Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

[Xavier Onassiss]

This looks interesting. Actually, "interesting" might be an understatement, so I'll be watching this story.

 

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2012-04-29/peak-oil-crisis-quantum-fusion-hypothesis

 

http://www.brillouinenergy.com/

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Wow. Who'd a thunk it?

very cool

[Guest dr. strangelove]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

God knows we need something like this now. My one concern (asides from oil corporations quietly snuffing it out.) id that it might lead to a shortage of palladium and there might not be ewnough of it to make this viable.

 

Then again, people are seriously talking about mining asteroids now, and there is likely to be fair amounts of palladium in some of them, so who knows?

 

An interesting note here is that the process seems to produce helium as a byproduct, and I've heard that helium is becoming more scarce as it's used, raises to the edge of the atmosphere and essentially disappears as far as being usable by people goes.

 

All in all, if this works it could be absolutely great news in that it could solve a lot of energy issues, get us off fossil fuel power, spur a real interest in space exploration for mining palladium (Is it available on the moon?) and even create renewable helium supplies.

 

Sounds too good to be true, I'm afraid.

[Christopher]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

God knows we need something like this now. My one concern (asides from oil corporations quietly snuffing it out.) id that it might lead to a shortage of palladium and there might not be ewnough of it to make this viable.

But isn't it getting us on a different limited Fuel - Water?

 

When we asume it works out (and propably with better efficiency than current tech), then we will "burn" a lot of water on this.

 

Also while the CO² bilance is good, CO² isn't the only Greenhouse Gas. Producing millions of tons of helium per year or even day could have repecussion we have no idea of yet.

 

It would be fine if it works out, but it is not really a Miracle Source.

[Sundog]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Water isn't really a limited fuel. Besides the gigalitres of water on Earth, there are petalitres (or possibly even more absurd numbers) of easily accessible water in the outer solar system. By the time water use for this purpose (which does not require our limited stocks of potable water) becomes a concern on earth, quantities of ridiculous level will be available to us.

[McCoy]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

No, this is cold fusion. I'll wait for peer revue.

 

What seems to be happening in this new kind of fusion is that when hydrogen is "loaded" into nickel or palladium and subjected to the proper kind of an electromagnetic pulse, the hydrogen nucleus which is a positively charged proton acquires an electron which turns it into a low energy free neutron. Now a low energy free neutron is something very nice to have for it quickly combines with other protons to form deuterium, tritium and finally quadrium. The quadrium only lasts for an instant before undergoing a process called beta decay turning it into helium. This is where Einstein and E = MC2 comes in. The beta decay of quadrium results in a loss of mass which is turned into heat. If all this pans out as claimed, it could be one of the most important secrets of nature that has ever been discovered, for our energy problems are over.

So you start with 4 hydrogen atoms, turn 3 of them into neutrons, they form a "quadrium" atom, which spontaneously deteriorates into helium, and this results in a net loss of mass? I need to see the math.

 

Easily testable hypothesis, in addition to heat this should be generating detectable amounts of deuterium, tritium, and helium. Where are they?

[Barwickian]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

I lack the physics background to make a useful comment. But I eagerly await the input from those who do.

 

McCoy has started it...

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Speaking as a guy with a physics degree, I have to say that I'm underwhelmed. That being said, my transcript offers little reason for you to trust me on that one.

 

Speaking as a historian of technology, all I can say is: "pump and dump."

[Christopher]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

No' date=' this is cold fusion. I'll wait for peer revue.[/quote']

Yes, it is likely the Physics behind cold Fusion. Except having nothing to do with Fusion.

 

Apparently the guys who brought Cold Fusion up randomly managed to get just the right combination fo Factors to do it. But they had no way to replicate it or understand what had happened.

 

So you start with 4 hydrogen atoms' date=' turn 3 of them into neutrons, they form a "quadrium" atom, which spontaneously deteriorates into helium, and this results in a net [i']loss[/i] of mass? I need to see the math.

 

Easily testable hypothesis, in addition to heat this should be generating detectable amounts of deuterium, tritium, and helium. Where are they?

I think the formula for Neutron was 2 Elektrons + 1 Protons + some Energy.

But they use something called low energy free neutron, wich is only 1 Elektron, 1 Proton.

1 Hydrogen (Protenium) Atom has 1 Elektron and 1 Proton, no Neutron.

3 Provide the material for the three free LE Neutrons, wich are caught by the fourth.

1 Hydrogen Atom + 3 Neutrons form the incredibly unstable Hydrogen Isotope Quadrium.

1 Quadrium decays into Helium + Energy

 

So you take 8 Elektrons, 4 Protons and some energy and end up with Helium 3 (2 Electrons, 2 Protons, 1 Neutron) or Helium 4 (2 Electrons, 2 Protons, 2 Neutrons) plus energy.

 

Hydrogen has a weight of 1.008.

Helium one of 4.003.

When you transform 4 hydrogen into one Helium Atom, the mass defect is 0.0029.

And whereever there is a mass defect, there is Energy and vice versa.

[McCoy]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Water isn't really a limited fuel. Besides the gigalitres of water on Earth' date=' there are [i']petalitres[/i] (or possibly even more absurd numbers) of easily accessible water in the outer solar system. By the time water use for this purpose (which does not require our limited stocks of potable water) becomes a concern on earth, quantities of ridiculous level will be available to us.

BTW, if this works, I said IF, it is not water that is being consumed, it is hydrogen. Should, in principle, work just as well with ammonia, methane, or for that matter diatomic hydrogen.

[Christopher]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

BTW' date=' if this works, I said [b']IF[/b], it is not water that is being consumed, it is hydrogen. Should, in principle, work just as well with ammonia, methane, or for that matter diatomic hydrogen.

Unforutnately, most hydrogen tends to be caught up in water on a rather hot places.

 

And I doubt it works with anything else. It sound like on of these things only Protenium is capable of doing. After all it is the only known (stable) Isotope without any Neutron.

[McCoy]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

I think the formula for Neutron was 2 Elektrons + 1 Protons + some Energy.

But they use something called low energy free neutron, wich is only 1 Elektron, 1 Proton.

1 Hydrogen (Protenium) Atom has 1 Elektron and 1 Proton, no Neutron.

3 Provide the material for the three free LE Neutrons, wich are caught by the fourth.

1 Hydrogen Atom + 3 Neutrons form the incredibly unstable Hydrogen Isotope Quadrium.

1 Quadrium decays into Helium + Energy

 

So you take 8 Elektrons, 4 Protons and some energy and end up with Helium 3 (2 Electrons, 2 Protons, 1 Neutron) or Helium 4 (2 Electrons, 2 Protons, 2 Neutrons) plus energy.

 

Hydrogen has a weight of 1.008.

Helium one of 4.003.

When you transform 4 hydrogen into one Helium Atom, the mass defect is 0.0029.

And whereever there is a mass defect, there is Energy and vice versa.

Believe a neutron, high or low energy, is 1 proton plus 1 electron. If it was one proton and two electrons, it would have a net negative charge.

 

So the process splits hydrogen atoms out of water molecules (takes energy). Then turns a neutral hydrogen atom (1 proton plus 1 electron) into a neutron, without exposing it to forces on the order of magnitude of the gravity of a neutron star.

 

Being a low energy (which in this case means "not fast moving") neutron it is "captured" by another hydrogen atom, creating an atom of deuterium (²H). Will admit I'm not familiar enough with free neutrons to know if that takes or releases energy, but the rule of thumb is movement toward iron (Fe) from either end of the periodic table releases energy. Maybe this is part of the energy released.

 

Anyway, then another neutron bumps into the deuterium atom and tuns it into tritium (³H); another one comes along and it becomes quadrium (⁴H). ⁴H is unstable enough it emits an electron (beta decay), turning one of the newly created neutrons back into an electron and a proton, and the quadrium into helium (⁴He). Without enough neutrons being soaked up in creating heavier isotopes of oxygen to keep the process from going past the break-even point.

 

If this even becomes a less expensive way of creating deuterium and tritium it would have commercial applications. Again, I'll wait for the peer review.

 

Unforutnately, most hydrogen tends to be caught up in water on a rather hot places.

 

And I doubt it works with anything else. It sound like on of these things only Protenium is capable of doing. After all it is the only known (stable) Isotope without any Neutron.

*shrug* On Earth, water is the most readily available source of hydrogen. If we are talking a long enough timeline that mining for extraterrestrial ices becomes cost effective, you have water (H₂O), ammonia (H₃N), or methane, (H₄C), in order of increasing abundance, and "protenium" can be extracted from all of them. Or if other elements do soak up some of the free neutrons, diatomic hydrogen (H₂) would be the most efficient choice.

[Cancer]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

I'm not convinced by the information I see presented.

[dmjalund]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

I thought cold fusion involved Deuterium

[Christopher]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

*shrug* On Earth' date=' water is the most readily available source of hydrogen.[/quote']

But as you pointed out yourself, you first need energy to get it out of the water. As I read it that was not part of thier calculation - they asumed you already have 4 Hydrogen Atoms.

 

I thought cold fusion involved Deuterium

Cold Fusion (or at least the take on it presented here) doesn't even require atomic Fusion. It's simply put, a misnomer and has realy nothing to do with Fusion.

 

They entirely sidestep the need for high presure/energy and Deuterium, by transforming hydrogen atoms into Neutrons and then letting those neutrons be captured by another hydrogen.

[Cancer]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Are 2.1 MeV gamma rays detected to prove that's what's going on?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Saying this isn't fusion is just silly.

 

From a simple google search on fusion definition:

Dictionary

Search Results

 

fu·sion

 

noun /ˈfyo͞oZHən/ 

fusions, plural

The process or result of joining two or more things together to form a single entity

 

Combining a Proton with an Electron to get a Neutron IS fusion.

It's just not necessarily HOT fusion.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

The thing I've not seen any reports on is wheter this effect is temperature dependent. That is, will it still work using hot water? Since the process only produces heat it still is just the first step towards making mechanical energy via a steam engine. What if it ONLY works at room temperatures? Pretty difficult to scale up then...

[Christopher]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Saying this isn't fusion is just silly.

 

From a simple google search on fusion definition:

 

 

Combining a Proton with an Electron to get a Neutron IS fusion.

It's just not necessarily HOT fusion.

there are a ton of meanigns for Fusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion

 

The one that maters here, is Nuclear Fusion.

That was is presented here is not Nuclear Fusion, as is explicitly stated in the text.

 

The thing I've not seen any reports on is wheter this effect is temperature dependent. That is' date=' will it still work using hot water? Since the process only produces heat it still is just the first step towards making mechanical energy via a steam engine. What if it ONLY works at room temperatures? Pretty difficult to scale up then...[/quote']

The official definition of Cold Fusion is "Nuclear Reaction at relatively low temperatures". Low compared to the Sun, or what we need for earthbound fusion (a lot more than the Sun).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Just because the established science community doesn't understand the process doesn't mean it isn't nuclear fusion. They have ascribed an overly specific definition to a generic term. That's their problem, not mine. It's the same kind of politicized nonsense that gave us Pluto the object formerly known as a planet.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

This is just like the common sfx vs. mechanic discussions we have over in the HERO system forum... except for one major difference. When building abilites with HERO Powers we usually give the final construct a simple meaningful name like "heat vision" for a Kryptonian. The Powers used to construct that ability can vary from person to person (the mechanics). Likewise, the description of what it looks like 'in game' can also vary. But the final name is still "heat vision".

 

Until the media starts using a different term (which I am willing to bet money will not happen) we should get used to the phrase 'cold fusion' if this actually develops into something truly useful.

[McCoy]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

I thought cold fusion involved Deuterium

Allegedly so does this as an intermediate step.

[Old Man]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

Until the media starts using a different term (which I am willing to bet money will not happen) we should get used to the phrase 'cold fusion' if this actually develops into something truly useful.

 

If I were one of the people working on this technology, I would be trying very, very hard to get the media to call it something else.

[McCoy]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

But as you pointed out yourself, you first need energy to get it out of the water. As I read it that was not part of thier calculation - they asumed you already have 4 Hydrogen Atoms.

 

 

Cold Fusion (or at least the take on it presented here) doesn't even require atomic Fusion. It's simply put, a misnomer and has realy nothing to do with Fusion.

 

They entirely sidestep the need for high presure/energy and Deuterium, by transforming hydrogen atoms into Neutrons and then letting those neutrons be captured by another hydrogen.

 

there are a ton of meanigns for Fusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion

 

The one that maters here, is Nuclear Fusion.

That was is presented here is not Nuclear Fusion, as is explicitly stated in the text.

 

 

The official definition of Cold Fusion is "Nuclear Reaction at relatively low temperatures". Low compared to the Sun, or what we need for earthbound fusion (a lot more than the Sun).

The claim is they start with hydrogen and end up with helium. How by any definition of the word is that not fusion?

[Cancer]

Re: Like Cold Fusion... Except It Works?

 

If I were one of the people working on this technology' date=' I would be trying very, very hard to get the media to call it something else.[/quote']

 

... especially if it boils down to the same thing in the end.