Why is Speed so unpopular?

[Vondy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Why is "face time" a problem? Players need to keep their ego in check' date=' not whine about "face time".[/quote']

 

Players also need to respect that they aren't the only one at the table and other people need to have fun too. Ergo, to keep their ego in check. A character with an 8 speed gets TWICE at many actions as a speed 4 character and will, as a result, have a dominant impact. When the disparities in speed between PCs are small, then I agree with you that players should "suck it up."

 

But when disparities are large it can mean some players are twiddling their thumbs while another player gets to be constantly making choices and having an impact. It is possible to build a character that, while efficient and great as a stand alone character, has a generally negative impact on the meta-aspect of what is, normally, a social activity engaged in by a group.

 

Its a question of balance. Its not all one way or another. For the game to work you have to sync the characters so that they work not just mechanically, but socially as well. Hero is a system that requires thought - and balance - on many levels. Not just mechanics, not just FX, but play experience as well.

[casualplayer]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Why is Speed unpopular? Well, it has a confusing name. It probably should be called Actions or Reaction or even Face Time. The name Speed makes people confuse it with Initiative if they are crossing over from another system and that's not what it does. It's how many times in a 12 second window your character can majorly change what they are doing.

 

It should be divested from being a movement multiplier because that drives people crazy and causes way too many problems. It should be able to be Pushed (how's that for making it less predictable.) It should probably default to a higher base value, say 6, so that +/- 1 isn't such a major capability swing. It doesn't always have to run 12, post-12, 1, etc, etc as Turns could start on any phase. Anyone who says that Speed is too predictable has not spent enough time reading the Block rules.

 

I have had a player who didn't realize what it meant to have a Speed 2 when the other players had Speeds of 3-4. She was the powerhouse but was very unhappy with the amount of screentime she got. So we tweaked her character because if the rules get in the way of fun, change them.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

......................

About the only problem I see with this idea, is the way the system deals with changes to your Speed. From what I recall, if you do anything that changes your speed (short of lowering it) you can't act again until you have a phase, from both Speeds, that you would be able to go on. Then you can start acting on your new phase.

 

And you would have to go through that same song and dance every time your Speed changed, which would slow the game down even further (at least for you*) and I think, cause more headaches than it would resolve.

 

*=This is a general "you" and not you specifically . . .

 

Edit:

PS: For the record, I don't have a problem with Speed.

 

Good point, although if you change speed PS12 then you just change SPD: the waiting until both SPDs could have acted (not actually when both SPDs would have had a phase on the same segment) only applies when you are changing SPD mid-turn. (6.2.17)

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Speed is a tool that allows the GM a bit of overall control over how combats work. First of all the way I see it is your ability to string together actions within combat, and react to changing situations: being over SPD 4 does not necessarily mean you are blurring, just that you are predicting what is going to happen next due to (perhaps) a lot of combat experience, so you get more done. You are not reacting faster so much as starting to react earlier.

 

Anyway, the point is that SPD tends to find a level within most games. You might have a 'fast' character* who is a couple of points higher then normal, but generally most superheroes tend to be in the 4-6 SPD range.

 

The effect of SPD is therefore a meta-effect bearing this in mind:

 

1. Each additional point of SPD is worth less than the last - SPD suffers diminishing returns. Going from SPD 2 to SPD 4 doubles potential damage output. Going from 4 to 6 just adds 50%. I know it is not quite that simple but it is still basically true.

 

2. Higher SPD averages mean more time between recoveries and so:

2a. END becomes more of an issue

2b. REC becomes less important relative to more STUN

 

3. Lower SPD averages tend to mean that certain builds are un-put-down-able. Good defences and Recovery mean that some characters never run out of Stun. Also low SPD makes END less important and so powers are less likely to be bought with 'Reduced END', which means that, if you are running an active point cap, powers are relatively more powerful, which counters the increased effect of REC somewhat.

 

About the only thing I do not like about SPD, and have not found an entirely satisfactory work around, is that higher SPD means more distance in movement per turn but does not change velocity modifiers. The only 'easy' way around it would be to change the way we buy movement powers i.e. buy move/turn rather than move/phase.

 

Ultimately it is all about customisation of the experience you want, and Hero is all about customisation.

 

 

*And bear in mind you can build a very good 'fast' character with a perfectly average SPD!

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

What makes you think SPD is unpopular? I don't know anyone who has a problem with it.

 

Most games I can think of have some sort of mechanic that determines who gets to move when to prevent chaos from erupting in every fight or time-sensitive situation. Nobody I've met has a problem with that.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Fwiw I ran a game of martial artists which were all spd 6, even the brick. And it worked out fine.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It's always kind of interesting to read others' views of something and compare them to your own.

 

For example, someone mentioned that, to them, the Speed Chart was unintuitive whereas I have always found it one of the most intuitive parts of the system.

 

I have also never seen the siutation where a high SPD character has dominated the game. Perhaps, he might dominate some combats but I don't think I have ever played in a HERO campaign (Champions or any other sort) where combat was the be all and end all.

 

I suspect it may boil down to the fact that GMing Hero well requires certain skills including organization and an ability to balance players' "face time". For example, if the SPD 4 character has not been able to contribute as much in combat lately because of higher SPD characters beating him to the punch, perhaps the GM mgiht throw in a meaty storyline based around the character to make up for it.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

My best play experience with the Hero System was a game of Danger International. All of the characters were SPD 4 or less. And the time had was glorious! Play has never moved faster for me.

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It should be divested from being a movement multiplier because that drives people crazy and causes way too many problems.

When you buy your Movement in "per Turn" segments, you still have to divide it through your SPD (wich includes Rounding problems) to get the "per phase" movement. And then the question is if "40 m per Turn" is slow or fast.

I think the current variant is better.

 

It should probably default to a higher base value' date=' say 6, so that +/- 1 isn't such a major capability swing. It doesn't always have to run 12, post-12, 1, etc, etc as Turns could start on any phase.[/quote']

Considering that every standart manevuer cost 1 end, the difference between 2 and 6 per turn is big. STR in heroic games also costs more (1 END/5 Points).

 

Sean pointed out the problems with that:

2. Higher SPD averages mean more time between recoveries and so:

2a. END becomes more of an issue

2b. REC becomes less important relative to more STUN

 

About the only thing I do not like about SPD' date=' and have not found an entirely satisfactory work around, is that higher SPD means more distance in movement per turn but does not change velocity modifiers. The only 'easy' way around it would be to change the way we buy movement powers i.e. buy move/turn rather than move/phase.[/quote']

My easiest approach would be to derive the Velocity based damage Bonus from turn-velocity (as the Velocity based DCV is derived from speed per turn), but use a higher divisor. Of coruse that could quickly make Move By/Move through useless for heroic characters or overpowered for Superheroic characters.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Fwiw I ran a game of martial artists which were all spd 6' date=' even the brick. And it worked out fine.[/quote']

 

It seems to work well when all the PCs' SPD scores are clumped close together (3-5, 4-6).

 

But SPD doesn't really matter much outside of combat situations. At least, I haven't see a detective with SPD 8 solve mysteries faster than one with SPD 3. So maybe the problem with SPD is really not with SPD at all but rather a problem of playing in a campaign that is all about combat effectiveness?

[randian]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It seems to work well when all the PCs' SPD scores are clumped close together (3-5' date=' 4-6).[/quote']

I've seen higher SPD spreads work quite well. Sometimes the martial artists shine, sometimes the bricks do. SPD is hardly the only or best determinant of combat effectiveness. This reminds me of threads about how overpowered STR is.

[itsalwayssunny]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've seen higher SPD spreads work quite well. Sometimes the martial artists shine' date=' sometimes the bricks do. SPD is hardly the only or best determinant of combat effectiveness. This reminds me of threads about how overpowered STR is.[/quote']

 

 

There are often exceptions and anecdotal evidence, so "I've seen..." doesn't mean much without more detail. What are the "higher SPD spreads" that worked well for you? In what way did they work well?

 

Nobody said that SPD was "the only or best determinant of combat effectiveness." I said some campaigns are solely about making PCs combat monsters and not much else and SPD is often very important in such games.

 

I'm interested in hearing from you: What do you think is/are the best determinant(s) of combat effectiveness? Why?

 

(Whether STR is overpowered or not is totally off-topic, but again, STR doesn't mean much in games that are about more than just combat.)

[Clonus]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've seen higher SPD spreads work quite well. Sometimes the martial artists shine' date=' sometimes the bricks do. SPD is hardly the only or best determinant of combat effectiveness. This reminds me of threads about how overpowered STR is.[/quote']

 

My experience has been that the bricks move heaven and earth to ensure they have just as many actions as the fastest characters.

[randian]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

There are often exceptions and anecdotal evidence, so "I've seen..." doesn't mean much without more detail. What are the "higher SPD spreads" that worked well for you? In what way did they work well?

In higher-power games, 5-10 SPD. By well I mean everybody has their day in the sun. Typically, high SPD characters compromised on defenses and some damage, so any time area effects were common their SPD advantage evaporated in aborts, and against tough boss monsters they'd do piddling damage after defenses. Typically, low SPD characters compromised on CV and had high defenses, so high CV opponents were a problem, but they rarely need to abort and were great against most boss monsters due to superior damage output. It was a tossup against mooks. Both seemed equally bad or good against mentalists and sense-affecting powers.

I'm interested in hearing from you: What do you think is/are the best determinant(s) of combat effectiveness? Why?

In Hero I'd argue there's no best determinant. It's too highly situation dependent. I've seen everything be "best" at one time or another. SPD is real nice, but what did you give up to get it? If the answer is "nothing", that's the problem right there.

(Whether STR is overpowered or not is totally off-topic, but again, STR doesn't mean much in games that are about more than just combat.)

I was making an analogy, not starting a discussion of STR.

[phoenix240]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

What makes you think SPD is unpopular? I don't know anyone who has a problem with it.

 

I have. It probably one of the main complaints/issues that people have against the Hero System, IME.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

This is true of Hero as a system. Very few things in it are broken. Almost everything in it requires... regulation.

 

Alternately, nearly everything in the system is broken, because almost everything requires regulation.

[Greywind]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It was only broken after it was shot. They put it down.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

That would perhaps lead to someone changing his concept to accomodate his design.

 

Which I would regard as completely unacceptable behaviour.

[torchwolf]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Segmented Movement has been mentioned, but maybe decoupling Movement completely from SPD (as suggested in APG 1 on p61) might solve several of these issues;

all characters have a set "per-Segment" Movement that is used for everything,

everyone gets to move each Segment so "face time" differences don't get so obvious,

it negates occasional disconnects for new players with why SPD increases movement rate,

and it reduces the "I'm standing around until my next Phase" perception that seems hard to break even when the GM describes events in a fluid manner.

 

I'm considering using decoupled movement during my next run as GM - using MapTools it should work fairly well (though affecting character builds slightly).

During 4th Edition, I tried out Segmented Movement, but moving miniatures tiny increments of distance each Segment can get a bit silly.

[Badger]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I just took some index cards and wrote down' date=' in thick black marker, which segments each speed acts on, but them where everybody can see them, and flip them as we move through segments, and count down DEX. It's usually not even that necessary, as we only have to track speeds 5-7 (with a very rare 4) in superhero games, and 3-4 in heroic games. I consider the predictability of the Speed Chart to be a feature, not a bug. I like it that way.[/quote']

 

Yeah, SPD 1-4 & 6 should be easy to figure. 5&7?......look it up and memorize it. (and 8 or above? Those want come up often, would they?)

 

In any case, it has never been too hard for me to keep up with. (or maybe I get one of my wierd numbers kicks out of it). Of course, I tend to prefer characters who are high in SPD, which might be why it doesnt bother.

[Badger]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

That's the ticket!

 

But personally I plan to run Heroic games in which all the player characters will have SPD 3 and opposition will range from 2 to 4.

 

As for reasons to dislike it - I do find that the way SPD interacts with Movement can confuse people. Even experienced players will assume "One character has a Run of 8 m and the other of 12; the second character is faster" when if their SPDs are 3 and 2 they have the same ground speed, and if the first has SPD 4 the second character is actually slower.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I have a ticket to ride a palindromedary

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Actually, that seems like it would be a bigger problem with creation. When I first started out, my thinking was to give speedsters ridiculously high SPD levels, rather than ridiculous extra running. Which might not necessarily be the best strategy. (both costs and gameplay)

[Badger]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I'm not all that good at organization and that mean that I had trouble as a GM keeping track of when everyone moved.

 

I am kind of wierd with organization. If it is number/mathematically related it comes naturally. If not? I am hopelessly screwed.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Call me crazy, but I like Speedsters with ridiculously high speeds. Of course to me, a ridiculously high speed is a SPD7.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Call me crazy' date=' but I like Speedsters with ridiculously high speeds. Of course to me, a ridiculously high speed is a SPD7.[/quote']

 

Hi Crazy. You can call me Serious. Just don't call me Shirley.

[randian]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

it negates occasional disconnects for new players with why SPD increases movement rate,

and it reduces the "I'm standing around until my next Phase" perception

I find these perceptions ... odd. Is there any game system in which you're not "standing around until your next action"? Is there any game system in which movement is not tied to your next action (absent an unusual class feature or power)? Having such perceptions about Hero but not typical round-based systems is even ... more odd.

 

Can you imagine a D&D player asking "why does my movement rate increase if I get an extra Standard Action?" Of course not, they make the obvious inference from the rules ("because movement is one of the things you can do during a Standard Action") and their troubles disappear. So why is said player mysteriously unable to make the exact same inference ("because movement is one of the things you can do during a Phase") when learning Hero?