Unofficial Advanced Player's Guide 3 Survey.

[steriaca]

This is an unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 survay. What would you want to see in APG3? What do you think needs clarifications? What would you add to the system if you could?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

Honestly, the thing I would most like to see is a wait of at least a couple of years before an APG3 was seriously considered. I love the books, and I love having cool options for the game, but I think 6E needs to have some more rubber-meeting-the-road time in its rear-view mirror before there'll be enough really good ideas to do a solid APG3.

 

Having said that (), one thing that might be cool is a "version translator." A set of official guidelines for converting characters from each previous edition of the HERO System into the 6E rules...

[JmOz]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

The only thing I would like is a skill system I came up with: Basically each skill would be written as a -/+ to a characteristic roll (1 point is a -4, 2 points -2, 3 points is 0, +2 points/+1) Then in play the GM would decide which characteristic best represents the skill needed, For instance Demolitions might be INT, or DEX based, or could be used to Identify a type of bomb with an INT roll. Another example is that Acrobatics might be used to know who won the Olympic Gold in 92...

[steriaca]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

Humm...nice ideals so far. Defently a 'how to convert to 6th' is needed, seeing that there are tons of 4th and 5th edition books around. Heck, there are still a lot of Champions 3 related stuff about.

 

The skill system sounds cool also.

 

I would add 'Secondary Endurance' in the stats section (if it is not covered in APG2, that is). That is for the 'eveybody can tap into, but not eveyone knows how to use' campains (Chi, in martial arts centered campains, Mana for Fantacy Hero, Mentel Endurance for 'psichic wars' campains, ect.

 

I would proably have a guide to creating 'metapowers' (new powers based on using existing powers and tweeking them, like my version of Instant Change).

 

Options for simulating 'Transfer' better.

 

Of course, APG3 should be begining to be complied by the begining of next year. As Derek said, there needs to be some time before the next APG, or it would be a rather slim book.

[Steve Long]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

As the more or less official Keeper of the Rules, I can shed a little insight on this.

 

It will be quite literally years and years before there could be an APG3. I used up all the material I had writing APG2, and I've only accumulated a few tidbits since then. Any APG3 I wrote now would be 95% fluff designed simply to pad out a book, and that's definitely something I have no interest in doing. I'm quite content to wait until there's enough actual useful new rules stuff to fill out APG3.

[bluesguy]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

It will be quite literally years and years before there could be an APG3. I used up all the material I had writing APG2' date=' and I've only accumulated a few tidbits since then. Any APG3 I wrote now would be 95% fluff designed simply to pad out a book, and that's definitely something I have no interest in doing. I'm quite content to wait until there's enough actual useful new rules stuff to fill out APG3. [/quote']

Thank you very much Steve. I deeply appreciate your position on this.

[mkultra]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

It could be padded with vehicle rules.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

1. Alcohol and recreational drugs. Seriously--what are the effects of mild to severe intoxication and/or being "high", in game terms?

2. Mental illness.

3. Reviving the "stress level" and PRE attack effects from 4th edition Horror Hero.

4. The Diceless Hero option. Maybe along with "Point-less Hero".

5. Adjusting real-world objects to a superhero setting(essentially, making it easier for supers to punch through tank armor, shrug off heavy artillery etc.)

6. Damage options--exponential and semi-logarithmic damage progression(with benchmarks); collateral damage; brick tricks like hand claps and shockwaves; extended stunning(e.g., for every 5 stun over the "stun number", -1 to CON roll to recover from being stunned, penalties if you're still being attacked, etc.); non-stun/body damage(e.g. punching someone in the solar plexus to reduce their endurance, hitting them in the arm or leg to reduce mobility/cv, etc.)

7. Relationship rules--obviously an optional rule, but something to at least give the option to flesh out and mechanically resolve dating, relationships/marriage, even physical intimacy.

8. Vehicle rules--terrain effects on movement; visibility; more detailed rules for what happens to the occupants when a vehicle crashes or has a collision; sailing ships and oared vessels; tracked vs. wheeled vs. "walking" vehicles; fuel/range; etc.

9. Modern and futuristic mass combat; fleet (space/naval) combat variants; aerial/space combat variants; superpowered beings in mass combat

10. Perk options--Popularity; more money options(maybe including Access, equipment, etc.); Follower loyalty levels; "Ablative" contacts(i.e., it's like a Favor, with charges, or a contact with a diminishing roll)

11. Talents--"Poker Face"(bonus to gambling, acting, persuasion), "Ladies Man/Man's woman/People pleaser"(bonuses to charm, conversation, persuasion, et al.), "Gift for Gab", "Fast Learner"(variant on cramming), Unlimited Potential(in a campaign with NCM, this represents the ability to exceed them without paying a penalty, for one or more stats), etc.

12. Powers--Reality Alteration, Advantage: Permanent Effect, Advantage: Automatic Effect(e.g., attack automatically hits, automatically does damage/full damage, etc.), Defense: Effect Avoidance, Advantage: Noncombat CV(i.e., this allows attack/defense at combat CV values while moving at noncombat speeds), etc.

[RexMundi]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

Honestly, while I think Steve made the best point, I'd like to see an APG III, with nothing but Horrid Power Gaming Examples and all the Stop-sign Nightmares one can think of. Then label it, The Power Gamers Guide. Sort of a Giant version of Goodman's Rules meets Planet Man and friends.

 

~Rex ......why not....Works for nearly any version of DnD.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

1. Alcohol and recreational drugs. Seriously--what are the effects of mild to severe intoxication and/or being "high"' date=' in game terms?[/quote']

 

There are basic effects of Intoxication already in the book, but some expanded info on that (and "environmental" conditions in general) might make good APG fodder.

 

2. Mental illness.

3. Reviving the "stress level" and PRE attack effects from 4th edition Horror Hero.

4. The Diceless Hero option. Maybe along with "Point-less Hero".

 

These all sound promising to me.

 

5. Adjusting real-world objects to a superhero setting(essentially' date=' making it easier for supers to punch through tank armor, shrug off heavy artillery etc.)[/quote']

 

This seems better suited to a Champions-specific product to me.

 

6. Damage options--exponential and semi-logarithmic damage progression(with benchmarks); collateral damage; brick tricks like hand claps and shockwaves; extended stunning(e.g.' date=' for every 5 stun over the "stun number", -1 to CON roll to recover from being stunned, penalties if you're still being attacked, etc.); non-stun/body damage(e.g. punching someone in the solar plexus to reduce their endurance, hitting them in the arm or leg to reduce mobility/cv, etc.)[/quote']

 

I like these too. Alternate versions of existing rules, or expanded ways of using them.

 

7. Relationship rules--obviously an optional rule' date=' but something to at least give the option to flesh out and mechanically resolve dating, relationships/marriage, even physical intimacy.[/quote']

 

I can only imagine the level of ridicule the Hero world would get if we did this...

 

8. Vehicle rules--terrain effects on movement; visibility; more detailed rules for what happens to the occupants when a vehicle crashes or has a collision; sailing ships and oared vessels; tracked vs. wheeled vs. "walking" vehicles; fuel/range; etc.

 

Don't want this stuff in APG3 at all. This needs to go into Hero System Vehicles.

 

9. Modern and futuristic mass combat; fleet (space/naval) combat variants; aerial/space combat variants; superpowered beings in mass combat

 

I like this one too. Or possibly something like a system for devising mass combat systems (to make it more universal). What factors to consider for terrains, units, damage, etc.

 

10. Perk options--Popularity; more money options(maybe including Access' date=' equipment, etc.); Follower loyalty levels; "Ablative" contacts(i.e., it's like a Favor, with charges, or a contact with a diminishing roll)[/quote']

 

More liking...

 

11. Talents--"Poker Face"(bonus to gambling' date=' acting, persuasion), "Ladies Man/Man's woman/People pleaser"(bonuses to charm, conversation, persuasion, et al.), "Gift for Gab", "Fast Learner"(variant on cramming), Unlimited Potential(in a campaign with NCM, this represents the ability to exceed them without paying a penalty, for one or more stats), etc.[/quote']

 

Hmm... APGs seem more for optional or expanded rules, rather than example builds. Some of these strike me as just examples of Talents built using Skill Levels and such.

 

12. Powers--Reality Alteration' date=' Advantage: Permanent Effect, Advantage: Automatic Effect(e.g., attack automatically hits, automatically does damage/full damage, etc.), Defense: Effect Avoidance, Advantage: Noncombat CV(i.e., this allows attack/defense at combat CV values while moving at noncombat speeds), etc.[/quote']

 

More coolness! (Though "Reality Alteration" sounds more like a special effect to me than a Power... I'd be curious to see what you had in mind.)

[Mister E]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

Alternate d4, d8, d10, d12, d20 & d100 rules.

 

[edit]:

 

& an acknowledgement of Extraordinary Characteristic rolls.

[Kap]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

7. Relationship rules--obviously an optional rule, but something to at least give the option to flesh out and mechanically resolve dating, relationships/marriage, even physical intimacy.

 

Maybe you mean something different from what I'm understanding here, but isn't this where roleplaying comes in?

 

--Kap

[megaplayboy]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

Maybe you mean something different from what I'm understanding here' date=' but isn't this where [i']roleplaying [/i]comes in?

 

--Kap

 

It can be, but roleplaying by itself may not be sufficient to address different aspects of this subject. For example, what happens when there's a disagreement over what the "outcome" of a roleplaying interaction should be? It can't always be worked out between players or between player and GM. Sometimes there has to be some sort of concrete way of resolving interactions where the outcome may be otherwise in doubt or dispute. YMMV.

[Mister E]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

It can be' date=' but roleplaying by itself may not be sufficient to address different aspects of this subject. For example, what happens when there's a disagreement over what the "outcome" of a roleplaying interaction [i']should[/i] be? It can't always be worked out between players or between player and GM. Sometimes there has to be some sort of concrete way of resolving interactions where the outcome may be otherwise in doubt or dispute. YMMV.

 

What about the social combat rules from APG2?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

there has to be some sort of concrete way of resolving interactions where the outcome may be otherwise in doubt or dispute.

 

If only this were true in real life...

[megaplayboy]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

What about the social combat rules from APG2?

 

Those are useful for some situations, but don't seem well-adapted to relationship interactions, dating and close friendships in particular.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

What about the social combat rules from APG2?

 

Those are useful for some situations' date=' but don't seem well-adapted to relationship interactions, dating and close friendships in particular.[/quote']

 

Yeah, I'd say they're more suited to adversarial social situations (such as court intrigue or debate), than (theoretically) cooperative ones...

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

I think megaplayboy's list is a great start.

 

I would add that I would love to see more self-contained powers, basically taking an effect that currently requires several advantages and limitations chained together to achieve the effect.

 

Basically, do away with the need to remember such complex builds and restait the effect you want to achieve as a single unified power build.

 

Also, some examples that leap to mind:

 

1. Poison Power

2. Disease Power

 

Now I know these are currently done in an adhoc manner that covers the specific detriment that hits a player (CON Penalty, etc...) but I'd like to see a Power developed for it that is able to incorporate more specific rules that are tailored to the concepts of Poisons and Diseases.

 

Also, I would take a close look at all of the HeroGlyph articles as I don't think all of those interesting optional powers have been carried forward.

 

TB

[steriaca]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

Humm...what eveyone said has merrits.

 

What I would add to Megaplayboy's list (and to Teflon Billy's add to it):

 

MetaPower rules: Rules for using given powers to create 'new' powers with effects we mostly all can agree on.

Examples: Boost (Aid, Cost Endurance to Maintain, -1/2), Boon (Aid, Delayed Fade Rate (1 Centery, +4), Limited Power (All Points Fade When A Certan Action Or Set Of Actions Happens, -1), Aid Others Only (-1)), Destroy (Drain, Delayed Return Rate (1 Centery, +4), Limited Power (All Points Return When A Certan Action Or Set Of Actions Happens, -1)), Instant Change (Cosmetic Transformation, Area of Effect (Surface, +1/4), No Range (-1/2)), Suppress (Drain, Cost Endurance To Maintain, -1/2), Transfer (Drain, Unified Power -1/4, and Aid, standard effect: same result on dice as Drain roll, Trigger (when using Drain, no time to activate, resets automaticly, +1), Linked (to Drain, -1/2), Unified Power -1/4).

 

Or, at least, make Instant Change a power again.

 

Secondary Endurance rules: Buying a second END stat for certan campains where things like 'eveyone can tap into magic' is common (MANA), or where 'eveyone can tap intio mental energys but fee can use it' are common (Mental Endurance, MEND), or where 'eveyone can tap into C'hi' are common (CHI). This in not exactly the same as requiering eveyone to buy an Endurance Reserve, for if the reserve runs dry, it then goes directly to STUN (like normal running out of END).

 

Sanity rules: The SAN charateristic, and what is the starting value, and how to damage SAN for thoes who can't wait for Horror Hero 6ed.

 

Expanded Weapion Familiarity list: Can I buy WF: Power Tools for my undead killer of foolish teenagers, please?

 

Mental Martial Arts, build rules: I just got Hero System Martial Arts, and I always pondered how to use thoes rules to buy Mental Martial Arts. It must be possable.

 

New Advantage: Awsome Power. This advantage, for +1/4, adds +1d6 to all Presence Attacks used right after the attack (along with other adds to Presence). For an aditinal +1/4, it adds another +1d6, and it can go on forever if the GM wishes.

 

New Limitation: Lackluster Power. This limitation lessens Presence Attacks by -1d6 for each -1/4 bought with it. It is oveous that you can't buy both Awsome Power and Lackluster Power for the same power.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Unofficial Advanced Player's Guide 3 Survey.

 

While I like the general idea of the "Awesome Power" advantage, it seems like just buying extra PRE, offensive only, linked to Power X(-1/2 level), would be a lot cheaper, at 2.5 points per +1d6 PRE attack. If you got to add a quarter or half of the base points of the power to your PRE attack, it might be more worthwhile. Ditto for the limitation--if it reduced your PRE attack by 25% or 50%, it'd be more worthwhile.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

While I like the idea of the unofficial survey, my suggestion is to use this thread to think about what we'd like to see, and then to create a new thread where people can try to put some of those ideas into more concrete form. The alternative is waiting 2-3+ years for Steve to get around to writing APG 3.

[steriaca]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

While I like the idea of the unofficial survey' date=' my suggestion is to use this thread to think about what we'd like to see, and then to create a new thread where people can try to put some of those ideas into more concrete form. The alternative is waiting 2-3+ years for Steve to get around to writing APG 3. [/quote']

 

True. Also, it would save Steve time. I mean, all the work would be done for him except for him putting it into his own words.

 

Who wants to tackle how to create mental martial arts manuvers?

[megaplayboy]

Re: Unoficial Advance Players Guide 3 Survay.

 

True. Also, it would save Steve time. I mean, all the work would be done for him except for him putting it into his own words.

 

Who wants to tackle how to create mental martial arts manuvers?

 

You might want to consult the 2nd APG, and 4th and 5th edition Ultimate Mentalist books. The 2nd APG did have mental martial arts maneuvers in it, in a section either just before or just after the Social Combat rules.

[gojira]

Re: Unofficial Advanced Player's Guide 3 Survey.

 

Some ideas for handling money in game worlds, and ideas for converting Active Points and Real Points into money. Convert Resource Pools into Money and go from there; there should be a one to one function like $5000 per character point in the resource pool. Let the rest falls where it will.

 

Plus a list of historical prices for as much stuff as we can get our little mitts on. I'll throw in modern prices too, on the basis that they'll be historical as soon as the work is published, and therefore fit right in with the other historical stuff. Plus some future tech prices. Post-Apoc, High Tech, grim and gritty, trade rules for games like Traveller, cyberwear.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Unofficial Advanced Player's Guide 3 Survey.

 

Some ideas for handling money in game worlds, and ideas for converting Active Points and Real Points into money. Convert Resource Pools into Money and go from there; there should be a one to one function like $5000 per character point in the resource pool. Let the rest falls where it will.

 

Plus a list of historical prices for as much stuff as we can get our little mitts on. I'll throw in modern prices too, on the basis that they'll be historical as soon as the work is published, and therefore fit right in with the other historical stuff. Plus some future tech prices. Post-Apoc, High Tech, grim and gritty, trade rules for games like Traveller, cyberwear.

 

A comprehensive guide to prices and trade in various tech levels would be useful, but I don't think it would be a good fit for an APG 3. Maybe an Equipment Guide 2...