almost identical, but a base character template has to spend less to get better).

[Greywind]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

So everyone that isn't a PC or fairly important NPC should be a small child?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Most normals should be SPD 1 IMO. The base 'normal' template vastly overestimates the average citizen in a crisis. I would peg all their primary characteristics at 5, as well as Body, reduce SPD to 1, OCV to zero and DCV to 1.

 

That gives you more room to move up and still be exceptional. A 'base character template' is then significantly better than a normal (at present they are almost identical, but a base character template has to spend less to get better).

 

So everyone that isn't a PC or fairly important NPC should be a small child?

 

The problem is limited range. If we establish that an average person has primary stats of 8, and SPD 2, and that the peak human has primary stats of 20 and SPD 4, there are only a very few options in that range to reflect gradations. If we decide that anyone with any combat experience has a 3 SPD, then everyone from "somewhat experienced" to "extremely experienced" gets a 4. Only the "Best of the Best" would exceed the normal human limit and have a legendary SPD of 5 or 6 (they're legendary because someone with that level of reaction speed comes along maybe once every two or three generations; if 1% of the population, or even one person in a million, is that fast, then it's not "legendary").

 

If we establish that a 3 SPD (or a primary stat of, say, 13) is reserved for elite soldiers and the most experienced SWAT team officer on the force, then our PC's are probably happier having a 3 SPD (13 stat), might consider a 2 SPD (where concept suggests they are not at this elite level; an 8 or 10 primary) and only the PC whose concept cries out for amazing reaction times might be lead to a 4 (or a 15 - 18 primary stat).

 

But if we establish that every beat cop has a 3 SPD (and physical stats of 13 - 15), and every special training officer has a 4 (and primaries of 18 - 20), the character with a 2 or 3 SPD (or primaries of 13 - 15) becomes substandard, and a 4 SPD (or 18 - 20 primary) is "ho hum ordinary PC", so characters who should be exceptionally fast need a 5 or 6 (23+ primary) to achieve their concept. And suddenly none of the PC's are really "normal humans" any more - and we eonderhow a stats can be "legendary" when every PC and most notable NPC's are at or above that level.

 

The PC can't be evaluated in a vacuum.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Most normals should be SPD 1 IMO. The base 'normal' template vastly overestimates the average citizen in a crisis.

 

Actually, I would say its not the speed per se but a function of PRE attack. For example, volunteer firefighters are your average Joe but why do they react faster in a fire than say maybe a cop? Because even volunteers having training to go into a blaze, which for a majority of people is counterintuitive. When facing a fire to go in might be considered a form of PRE attack. So some people might heisitate before entering (lose a phase) whereas the firefighter charges into it. Now take a shooting. Again if its treated like a PRE attack, the cop would react whereas the firefighter might heisitate. Just because you have the potential to act doesn't mean that you do. (Of course the heroes by definition wouldn't pause, unless there is a pscy lim.)

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

The problem is limited range. If we establish that an average person has primary stats of 8' date=' and SPD 2, and that the peak human has primary stats of 20 and SPD 4, there are only a very few options in that range to reflect gradations.[/quote']

 

I've seen this complaint before, about gradations at the lower level. I'm curious though, how much gradations do we need, or want?

[phoenix240]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Most normals should be SPD 1 IMO. The base 'normal' template vastly overestimates the average citizen in a crisis. I would peg all their primary characteristics at 5, as well as Body, reduce SPD to 1, OCV to zero and DCV to 1.

 

I think some of this ineffectualness goes to fear, panic and shock (Situational Pre attack?). Just because they can act more often doesn't mean a typical person will in a crisis situation.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Actually' date=' I would say its not the speed per se but a function of PRE attack. For example, volunteer firefighters are your average Joe but why do they react faster in a fire than say maybe a cop? Because even volunteers having training to go into a blaze, which for a majority of people is counterintuitive. When facing a fire to go in might be considered a form of PRE attack. So some people might heisitate before entering (lose a phase) whereas the firefighter charges into it. Now take a shooting. Again if its treated like a PRE attack, the cop would react whereas the firefighter might heisitate. Just because you have the potential to act doesn't mean that you do. (Of course the heroes by definition wouldn't pause, unless there is a pscy lim.)[/quote']

 

As someone who has had to fight a fire (forest, ship and house,) I would say this is spot-on.

 

PRE's importance ramps up dramatically as SPDs diminish. I don't have to make many impressive successes to cost you your entire Turns worth of segments if you have a 2 SPD. If you've ever been allowed to make PRE Attacks in a street-level or low powered game, you discover the true awesomeness of PRE. You also discover that buying Calm in a Crisis or Icewater in my Veins PRE Defense is vital!

 

This IMO is the magic of Batman. Not that his SPD is Spideyriffic but that he PRE Attacks others into having effectively diminished SPD, usually to lower than his own. It's one of the reasons why he has so much trouble with normal-level villains who are too insane to be afraid. "Cowardly and superstitious lot" and all.

 

Ratcheting back SPD to closer to a human mean dramatically increases the impact of several aspects of the game, notably PRE but also END/STUN/REC and the Post 12.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Are you lot still here?

 

I have a question: Why is discussing why Speed is so unpopular so popular? That may be rhetorical.

 

Carry on.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Are you lot still here?

 

I have a question: Why is discussing why Speed is so unpopular so popular? That may be rhetorical.

 

Carry on.

 

Meta-wry, my favorite humor.

[Lucius]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've seen this complaint before' date=' about gradations at the lower level. I'm curious though, how much gradations do we need, or want?[/quote']

 

That depends.

 

If you think Hero=Champions and only want to play or run superheroes who are so mighty that ordinary people all pale into insignificance, you probably don't care if there is no effective distinction between Aunt May and Lois Lane and Sgt Rock. All they're supposed to be is helpless mortals.

 

If, like me, you're not really that into comics and want to play at the heroic rather than superheroic level, then yeah, you'll care about a lot of finer grained distinctions that would be too small to measure from the point of view of Superman or the Hulk.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Introducing Palindromedary and Superpalindromedary by George Burnart Pshaw

[dmjalund]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

why dont we make turns 24 segments long, and then just double speed