Sign Language

[mayapuppies]

Too much?

Language: Neb Sign Language (completely fluent) (3 Active Points); Gestures, Requires Gestures throughout (-1/2), Requires Light To Use (-1/4)

[Manic Typist]

Re: Sign Language

 

Theoretically, couldn't they communicate in the dark still, as long as they felt the signs being used, and took turns? It would not be nearly as efficient, but it's better than I could do if I was in complete darkness and couldn't speak....

[mayapuppies]

Re: Sign Language

 

Hm, true.

[Arc Esu]

Re: Sign Language

 

Applying gestures to sign language makes as much sense as applying incantations to spoken language. Which is to say, not much. I wouldn't allow it in my game, as it is an obvious munchkin tactic.

[Sougen]

Re: Sign Language

 

I have the same feeling about apply gestures and not usable in the dark. There are generally certain limitations on language that we just accept as 'standards' and not worthy of price reduction. Spoken language can't be done in vacuum or in truly loud places. Do we discount it for that? No, we just realize that is the nature of the beast. Likewise, we don't require incantations for it either. We just accept that they can't talk while performing incantations.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sign Language

 

I can see an argument for a -1/4 Limitation since Sign Language requires use of Hands to 'transmit' and Eyes to 'receive'. Yes, I understand that appears to be equivalent to voice and hearing but neither of those requires hands the way Sign Language does to send or 'transmit'.

[Christopher]

Re: Sign Language

 

I can see an argument for a -1/4 Limitation since Sign Language requires use of Hands to 'transmit' and Eyes to 'receive'. Yes' date=' I understand that appears to be equivalent to voice and hearing but neither of those requires hands the way Sign Language does to send or 'transmit'.[/quote']

I think you talk about a variation of the "Affected as Additional Sense group" Limitation for senses here. Like you can't use a normal radio without hearing and radio group.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Sign Language

 

I think calling it an "obviously munchkin build" is way too harsh. You realize they would be unable to use weapons or defend themselves and talk athe same time. That being said, -1/4 seems about right to me.

[Christopher]

Re: Sign Language

 

I think calling it an "obviously munchkin build" is way too harsh. You realize they would be unable to use weapons or defend themselves and talk athe same time. That being said' date=' -1/4 seems about right to me.[/quote']

-1/4 only needs one hand and it can be the off hand.

[gojira]

Re: Sign Language

 

I'd probably just call it a "language" just like any other, and use the language table for point costs. "Gestures" replaces "incantations" and call it a day. Darkness isn't really much different than speach being unable to be heard in a loud environment, or across a vacuum, etc.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Sign Language

 

In my experience being in the dark is much more common than being somewhere so loud you can't hear, let alone in a vaccuum. Plus I'm pretty sure this is for a fantasy game, which I would think would make it mor common still.

[Escafarc]

Re: Sign Language

 

In my fantasy game Sign was +1 Adder to Thieve's Cant. I also had Fans and Flowers as +1 adders to various "High" versions of languages.

[pinecone]

Re: Sign Language

 

Too much?

 

I'd call Most sign lang.s an Expanded Literacy 1 pt...you don't know a new lang...just a new "alphabet"....

[Sougen]

Re: Sign Language

 

I'd call Most sign lang.s an Expanded Literacy 1 pt...you don't know a new lang...just a new "alphabet"....

 

To the best of my knowledge, you also know a new set of grammar too. I could be wrong (never studied sign lang), but to the best of my knowledge, American sign is as distinct from American English as English is from Spanish. Some things are indeed shared but the syntactic, morphological, and of course phonological rules are distinct and different.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Sign Language

 

I did take one semester of American Sign Language (ASL). The teacher was from Australia and was partially deaf. She learned ASL as a second language. Australian Sign Language is an offshoot of British Sign Language. American (ASL) is actually an offshoot of French Sign Language. FSL and BSL differ greatly in syntax as well as the number of hands used for fingerspelling. Basically, there are almost as many different sign languages throughout the world as there are spoken ones.

[Vondy]

Re: Sign Language

 

I think the various Sign Languages should be treated as no different than any other language skill. I also agree with the notion that gestures is apropos. If you gag a hearing person their languages "don't work," either. And, yet, they get no cost break for it.

[Vondy]

Re: Sign Language

 

I'd call Most sign lang.s an Expanded Literacy 1 pt...you don't know a new lang...just a new "alphabet"....

 

If all you are doing is the letter signs, this is correct. But, fluency in sign language requires learning new grammar, syntax and words (gestures) for things. There is also an interpretive level in terms of facial expression and body language (and deaf culture to a certain extent) if you want to reach a complete or idiomatic level of fluency.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Sign Language

 

There are real advantages to sign language versus spoken language which IMO would negate any drawbacks in comparison. Covertness, for one. Sign can be used in circumstances when you don't want to be overheard, or when making noise would give away your position to an enemy. It also works in environments where speech is impossible, such as underwater, in the vacuum of space, or where there's a lot of noise.

[pinecone]

Re: Sign Language

 

If all you are doing is the letter signs' date=' this is correct. But, fluency in sign language requires learning new grammar, syntax and words (gestures) for things. There is also an interpretive level in terms of facial expression and body language (and deaf culture to a certain extent) if you want to reach a complete or idiomatic level of fluency.[/quote']

 

And yet you still "speak" your native tongue in what ever sign lang you use....Infantry squads use sign language, and its pretty simple stuff. And its not "only" for covert actions...battle spaces get kinda noisy...

 

I guess the final question is how long does it take to learn? One semester? If so its Waay easier that a "full" language, most folks think years to be more likely....I learned Czech in One year...but that was full imersion....

[mhd]

Re: Sign Language

 

And yet you still "speak" your native tongue in what ever sign lang you use....

 

What's the native tongue of someone born deaf? As far as I know, something like ASL isn't just a "digital" representation of English.

 

Here's an interesting, somewhat related Straight Dope article.

[Lucius]

Re: Sign Language

 

Applying gestures to sign language makes as much sense as applying incantations to spoken language. Which is to say' date=' not much.[/quote']

 

Yeah, what he said.

 

I'd call Most sign lang.s an Expanded Literacy 1 pt...you don't know a new lang...just a new "alphabet"....

 

Well, you can call it that, but that just shows that you know about "fingerspelling" (which uses certain hand positions as code for letters) but you actually don't know what sign language is.

 

To the best of my knowledge' date=' you also know a new set of grammar too. I could be wrong (never studied sign lang), but to the best of my knowledge, American sign is as distinct from American English as English is from Spanish. Some things are indeed shared but the syntactic, morphological, and of course phonological rules are distinct and different.[/quote']

 

I have studied sign language. You're not wrong.

 

And yet you still "speak" your native tongue in what ever sign lang you use....

 

No, you don't.

 

First of all, for some people, sign language IS their native language.

 

Second of all, if a person who is a native speaker of, say, English, who learns sign language and uses it, is NOT "speaking their native tongue in whatever sign language they use." They are speaking, or rather signing, a sign language; they are not speaking English with their hands.

 

Infantry squads use sign language' date=' and its pretty simple stuff[/quote']

 

Yes, what infantry uses is pretty simple stuff. No, it is not sign language.

 

I guess the final question is how long does it take to learn?

 

About as long as any other language.

 

One semester?

 

If you could learn more than a very rudimentary form of sign language in one semester, you'd have a point.

You can't, so you don't.

 

Sure, you can take a semester of sign language. You can take a semester of Spanish or Latin or Czech too, and you'd learn something, but you probably won't master any of these languages in so short a time.

 

If so its Waay easier that a "full" language' date=' most folks fink yaers to be more likely....I learned Czech in One year...but that was full imersion....[/quote']

 

Try learning sign language. Please. Not just fingerspelling, go take a class in actual American Sign Language. Then tell me if you still think it's "waaay easier" or not a "full" language.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is laughing at both ends

[pinecone]

Re: Sign Language

 

Yeah, what he said.

 

 

 

Well, you can call it that, but that just shows that you know about "fingerspelling" (which uses certain hand positions as code for letters) but you actually don't know what sign language is.

 

 

 

I have studied sign language. You're not wrong.

 

 

 

No, you don't.

 

First of all, for some people, sign language IS their native language.

 

Second of all, if a person who is a native speaker of, say, English, who learns sign language and uses it, is NOT "speaking their native tongue in whatever sign language they use." They are speaking, or rather signing, a sign language; they are not speaking English with their hands.

 

 

 

Yes, what infantry uses is pretty simple stuff. No, it is not sign language.

 

 

 

About as long as any other language.

 

 

 

If you could learn more than a very rudimentary form of sign language in one semester, you'd have a point.

You can't, so you don't.

 

Sure, you can take a semester of sign language. You can take a semester of Spanish or Latin or Czech too, and you'd learn something, but you probably won't master any of these languages in so short a time.

 

 

 

Try learning sign language. Please. Not just fingerspelling, go take a class in actual American Sign Language. Then tell me if you still think it's "waaay easier" or not a "full" language.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is laughing at both ends

 

 

Ok, and while I do teach ASL to a french person who does not speak english, and successfully comunicate, after all you both share the same language. Too me, not knowing all the fine details, it sound like claiming that some one who speaks Japanese can communicate with someone who speaks Chinese because the Characters in the alphabet are the "same".

 

If you feel its a full lang. (and it seems you do...) How many points would you charge? I took one semester of German and was able to communicate with, and give complex directions to a German tourist who was lost. Was I a master of the lang.? No, but I could get by just fine....what does that prove? That I have a facility with Languages? Still not knowing what that says....

[Lucius]

Re: Sign Language

 

Ok' date=' and while I do teach ASL to a french person who does not speak english, and successfully comunicate, after all you both share the same language. Too me, not knowing all the fine details, it sound like claiming that some one who speaks Japanese can communicate with someone who speaks Chinese because the Characters in the alphabet are the "same".[/quote']

 

Okay, I'm honestly not sure what you're saying here. Are you saying that you have taught, or are in the process of teaching, ASL to a French person?

 

And if somoene who speaks Japanese and someone who speaks Chinese both learned ASL, then yes, they could communicate with one another, just as they could if both learned Portugese.

 

If you feel its a full lang. (and it seems you do...)

 

It's not my personal, idiosyncratic opinion under discussion. Ask a linguist.

 

How many points would you charge?

 

Same as any other language.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Learning the Backandforthtrian dialect of the Palindromedary Tongue

[Sougen]

Re: Sign Language

 

If you feel its a full lang. (and it seems you do...) How many points would you charge? I took one semester of German and was able to communicate with' date=' and give complex directions to a German tourist who was lost. Was I a master of the lang.? No, but I could get by just fine....what does that prove? That I have a facility with Languages? Still not knowing what that says....[/quote']

 

Yeah, I am going with Lucius, Sign language (and each variation of them) are separate and full languages. They should be bought as such. There is no particularly good reason for them to be discounted more than any other language is. Now, if you have intimate knowledge of the grammar of the sign in question (syntax, morphology, etc), and you know that it parallels another language, I can see giving discounts to learners who already have high command of the language in question. But that would require a lot of intimate knowledge on the language in question. It is also a reason why I don't really like the "family tree" style of language discounting that HERO has because it forgets that just because two languages have historical connection does not mean they are relatively close to each other in grammar (syntax, morphology, phonetics, etc). And likewise, it completely ignores the fact that just because two languages are not daughter / mother or sister languages doesn't mean they can't share large amounts of familiarity. Japanese and Korean are largely alike in syntax and morphology - just phonetics and lexicon are truly different but they are each completely independent languages with no sisterhood or other such connection. Likewise, English and Sanskrit are sister languages but share nothing in common.

 

As for your ability to speak German, if you found yourself being able to fluidly communicate in German after only a semester of study, I would have suggested continued study. People with that kind of raw ability are few and far between and it could have been something to make a career of. Now, if per chance what you mean is that Germans were able to make sense of your only mildly coherent expressions, that is another thing. There is a wealth of difference between ordering off a menu and holding an actual conversation. I, now a year after I did my one year of Japanese could probably still order off a menu and, if the speaker was slow enough, understand and give directions. I can not under any circumstances read even a children's book. At least not without a bilingual dictionary and a lot of time.

[Vondy]

Re: Sign Language

 

And yet you still "speak" your native tongue in what ever sign lang you use....

 

Infantry squads use a crude and rudimentary set of hand-signs that doesn't come remotely close to encapsulating speech, let alone a robust language. Assorted sign-languages are robust and eloquent languages that serve as a parallel mode of expression equal to the spoken word.

 

No, you don't. Sign language is, generally speaking, a deaf person's native language. What is more, if by "speaking English" you mean, English with an entirely different vocabulary for every word, plus learning your strange mouth-movement if they want to read language and/or speak audibly, sure.

 

Infantry squads use sign language' date=' and its pretty simple stuff. And its not "only" for covert actions...battle spaces get kinda noisy... [/quote']

 

I guess the final question is how long does it take to learn? One semester? If so its Waay easier that a "full" language' date=' most folks think years to be more likely....I learned Czech in One year...but that was full imersion....[/quote']

 

It takes years to become fully fluent in a given sign language. As long as it takes to learn to speak a language. You can learn rudimentary sign language in a semester, but you won't be any better at it than you would be after a semester of a spoken language that you hadn't spoken before taking a semester, either.

 

Again, sign languages have their own grammar, syntax, and vocabularies that run parallel to the spoken languages of the culture they exist in. They are languages in their own right.