Ice9 Posted January 17, 2012 Report Share Posted January 17, 2012 So I've heard from various sources that Hardened has to be bought on the Resistant advantage itself, in addition to the defense. This is an odd interaction, unlike how any other advantage works, and I'm wondering a couple things: 1) Is this actually listed in the book anywhere? It's sort of implied by the way Resistant Defense works, but I don't think I've actually seen a direct statement. 2) Did Steve Long directly confirm this? I think I remember him doing so in response to a question, but I don't remember exactly what he said. 3) How many people actually run it that way? Personally, I don't - I don't see a balance need for it, and I'd rather "roll my own" Resistant Defense than have an advantage work entirely unlike the rest. I guess this is just a pet peeve - it's not like the point difference is very significant. I just saw a mention recently and it reminded me of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? On the one hand, it makes sense. 10 PD costs 10 points. Apply the 'Resistant' advantage and it costs 15. Apply Hardened (+1/4) on top of that and it costs 18.75 points (rounds to 19). That is the same as buying 10 points of Hardened Resistant Physical protection. On the other hand, if you apply the Hardened and Resistant advantages just to the base cost, it comes out at 17.5 (rounds to 17) points, and we can't be getting something for nothing. That would not be right It is not simply about the point cost though: if there are two effectively identical options and one is cheaper, then everyone will buy it that way. On the gripping hand, I have not seen it written down, but I am assuming that is how it should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted January 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? It just seems like a kludge for the existence of Resistant Defense though. If there was no such power, and people just bought PD/ED with Resistant and Hardened, I doubt anybody would be saying "17 points is too cheap, it should cost 19". I have very mixed feels about that power. From a "purist" standpoint, I feel like it's redundant (and it causes things like this). But from a practical standpoint, I know that many newbies would be turned off by something like "a suit of armor" requiring a compound power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? To bad resistance is a advantage instead of a power... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? To bad resistance is a advantage instead of a power... I know, there'd be no issue then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? See these 2 threads: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86926-Star-Sapphire?highlight=hardened http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/81659-Defense-Cost?highlight=hardened Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? On the one hand, it makes sense. 10 PD costs 10 points. Apply the 'Resistant' advantage and it costs 15. Apply Hardened (+1/4) on top of that and it costs 18.75 points (rounds to 19). That is the same as buying 10 points of Hardened Resistant Physical protection. On the other hand, if you apply the Hardened and Resistant advantages just to the base cost, it comes out at 17.5 (rounds to 17) points, and we can't be getting something for nothing. That would not be right It is not simply about the point cost though: if there are two effectively identical options and one is cheaper, then everyone will buy it that way. On the gripping hand, I have not seen it written down, but I am assuming that is how it should work. Hey, I understand why it's written up this way. Unfortunately this kind of "Simplification" is something that the system could have done without. I hate little gotchas like this, and I think that 6e is weaker because of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? See these 2 threads: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/86926-Star-Sapphire?highlight=hardened http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/81659-Defense-Cost?highlight=hardened I would agree with Steve Long (well you have to really) on the calculation logically, but it is fiddly and feels like an exception, which is non-excellent. Perhaps we get rid of the 'Resistant' advantage and, if you want base PD and ED to be resistant, buy it down to zero and back up with Resistant Protection. Fiddly too, but less so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I understand why people don't like it, but it just doesn't bother me. You do the calculation at char gen and it never (hmmm, maybe rarely, I'm sure there are some edge cases) effects game play so it to me it is a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I almost wonder whether 6E should have just done away with the concept of applying Resistant to "personal" PD and ED, and just made it so that buying some kind of Resistant Protection was the only way to get resistant defense. Since personal PD and ED are no longer Figured, you'd only be talking about the base 2 PD and ED anyway if you went that route. In retrospect, probably would have been a lot simpler... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? Better yet, do away with Resistant Protection as a Power, so Resistant is only an Advantage. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says I'm Resistant, but as a Psychological Limitation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 18, 2012 Report Share Posted January 18, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I almost wonder whether 6E should have just done away with the concept of applying Resistant to "personal" PD and ED' date=' and just made it so that buying some kind of Resistant Protection was the only way to get resistant defense. Since personal PD and ED are no longer Figured, you'd only be talking about the base 2 PD and ED anyway if you went that route. In retrospect, probably would have been a lot simpler...[/quote'] Better yet' date=' do away with Resistant Protection as a Power, so Resistant is only an Advantage. [/quote'] I'd go with Lucius' approach - Resistant as an advantage on defenses makes a reasonable approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I'd go with Lucius' approach - Resistant as an advantage on defenses makes a reasonable approach. I guess. It's just that Naked Advantages are a little more conceptually "advanced" than vanilla Powers are, and Advantages always have to be Naked when applied to the base levels of Characteristics... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? So there's no pleasing everyone? Knew that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I have no problem with there being both but if we were to drop one I'd say drop the advantage and keep the power. That would get rid of the complaints about the "oddness" ofapplying hardened to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I have no problem with there being both but if we were to drop one I'd say drop the advantage and keep the power. That would get rid of the complaints about the "oddness" ofapplying hardened to it. That's my preference as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I prefer to apply Resistant, Hardened, and Impenetrable together as one instead of Resistant as one "layer" and Hardened and/or Impenetrable on top of it. It's exceptional to the normal rules and it is a relic of previous editions. I see Resistant Protection as a convenient all-in-one defense power. It makes armor building simpler and because of the nature of Defense Powers and Adjustment Powers, it is harder to Drain than any defense bought with the Resistant Advantage. It's a tradeoff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? It would probably be more straightforward would be if we had a unified defence that cost 6.5 points per point which included all of the advantages currently available for defences and the base character template applied a mandatory -5.5 limitation to generate base PD and ED, then you apply custom modifiers to...no, hang on, that would probably be LESS straightforward. Always mixing those two up. I'm more worried about why you still have to buy a whole defence hardened and are not allowed to have just a bit of it hardened: makes no sense now that it does not affect penetrating attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice9 Posted January 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I have no problem with there being both but if we were to drop one I'd say drop the advantage and keep the power. That would get rid of the complaints about the "oddness" ofapplying hardened to it.Actually, to be honest, I found it odd that you had to apply Hardened to Damage Resistance back in 5E. I mean, if you have a RKA, and some OCV specifically for that RKA, it's not like you have to apply Armor Piercing to the OCV. Still felt like a kludge to match the cost of Armor. You still have to buy the whole defense Hardened? I don't think I've ever used that rule, it makes no sense that giving Diamond-Man a suit of armor somehow makes him less durable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? The suit of armor would be a separate layer of defense, and wouldn't have to be Hardened just because Diamond-Man's own PD is. But I do think the rule prevents such a character from buying Hardened for only 15 of his 30 basic PD, or for 4 of the 8 points of Resistant Protection provided by said suit of armor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Hiemforth Posted January 19, 2012 Report Share Posted January 19, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? The suit of armor would be a separate layer of defense' date=' and wouldn't have to be Hardened just because Diamond-Man's own PD is. But I do think the rule prevents such a character from buying Hardened for only 15 of his 30 basic PD, or for 4 of the 8 points of Resistant Protection provided by said suit of armor.[/quote'] This is right. However, I think Sean makes a good point that perhaps that rule isn't really needed anymore, now that Hardened only cancels Armor-Piercing, and not Penetrating. Because what's the potential issue if only part of a defense is Hardened? So only part of it resists being halved. What's wrong with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I have no problem with there being both but if we were to drop one I'd say drop the advantage and keep the power. That would get rid of the complaints about the "oddness" ofapplying hardened to it. I'd go the opposite and ditch the "advantage on advantage" The character has 2 PD, and you want 24 PD, all Hardened and Resistant? Add 22 PD, and buy "Resistant (+1/2), Hardened (+1/4) on 24 PD for 18 points. If there is no "resistant defenses" power to compare the cost to, it doesn't matter how we cost the ability, as long as the cost is reasonable, so who cares that this no longer costs [(24 x 1/4 = 6) + (24 x 1/2 x 1 1/14 = 15) = 21]? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? The problem with dropping one over the other is that one offers options that the other doesn't (The ability to buy other defenses like Power, Mental, Flash, etc...). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? The problem with dropping one over the other is that one offers options that the other doesn't (The ability to buy other defenses like Power' date=' Mental, Flash, etc...).[/quote'] I'm not sure I see that issue. What prevents you buying Power, Mental or Flash defense with the same advantages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted January 20, 2012 Report Share Posted January 20, 2012 Re: Hardened and Resistant - Why so strange? I'm not sure I see that issue. What prevents you buying Power' date=' Mental or Flash defense with the same advantages?[/quote'] Nothing. But Removing the Resistant Protection Power from the toolbox (with no other changes) removes the ability to include those secondary defenses as part of a Power Framework since they are all individually considered "Special" Powers (not normally allowed inside Frameworks) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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