The Sanity Stat

[steriaca]

For doing a 6ed of Horror Hero...how would you set the base level of the Sanity stat (SAN)? Should the base be at 10 or 20? How would you do rules to attack and heal Sanity? At what point would you say that the victom of Sanity damage is insaie...at 0 SAN or at Negitive Starting SAN?

[Christopher]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

For doing a 6ed of Horror Hero...how would you set the base level of the Sanity stat (SAN)? Should the base be at 10 or 20? How would you do rules to attack and heal Sanity? At what point would you say that the victom of Sanity damage is insaie...at 0 SAN or at Negitive Starting SAN?

I think it depends on teh game you try to model. Do you want Chutulu/Warhammer RPG style of degrading to madness, or should it be some minor inconvenience?

[Sougen]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

If you want a Cthulu style San scheme, then how about this:

 

5th Ed style -

 

SAN Reserve = INT + EGO

SAN = SAN Reserve / 2.

Create a normal Char roll at 9 + (SAN/5)

 

Various things can trigger the roll. If you pass a role, nothing happens. If you fail, every point you fail buy deducts from your SAN reserve (thus affecting your stats going down). If you reach 0 SAN Reserve, you suffer extreme penalties. If your SAN Reserve ever reaches -1*SAN Reserve, you go fully insane with no recovery.

 

Every week or so, you get a SAN RECovery equal to your SAN Reserve / 10. Also, you can give chances for Heroes to recover SAN when they roll; for every 2pts they pass a check by, they get 1 SAN Reserve point back.

 

This scheme gives you a mechanic for rolling a "san check". That san check can have the penalties you deem fit for it. It also gives you a mechanic for measuring and tracking long term SAN loss. And if you are in a Cthulu style game, the opportunities to lose SAN are large or often enough to actually be a threat.

 

Under Sixth Ed, you can do all this as individual stats that aren't calculated based on each other. One could more easily have a high check with a low reserve and vice versa.

 

Both plans, especially the sixth Ed, require that you put a point value to everything so that the PCs can adjust accordingly. What exactly those costs will be is a little subjective as each GM and game is different.

 

Hope that helps out.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

Maybe EGO + PRE, rather than INT + EGO, for strength of will? If anything, INT should impact SAN negatively - the more you understand, the more strain your mind is placed under!

[Sougen]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

That sounds good, too. I went with EGO for obvious reasons. I went with INT because I thought it could help in the rationalization of the world around you. The ability not only to observe but to adapt to the truths. I see PRE, however, as your ability to force yourself onto the world. IT make sense to me in as a issues of re-asserting yourself on yourself. Either is good, though.

 

Also, in the 6th ed model, this issue is moot.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

It depends on how you want SAN to work. Basing it on existing stats would be fine, if inconsistent with the removal of figured characteristics, or you could have a completely separate SAN stat.

 

For that matter, you could build a separate SAN combat system, with its own OCV, DCV, stat to measure being Stunned (shock?), KO'd (temporary insanity?) and "killed" (permanent insanity). Depends how complicated you want to make it.

[steriaca]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

I was thinking of a more Cathuluian version of SAN.

[Sougen]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

It depends on how you want SAN to work. Basing it on existing stats would be fine, if inconsistent with the removal of figured characteristics, or you could have a completely separate SAN stat.

 

For that matter, you could build a separate SAN combat system, with its own OCV, DCV, stat to measure being Stunned (shock?), KO'd (temporary insanity?) and "killed" (permanent insanity). Depends how complicated you want to make it.

 

Indeed, one can make it much more complicated by developing a rigorous combat system out of it. I feel like this could add to the player's since of involvement and drama but also feel that it would likely cause confusion and needless disruption. The trade off on a good combat system would be there, but it would be a matter of whether or not one values the trade.

 

I think that for me, and for games I'd run with SAN, that a simple SAN check system would add in the flavor of Cthulu horror without being overly complicated.

[Dino]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

I've been thinking of writing it up as a mental Transform: sane person to person with severe psychological complications. Maybe with partial effect, so you could acquire temporary disads along the way.

[Lethosos]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

Suggestion: a SAN pool (based off END Pool, so you can do recovery per week/roll,) with EGO as an Activation roll to avoid SAN loss and PRE used as a factor in Mental Defense to reduce said SAN loss.

[Ndreare]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

We have always treated EGO and DMCV as the relevent stats. If the monster/horrific sight makes a presense attack and punches through then for every 10 points of effect inflicted the character gains 1 point in psych lim. They can buy them off later.

[Midas]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

I've been thinking of writing it up as a mental Transform: sane person to person with severe psychological complications. Maybe with partial effect' date=' so you could acquire temporary disads along the way.[/quote']

 

This is how I would have done it. Somewhat in the manner of acquired in game hunteds, whenever a character found a SAN reducing event, he would take one or more points of Psy crock complications. When it added up to five, he would get a mild, uncommon, 8- check. When it went up to 10, it would become more effective. OTOH, in game he could do SAN gaining things (defeat the monster, punch the really annoying NPC, whatever*). If the character took so many SAN hits that he became unplayable, then it's off to Arkham Asylum for the duration.

 

*Is selling your rebellious teenagers to the Gypsies a SAN gaining act, or a symptom of your SAN loss?

[dmjalund]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

the gypsies lose SAN in the transaction?

[Midas]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

the gypsies lose SAN in the transaction?

 

It's a cruel choice. Either take a SAN hit, or pay the parents to keep them.

[steriaca]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

I'm still pondering exactly how the amount of starting SAN should be set? Do you think 10 would be a good starting point, or 20? I think we can all agree on a 1 Charater Point per +1 in SAN. SAN itself has no roll (to make a SAN Check, roll EGO). At -1 SAN, you have to roll a SAN Check to 'act normal', at -1 to the EGO Roll. This gets worse, as the roll penatly is always equal to the negitives on SAN. At negative your original SAN, this becomes an 'imposable task' (which means the GM is free to add even more penatlies to the roll).

 

Curring SAN is simple, as you regain 1 point per day for each day your mind rests (that is, dosen't think of or is exposed to how the universe realy works or things which you realy should not think about). But like BODY, this 'home healing' is imposable at negative SAN. Only a profesional (a psychietrist) can heal SAN at this level. At the negative SAN level, the charater gains an extra and perament Psychological Complication for free.

 

What can cause SAN loss? In some Horror Hero campains, magic spells can (Side Effect, SAN Damage, Always Happens). Seeing horable sites also counts (the half eaten body of your best friend, for example). PRE Attacks from THINGS FROM THE OTHER WORLD also counts. Also, contact with 'Alien' class of minds.

 

I'm powndering if we need Sanity Attack and Sanity Defence in this type of campain, as powers.

[Christopher]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

I know taht Shadow hunter (Warhammer 40k Inquistion RPG) assumes that having a high Insanity score also makes you immune to lesser horrors. So anything based on the amount of Insanity Complcaitions you have would help (how about 1 per 5 points worth of Complcations?)

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

Sanity, as defined by wiki, is a measure of the "soundness, rationality and healthiness of the human mind. A person is sane if they are rational." Legally, it means that someone is of sound mind and can bear responsibility for their actionss. As the article notes, someone can have a mental illness and still be sane.

 

Insanity is, via wiki again, "a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns." Most apropos is any kind of psychosis, temporary or permanent. This can include schizophrenia and schizoaffective disorders, bipolar I disorder(aka severe manic depression), transient psychotic disorder, delusional disorder, chronic hallucinatory psychosis, paranoid/schizoid/borderline personality disorders(when under stress), severe major depression, induced delusional disorder, PTSD and sometimes even OCD. All of these conditions can be treated via medication(typically anti-psychotics, and possibly anti-anxiety meds for stress/anxiety disorders, sometimes anti-depressants or anti-convulsants for bipolar) and therapy(cognitive behavior therapy and family therapy). Assume that, for characters whose SAN remains above 0, they will recover about 1 point of SAN per week of rest. If they are receiving outpatient therapy once a week, double that rate. If they are taking meds, add another 1 point of SAN per week. If they are being treated at a facility, it might be reasonable to assume they can recover from most destabilizing events in about a month's time. If the stimulus actually drove them temporarily insane, however, it might take as long as 3 months(90 days is a long stay at an inpatient facility).

 

Failing a SAN check would mean that the character responds irrationally to the stimulus. It might also, depending on what triggered the SAN check, result in a temporary loss of SAN points.

[torchwolf]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

Link to a previous discussion of using SAN under 6E:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/75387-Sanity

 

As Lord Liaden pointed out there, 6E2 page 262 suggests a method of handling "Hero SAN" in Horror Hero (similarly to the Call of Cthulhu SAN).

[Gnaskar]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

Copied directly out of the Campaign Handbook, here are the rules I use for sanity in my sci-fi horror campaign. They have proven to be brutal whenever the players come across a particularly horrible monstrosity, but are otherwise kind enough to only slowly drive characters insane.

 

I use one or two d6 sanity attacks for mildly disturbing events, three to five for "typical" horrors (things that make the players visibly disturbed when I describe them), six to seven on the really bad stuff.

 

Sanity

 

In addition to the common characteristics the campaign uses three new ones. Normality (NOR) uses Ego’s cost structure and represents how well in tune the character is with society. At Normality 0 the character is essentially a sociopath, and not playable. Normality Defense (ND) uses Energy Defense’s cost structure (including resistant and hardened options) and represents the character’s ability to cope with things that are just fundamentally wrong. A high ND character (6-9) is a jaded veteran, while a low ND character (1-3) is timid and/or squeamish. Sanity (SAN) uses Stun’s point structure and protects the character from going insane the same way Stun protects him from going unconscious.

[TABLE=width: 615]

[TR]

[TD]Characteristic[/TD]

[TD]Weak[/TD]

[TD]Challenged[/TD]

[TD]Average[/TD]

[TD]Skilled[/TD]

[TD]Competent[/TD]

[TD]Legendary[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]NOR[/TD]

[TD]1-2[/TD]

[TD]3-7[/TD]

[TD]8-10t[/TD]

[TD]11-13[/TD]

[TD]14-19[/TD]

[TD]20+[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Examples[/TD]

[TD]Borderline psychopaths[/TD]

[TD]Necrahlyte cultist, Most 13 year olds[/TD]

[TD]Average person[/TD]

[TD]Office Workers[/TD]

[TD]Never been outside the habitat[/TD]

[TD]Your inquisitorial contact[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]SAN[/TD]

[TD]1-5[/TD]

[TD]6-15[/TD]

[TD]17-25[/TD]

[TD]26-35[/TD]

[TD]36-50[/TD]

[TD]51+[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Examples[/TD]

[TD]infants, Deadpool[/TD]

[TD]Shell Shocked[/TD]

[TD]Average person[/TD]

[TD]Veteran Cop[/TD]

[TD]Elite Soldier[/TD]

[TD]Eliezer Yudkowsky[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]ND[/TD]

[TD]0-1[/TD]

[TD]1-2[/TD]

[TD]3-4[/TD]

[TD]5-6[/TD]

[TD]7-10[/TD]

[TD]11+[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Examples[/TD]

[TD]infants[/TD]

[TD]EEEK! A mouse![/TD]

[TD]Average person[/TD]

[TD]Trained Cop[/TD]

[TD]Combat Veteran[/TD]

[TD]Batman[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Taking a Sanity Hit

 

When something unspeakable jumps out at you, you first roll normality. Each point you succeed by is a dice less of damage and success is another dice automatically removed. To put it another way, succeeding exactly is one less die total and succeeding by 3 is four less die.

Whatever damage remains is applied against your Normality Defense, and then your NOR and SAN as like with normal attacks.

Going Into Shock

 

A character who suffers more SAN loss than he has NOR remaining (after the attack) is in Shock. When the character goes into Shock the player may chose to have the character flee, fight in a frenzy, or cower. This effect lasts until a successful NOR or EGO roll.

Running out of Sanity

 

When the character finds himself at negative SAN he becomes a gibbering wreck. Whether he curls up into a ball, hides in a corner, or starts unloading his gun at the nearest horror while screaming incoherently is up to the player and the situation, but in any case the character isn't going to be very coherent for a while. He then has the make EGO rolls to do anything other than flee, fight in a frenzy, or cower, and to change between these three responses, until his SAN is returned to positive. A successful PS: Councilor roll (with a penalty of -1 for every two points beneath 0 the character's SAN is) taking one minute can get him coherent again. He can still not be called normal by any stretch of the term, but can at least follow instructions and be convinced to have emergency therapy. His SAN is then reset to 0.

After recovering to positive SAN, the character must make a NOR roll with a bonus as though assisted by the PS: Councilor roll that helped him recover to avoid permanent harm from the experience. Failing gives him a new Complication related to what drove him over the edge, or worsens an existing one by 5 points.

Regaining SAN/NOR

 

Lost Sanity and Normality can be regained with careful counseling and down time. A successful PS: Councilor roll made within a day of receiving SAN loss recovers 1d6 + degrees of success SAN points (up to the total lost within the last 24 hours). Success also cures 1 NOR damage. This represents grief counseling, venting, or other psychological treatments, and takes an hour (only one attempt may be made per person in a given 24 hour period). Through organized group therapy, a Councilor can help up to five people recover at once this way. Note: providing therapy deals 1 SAN point of damage to the Councilor whether successful or not. This is why every psychologist schedules regular trips to another psychologist.

After the initial shock has died down and the horror has been imbedded in the person’s soul, it is a lot harder to recover. Each week of successful therapy (requiring a PS: Councilor roll for the therapist and a NOR roll for the subject) heals 1d6 SAN and the normal BODY damage as NOR.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

First, you have to get everyone to agree everyone to agree with the terms regarding sanity. This is called the Sanity Clause, but if your players are to old to believe in Sanity Clause, you may have trouble.

[dmjalund]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

but there ain't no Sanity Clause

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

I have never really felt the need for a SAN system but, if I did, I would try to work with what we have rather than come up with something new. After all, you can do pretty much anything with Hero.

 

There are a number of possibilities.

 

1. Use the PRE attack system. Nasty stuff is built as a PRE attack (for 'beings') or a PRE drain/suppress (for environments). PRE attacks are far too woolly for my liking, but they could work for insanity. They even contain a sort of built in self limiter in that repeated applications of the same PRE atatck are less effective.

2. If using magic makes you go mad, use side effects (to add complications/drain PRE).

3. Try Transform v EGO attacks to turn someone from a sane person to an insane person (insanity can be built by adding Complications at an appropriate level). The same transformation may include some PRE defence, making the insane less easy to further shock.

4. Use cumulative Mind Control to make people act weird, or a combination of MC and EGO Drain/suppress.

 

All of those things have existing rules and existing ways to recover, which is nice. It still does not mean I am a fan of the PRE attack mechanic though.

 

NB I suspect that a lot of 'dyed in the wool' herophiles will be quite resistant to a SAN system as the essence of it is that it takes a degree of control from the character creator, and a lot of us are fairly strange about character rights management (CRM) anyway. You have got a better chance of sliding it past if you do use existing mechanics, IMO.

 

The best sanity system I have ever seen was in a game written by Greg Stoltze called Unknown Armies. Fan-bloody-tastic stuff. Basically you had a number of areas where your sanity may be tested, and you may be strong in some and not in others. you could also become 'hardened' in some areas, which makes you less vulnerable BUT less caring.

 

I can not remember exactly what areas the system covered (I will see if I can find the book later). Actually, I have the web: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_Armies

 

You have 5 madness meters:

• Violence - Represents your character's reaction to violent acts
  
• Unnatural - Represents your character's reaction to the unnatural
  
• Helplessness - Represents your character's reaction in helpless situations
  
• Isolation - Represents your character's reaction in periods of isolation/loneliness
  
• Self - Represents your character's ability to deal with issues relating to identity
  

 

You have to define 3 stimulii for each: Fear, Rage and Nobility, so for example, one character's Violence meter might run something like:

 

Fear - being burned

Rage - bullies

Nobility - domestic violence victims

 

Basically you are particularly vulnerable to psychological effects from being exposed to or threatened with fire (think The Hound from Game of thrones), however you hate people using superior strength or force against the waek and this makes you angry, whereas you will go out of your way to help and protect people who have been the victims of domestic violence (perhaps your dad killed your mum and then tried to kill himeslf and you by burning the house down). The point is that it gives the player a lot more control over what triggers madness and gives the GM some interesting plot hooks. If someone tries to bully you then you get angry (which, at an extreme, can be madness - you might beat a bully to death), whereas you might be unusually sympathetic to a villain if you find out that their personality was shaped by being the victim of domestic violence. However, despite the fact that you are normally a tough, is someone threatens you with a blow torch you are likely to cower back, or run away.

 

The level of your sanity in each area determines what sort of 'shock' you can withstand. If you overcome shocks to your sanity (or fail to) then you can become hardened in that area - becoming even more resistant but less caring - it simply does not mean as much to you. For example you might still feel teh urge to help victims of domestic violence BUT if you find out that they have been 'complicit' - for instance constantly going back to an abusive partner - you might spurn them, your sympathy turning to contempt.

 

The thing is that it is easy enough to come up with some sort of sanity system but it is really nice to have that system actually suggest ways in which your madnes (or personality, as I prefer to call it in my case) manifests.

 

Your 'madness' can give you penalties or bonuses. For example if you need to break out of a locked room to avoid a fire you might get a bonus to your EGO roll to push your strength, whereas if you are being tortured by a Nazi with a lit cigarette you might freak out and break down much quicker than you normally would.

 

Anyway, hope some of that is helpful.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The Sanity Stat

 

Hmm. Thinking about it the Fear/Rage/Nobility does not apply to every area of sanity, it just applies once (in the example above, it just 'applies' - not specifically to Violence - so, for instance, if there was a person who had 'locked-in syndrome' (which would be isolation based) as a result of DV, you would still go out of your way to help them.

 

It is a sort of very defined 'Psychological Complication' system.

 

Damn. now I've thought of something. Be with you shortly...