Why is Speed so unpopular?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I'm inclined to suggest trying to just set everyone at the same base Speed, and assume that any extra points of Speed equate to extra actions on the phase(s) in question, that you have to declare, possibly modified by initiative(e.g., if everyone has a base Speed of 4, then any extra actions take place on the character's (DEX- (DEX/4)) and at subsequent increments of DEX/4.) The character may choose to defer their extra action to the following phase(s) or act on a later segment. Of course, this is only beneficial if it happens to compress the extra "face time" given the faster PC, so it's more comparable to what the slower PCs get.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I have played a game based on HERO where the players had custom built character sheets that were not HERO at all. All of the players were told that a standard round was made of two actions, some players were fast and so had an extra action after the second standard action was taken and some players were lightning and had an extra action after each of the two standard actions. (SPD 2, 3 and 4)

 

It worked - no-one fussed or moaned. I really do think that a HERO game can work lots better when the players do not see the nuts and bolts - players worry about every number on their character sheet and how they can make that number work for them most effectively. When you take away 70% of the numbers (and this is easily accomplished) then they worry 70% less about the game mechanics....

 

 

Doc

[Tom Carman]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I see pros and cons to speed.

 

... and 2) allows characters on the high end too much "face time."

 

Still, I consider it much less obnoxious and unfair than initiative systems where high initiative means "I act lots 'n' lots of times before you get to do anything at all."

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Outside of the Hero System community mostly. The Speed mechanic and its function seem to be one of the primary complaints brought up by people that don't care for the Hero System aside from the math and perceived complexity of play and character generation. It's never really seemed that complicated to me and has even proven very smooth in online play. Juggling initiative mechanics can be a real pain in PBEM/PbP.

I do like the Speed mechanic. I know only few other games with something similar, namely Shadowrun and the old Star Wars D6 RPG (in a fashion; how often you can act depended on your Skill values).

 

But I also do see some potential problems with tracking spd. Especially when there is a wide range of speeds and holding/aborting comes into the play things can get messy. I considered writing a SPD tracker, but that would be surprisingly complicated. Just having SPD listed, and sorting character by dex is the easy part. Inlcuding Abort not so much.

On Herocentral I see a lot of "SPD 5 is for most, more is martial Artist or Speedster".

 

I never noticed the facetime issue, but I think it can even be more of a problem in PbP than in Face to Face.

Another aspect of having a somewhat higher SPD: It changes when character act in relation to each other. Example SPD 5 vs SPD 6:

The SPD 6 cahracter can act in Segment 2, 4 and 6 without sacrificing his ability to abort when his enemy acts (in Segment 3, 5 or 8 respectively).

[Zephrosyne]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've always thought that Speed was a bit too cheap. I apply the Characteristic Maxima to it no matter what type of campaign I am running. You wanna "go" a lot, pay for it. I do admit that the speed table is a little more of a task to keep up with than "ok, it's round two, John goes first followed by Sally, Charlie, and Matt," but it's also more interesting. The way that it works with Movement Powers is a bit weird in that the guy with the most meters of movement is not necessarily the fastest but it is what it is. You also have a lot more to keep up with mentally when you get into things like Aborting and things that happen at the end of the segment (or the next segment like Haymaker) or stuff like that. It's just too easy to forget something or someone if you are really focused on what you are doing. As for face time, I don't really have that much of a problem with my players. Of course, I usually let other players do some of my rolling (usually not any crucial rolls), especially a player who is unconcious or not in the scene. I have no qualms about drafting a little helper. I let them roll a lot for friendly NPCs and some of my not-so-important unfriendly NPCs. You should see the looks on their faces when they nail a fellow player or nearly get a friendly NPC killed. They also high five each other when the roll well for the friendly NPC. It works out great.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

alpha-methylphenethylamine turns people into fools. Is Speed unpopular? Who with? Idiots?

 

Hero is a toolkit, and Speed is a tool. Don't like the predictability? Buy an extra point or two of Speed on an activation roll or a couple of points of DEX (only for determining combat order) on an activation roll.

 

BANG! You've got a variable initiative system. The flipping beauty is that not every character needs to do it: like to know when you go next? Boom: don't build your character like that.

 

Hell, why not do this: +1 skill level if you are on a held action.

 

OK, OK, never mind that: what if you DON'T want a multiple actions system? Get everyone to buy the same Speed. Low Speed means that END is less important and healing in combat is quicker, high Speed means that you go down quicker as REC is less of a factor.

 

Toolkit. Toolkit. Variable number of actions? Set number of actions? Set combat order? Variable combat order?

 

Hero can do.

 

They just don't understand, do they?

 

Idiots.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

The SPD 6 cahracter can act in Segment 2' date=' 4 and 6 without sacrificing his ability to abort when his enemy acts (in Segment 3, 5 or 8 respectively).[/quote']

 

It is all tactics though. If your opponent acts once more in a round than you, then you have to mix it up, for example by forgoing the post segment twelve recovery to carry your first action through to segment 1 and throwing off the reliance on safe segments, etc. :-)

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It is all tactics though. If your opponent acts once more in a round than you' date=' then you have to mix it up, for example by forgoing the post segment twelve recovery to carry your first action through to segment 1 and throwing off the reliance on safe segments, etc. :-)[/quote']Pretty sure holding your Phase 12 action doesn't negate your PS12 Recovery.

[Beast]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

1 reason I have not seen post ,is that a speed chart is also used in Starfleet Battles

that may add to the crunch aversion to some people(not me I like the crunch)

[randian]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've found high SPD to be a "so what", generally. You want a 10 SPD martial artist to the other player's 5 SPD brick? That 50 points is going to really hurt somewhere. Your defense, your offense, whatever. You will frequently find yourself acting often but doing little or nothing, especially against Boss Villains. A properly done SPD chart and an aggressive GM makes combat fast; cards, tokens, and calling DEX/SPD out slows things down. Players should always have their move planned in advance so when the GM calls they're ready to go immediately. Most of the time, you can figure out your next move right after your last phase, and it will still be what you want to do when your next phase is called. Teaching neophytes that one thing tremendously speeds up combat.

 

Other speedy things:

 

Total up your dice in groups of ten

Count BODY in an "up X/down Y" style

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I use an equasion I derived from the Normal Characteristics Maxima in 5th Edition Revised to control Though some people would consider it tyrannical. But I find it to be an essential tool to keep SPD scores sensible.

 

I have gone so far, that with my own characters, I have incorporated use of that equasion into any character I make at all.

 

((Dex /10)+1) X 1.333333333, rounded off

 

This equasion generates what I consider the maximum allowable SPD score based on the character's DEX, in my own house rules. As well as the standard I build my own characters by.

 

By this house rule, I have made an adaptation of Barry Allen. The Flash at having a SPD 4. quite a few skill levels, and Autofire on his STR. and the Rapid Attack Skill. Resulting in a character that has a truly enormous number of attacks per game turn.

 

So using that example, a high SPD is really even unnecessary for the most archetypical speedster of them all.

 

Having the Autofire bought to 5 shots, and having enough skill levels to reliably fire off 4 of those volleys with the Rapid Attack rule. Makes that SPD 4 character able to fire off a maximum of 20 attacks with a single attack action. They can still use the other half action to dodge, move, or whatever. And of coarse those autofire attacks can be spread over an area....

 

That comes out with a character that can fire off a maximum of 80 attacks per turn.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Overthinking it. This from me...

 

If you don't like SPD make all your heroes and major villains SPD 4. Middling characters are SPD 3. Thugs and such. Normals are SPD 2.

 

You want your character to hit twice as fast? Buy autofire.

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It is all tactics though. If your opponent acts once more in a round than you' date=' then you have to mix it up, for example by forgoing the post segment twelve recovery to carry your first action through to segment 1 and throwing off the reliance on safe segments, etc. :-)[/quote']

 

Pretty sure holding your Phase 12 action doesn't negate your PS12 Recovery.

Same for me too. Post Segment 12 happens, no mater what you do with your last phase in the turn. The only thing that can stop Post-Seg 12 Recovery is holding ones breath...

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I use a "benchmark" similar to the above equation, although it's more lenient: my characters' SPD scores are almost always between .2x DEX and .25x DEX. Also, I have to agree with randian; SPD is far from the only source of extra actions/attacks. Even a SPD 3 character using various power advantages, rapid attack, autofire skills, and skill levels in combination with multiple attack maneuvers, is a potential whirlwind of destruction.

 

Okay, I could have bought my SPD up to 6; instead I spent 30pts on Rapid Attack and 4 skill levels, which will likely triple my effective attacks, instead of just doubling them. Maybe it's not SPD that's broken here....

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Pretty sure holding your Phase 12 action doesn't negate your PS12 Recovery.

 

It explicitly does not in 6th. It is less explicit in 5th but in 4th edition there is a sentence that says "A character may not hold his action and then recover" and even though this comes in a paragraph after one that says "Segment 12 recovery is free and places no requirements on the character", my group has been playing this to mean that you can hold across turns but it prevents you from recovering...

[Christopher]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It explicitly does not in 6th. It is less explicit in 5th but in 4th edition there is a sentence that says "A character may not hold his action and then recover" and even though this comes in a paragraph after one that says "Segment 12 recovery is free and places no requirements on the character"' date=' my group has been playing this to mean that you can hold across turns but it prevents you from recovering...[/quote']

Such a sentence is in 6E too, but it is only for "Taking a Recovery" - spending your entire phase to get an extra recovery, but being extremely vulnerable.

[Vanguard]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

In my experience, SPD is the most abused characteristic in the system. It is the most prone to getting artificially inflated, simply over a player's desire to have their character act more in a turn. Instead of actually giving a care to actually the game's scaling.

 

This causes innumberable problems with actually running a game in the Hero System. It slows things down dramatically, to compensate for those artificially inflated SPD scores. And it starts a SPD arms race that the GM finds themselves having to play "keep up" with just to make adiquate challenges for the PCs.

 

Let's look at the game's scaling. Every 5 points spent on a characteristic is a doubling on the scale. And since SPD is 10 points a pop, that means a SPD 5 actually represents 4 times the ability to act as a SPD 4. Pretty significant overall.

 

SPD inflation breaks the system.

 

This is the point where the GM needs to step in and say "No".

 

If someone wants to increase their Speed just because they want to go more times, that's not a valid reason for an increase in speed and the GM needs to take steps to keep that from happening.

 

The same can be said for Dex (before 6th decoupled it from CVs). You'd have characters with ludicrously high dex's because they wanted to have high CV values, which led to Dex inflation.

 

The same concept applies to Speed and Speed Inflation and the same measures, the GM just plain saying "No", can be taken to stop it.

 

And this was one of the situations that the optional Velocity Factor rules were created to help deal with.

 

Optional Velocity Factor? Is this in one of the APG's? 'Cause I'm really interested in that concept and would like to take a look at it.

 

alpha-methylphenethylamine turns people into fools. Is Speed unpopular? Who with? Idiots?

 

Hero is a toolkit, and Speed is a tool. Don't like the predictability? Buy an extra point or two of Speed on an activation roll or a couple of points of DEX (only for determining combat order) on an activation roll.

 

 

About the only problem I see with this idea, is the way the system deals with changes to your Speed. From what I recall, if you do anything that changes your speed (short of lowering it) you can't act again until you have a phase, from both Speeds, that you would be able to go on. Then you can start acting on your new phase.

 

And you would have to go through that same song and dance every time your Speed changed, which would slow the game down even further (at least for you*) and I think, cause more headaches than it would resolve.

 

*=This is a general "you" and not you specifically . . .

 

Edit:

PS: For the record, I don't have a problem with Speed.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

...

Optional Velocity Factor? Is this in one of the APG's? 'Cause I'm really interested in that concept and would like to take a look at it.

 

It's from 5er page 436.

 

I don't know if it was republished in the 6e APG books though.

edit

found it in APG1 page 178.

[Vanguard]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Woot!!

 

Thanks Hyper.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

alpha-methylphenethylamine turns people into fools. Is Speed unpopular? Who with? Idiots?

 

Hero is a toolkit, and Speed is a tool. Don't like the predictability? Buy an extra point or two of Speed on an activation roll or a couple of points of DEX (only for determining combat order) on an activation roll.

 

BANG! You've got a variable initiative system. The flipping beauty is that not every character needs to do it: like to know when you go next? Boom: don't build your character like that.

 

Hell, why not do this: +1 skill level if you are on a held action.

 

OK, OK, never mind that: what if you DON'T want a multiple actions system? Get everyone to buy the same Speed. Low Speed means that END is less important and healing in combat is quicker, high Speed means that you go down quicker as REC is less of a factor.

 

Toolkit. Toolkit. Variable number of actions? Set number of actions? Set combat order? Variable combat order?

 

Hero can do.

 

They just don't understand, do they?

 

Idiots.

 

Pretty much this.

 

The only issue I have with speed is it's predictability, but as Sean pointed out, that's easy to fix, and I have fixed it before by implementing a simple randomizer for determining who goes when during the turn. (I do like the idea of extra Speed on an Activation roll. Nice one!)

 

Speed scores in my games (mostly Heroic) are pretty much a tight spread between 3 and 5 (with most normals/non-combatants at SPD2) though I do often allow for augmention (magical, technological or whatever) to temporarily boost speed scores by +1 or +2.

[randian]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've never understood the argument that "SPD is predictable". Nearly all other games are round-based, so characters have exactly the same number of actions as every other, and since initiative is normally done once per combat (redoing it once per round, for example, would be murderous on the speed of your combats) everything is perfectly predictable. If anything, constraining SPD as some advocate would seem to reduce Hero to D&D. Everybody SPD 4? How's that different than round-based combat? If Hero deserves demerits for "predictability", then all games do.

 

Indeed, I find the use of the word "predictable" in this context odd. Generally, it is the result of a character's action (hit or miss, damage total) that is random. Though I am sure such an RPG exists, I've never seen one which attempted to randomize character abilities. "For this combat, you have d3+2 SPD". "You have 9+1d6m Running". "Instead of 50 STR, you have 40+1d20 STR (maybe the villians attacked when you were sick)". I'm not convinced of the merits of "unpredictability".

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Such a sentence is in 6E too' date=' but it is only for "Taking a Recovery" - spending your entire phase to get an extra recovery, but being extremely vulnerable.[/quote']

 

Yes, Christopher, it is in 6E too but there is also an explicit statement saying that it does not include losing the recovery over post-segment 12. Suggests to me that I may not have been the only one with the misapprehension that you could not recover while holding your action.

 

In first edition there is no real mention of holding your action at all.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

I've never understood the argument that "SPD is predictable". Nearly all other games are round-based' date=' so characters have exactly the same number of actions as every other, and since initiative is normally done once per combat (redoing it once per round, for example, would be murderous on the speed of your combats) everything is perfectly predictable. If anything, constraining SPD as some advocate would seem to reduce Hero to D&D. Everybody SPD 4? How's that different than round-based combat? If Hero deserves demerits for "predictability", then all games do.[/quote']

 

The question is about the number of actions and how you determine when they will happen. It is not just how often you act in a round but whether you go before others during those actions. So by limiting the number of actions for HERO you indicate that they will act in DEX order as there is no initiative mechanic in HERO. The SPD chart in effect is a way of combining number of actions and initiative into one handy doodad. However, people tend to see a restrictive grid rather than anything else, everyone locked into an iteritive loop that you cannot break out of.

 

In my opinion it provides a base upon which things can be planned but that is not everyone's perception. I think part of it is that many players think that once they have an action they have to take it or lose it. I have taken a more flexible approach.

 

Joe Schmoe is SPD 5. His stated segments to act on are (by the chart) 3,5,8,10 and 12. You will find that the vast majority of players will stick to acting on these segments unless they abort to defensive actions.

 

I would like to see players mix it up a bit. i would, as a GM, be happy to allow Joe to act on 4, 6, 9,10 and 12 as long as he never acted before segment three in a round and never got to segment 10, having held segment 8 and hoped to act on 10, 11 and 12. Once he is on the last segment of the next phase then the held action is lost.

 

As I said, I have done this through the provision of green cards. As long as your card is green you can act regardless of the segment. When a character acts, they turn their green card over to the red side.

 

I use the speed chart only to look see if I need to turn red cards green.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

It explicitly does not in 6th. It is less explicit in 5th but in 4th edition there is a sentence that says "A character may not hold his action and then recover" and even though this comes in a paragraph after one that says "Segment 12 recovery is free and places no requirements on the character"' date=' my group has been playing this to mean that you can hold across turns but it prevents you from recovering...[/quote']

 

Such a sentence is in 6E too' date=' but it is only for "Taking a Recovery" - spending your entire phase to get an extra recovery, but being extremely vulnerable.[/quote']

 

Yes' date=' Christopher, it is in 6E too but there is [b']also[/b] an explicit statement saying that it does not include losing the recovery over post-segment 12. Suggests to me that I may not have been the only one with the misapprehension that you could not recover while holding your action.

 

I always read the rule you cited as meaning "Your SPD 5 character cannot hold his action until DEX -35 on Segment 7, then declare a recovery, thus avoiding the drawbacks of taking a recovery in combat". I suspect the rules was added/clarified because prior edition players did exactly that.

 

This is the point where the GM needs to step in and say "No".

 

If someone wants to increase their Speed just because they want to go more times, that's not a valid reason for an increase in speed and the GM needs to take steps to keep that from happening.

 

The same can be said for Dex (before 6th decoupled it from CVs). You'd have characters with ludicrously high dex's because they wanted to have high CV values, which led to Dex inflation.

 

The same concept applies to Speed and Speed Inflation and the same measures, the GM just plain saying "No", can be taken to stop it.

 

The drawback here arises when the result is that some concepts get a significant advantage, which is typically a bug in the implementation. Pre-6e, there was only one cost-effective way of building a high CV character, and that was DEX. If you wanted 8 CV's, a 23 DEX was the only way to go, and even the earliest sample characters illustrated this, with "big slow Bricks" having a DEX of 18 - 20, instead of human average or below. Similar with Speed - the typical Super having 5, only the slowest at a 4 Speed.

 

This could easily be overcome, but it would require other limitations to level the playing field. If Bricks can't top a 4 SPD, EP's and mentalists can have no more than a 5, Martial Artists cap out at 7 and speedsters at 9 (just to toss out an array of limits), but all archetypes have the same maximum DC's, defenses, CV's, etc., guess which archetypes no one wants to play?

 

About the only problem I see with this idea' date=' is the way the system deals with changes to your Speed. From what I recall, if you do anything that changes your speed (short of lowering it) you can't act again until you have a phase, from both Speeds, that you would be able to go on. Then you can start acting on your new phase.[/quote']

 

In an older edition, the rule was to look at the old and new Speeds' next phase. You acted on the later of the two, after which you followed the new Speed. That's always worked better, and we've always house ruled it back in. So, if your SPD gets dropped from 6 to 5 after you move in Phase 12, SPD 6 would next move in Ph 2, and SPD 5 in Ph 3 - you next move in Ph 3. If you acted in Ph 2, then got Drained to SPD 5, your next phase would be 4 (SPD 6) or 3 (SPD 5), so you next acted in Ph 4, then in Ph 5, 8, 10, 12 as SPD 5. This seems much more reasonable than "well, the next phase you have in common is Ph 8, so that 1 point SPD drain costs you half a turn of inaction".

 

For the record, I like the SPD system.

 

And Randian nails it - "more predictable" than everything except 95%+ of the other game systems. It's certainly possible to make it more random, if one wants to do so.

[Shiva13]

Re: Why is Speed so unpopular?

 

Anything above SPD 4 is superhuman.

 

I disagree violently with people who try to say Bruce Lee was superhuman. When he was not. He was near the pinnacle of human achievement. But he was still just a regular human being.

 

People seem to also forget one of the fundamental issues regarding weightlifters. By the definitions of the game itself, a weightlifter is pushing when they attempt to lift such extreme amounts of weight. So there is actually no excuse for rating them beyond STR 20. Except in some rare exceptional cases.

 

For this reason, I also believe that the ability benchmarks chart in the rulebook is broken.