How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

[johnvalentine]

I was discussing cosmic level heroes for a possible future game in my group, and the current point total is 3k. (From what I can see, pretty bullshit, but it seems about right for cosmic heroes)

So one of the heroes discussed is supposed to be nigh indestructible, and had the following defenses (all of which are inherent)

Total Life support

75% resistant damage reduction Physical and Energy

60 resistant/120 stun PD/ED With hardened x2 and impenetrable 1.

-30 DC's Physical/Energy

100 power defense

100 mental defense

 

After looking at that, I was trying to figure out just how strong of an attack would it have to be for him to feel it?

If it's unmodified, then I need to have a blast or HA that does at least 60D6 to even reliably get through his defenses, right?

[Christopher]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

The book level for cosmic is somewhere in the 650-1000.

But 3000 is pretty much nuts. I disbelieve in Heros ability to still work at that level. Especially things like damage Reduction become too point efficient for their effect.

 

Your calculation is propably right. But let's run the numbers:

120 PD: 1d6 Blast does 3.5 STUN on average. At 35d6 a average roll does 2-3 STUN after defenses (wich is cut to 1 by the reduction)

add +30 DC/d6 to overcome DN.

So 65d6 to have a chance at an average roll.

 

For every single point that sticks (actually get's sustracted from STUN), you have to get 4 STUN behind the PD. Every 1d6 does 3.5 STUN. Add +30 d6 to get past DN.

 

If it was my game, a lot of stuff would simply be based on how weak the "normal" world is. Propably weak enough that a Atombomb could be build with 4d6-6d6 KA, Megascaled and still blow down any houses and normals. Not that hard to survive a blast, even for a 400 point Brick...

But your GM really seems to like to roll and count dice - very, very much.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

I think I'd opt for "accidentally" spilling a drink on the character sheet as opposed to trying to come up with an in-game attack that would hurt a character clearly designed to be invulnerable to everything.

[johnvalentine]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

Okay just checking.

 

I think where they got the point idea was from looking at the major villains in the champions books like Mechanon or Dr. Destroyer, who are above this cost in points.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

Did he spend several hundred of those points on Skills, Perks, and Talents too?

 

3,000 points is pretty high for PCs, Hero can scale up to that, but you are still stuck in the need to set limits, they'll just be higher, and the PCs will then start to really branch out into a wide capability range. And the Absolute Effect Rule is helpful, but really high for Mega-Cosmic (because 3k goes beyond cosmic) characters where "nigh invulnerability" is an acceptable concept.

 

At 3,000 points I would expect PCs to be in control of major resources and have Bases, Vehicles, Followers and the like all bought with points.

 

On the other hand - as long as the Player is going to cheeseball it like that: Rotten Cheese: 10D6 RKA, Continuous, 0 END, NND: Resistant Smell Flash Defense, Does Body, Area Of Effect 8 Meters, MegaArea: 1 Meter = 10 Lightyears.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

Mechanon and Dr. Destroyer are among the most powerful supers, hero or villain, on Champions Earth. If your players want all their characters to be able to take on the likes of Ultron or Darkseid single-handed, then this is the level for them. OTOH as ghost-angel points out, these characters have also sunk many of their points into abilities and resources that aren't readily combat-applicable, or don't count toward their personal power such as Followers and Bases. Almost none of them have Defenses as high as the PC you describe. You'll mostly have to custom-build opponents for them, or scale up the pregenerated villains in Champions source books, to give a whole team of such heroes suitable threats to overcome. There are few published menaces strong enough to challenge a group like that.

 

IMO a more realistic threshold would be around 1,000 Character Points, the upper range for "cosmic" PC heroes as suggested in the Champions genre book. That's the neighborhood for the mightiest NPC heroes published for the Champions Universe to date, such as the Drifter, Celestar, or Tetsuronin.

[Patriot]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

1D6 NND with the defense being "being a normal"

>Epic Cheddar off>

[Steve]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

I was discussing cosmic level heroes for a possible future game in my group, and the current point total is 3k. (From what I can see, pretty bullshit, but it seems about right for cosmic heroes)

So one of the heroes discussed is supposed to be nigh indestructible, and had the following defenses (all of which are inherent)

Total Life support

75% resistant damage reduction Physical and Energy

60 resistant/120 stun PD/ED With hardened x2 and impenetrable 1.

-30 DC's Physical/Energy

100 power defense

100 mental defense

 

After looking at that, I was trying to figure out just how strong of an attack would it have to be for him to feel it?

If it's unmodified, then I need to have a blast or HA that does at least 60D6 to even reliably get through his defenses, right?

 

One of the PCs in my Icons campaign is built as a Superman homage, and he has Damage Negation, defined as limited invulnerability. His punches have an adder to reduce Damage Negation, so he can go against other "invulnerable" sorts and not have to have enormous amounts of dice to be effective. So if you are worried about being able to hurt someone with Damage Negation, get the Reduce Negation adder. It's 2 points per level and is discussed on page 144 of 6th Edition volume 1.

[dmjalund]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

A simple way to hurt the invulnerable is to target what he cares for.

[Greywind]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

1D6 NND with the defense being "being a normal"

>Epic Cheddar off>

 

Define "normal".

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

Define "normal".

 

To start with, being built on a lot less than 3,000 CP.

[johnvalentine]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

To start with' date=' being built on a lot less than 3,000 CP. [/quote']

 

I think I'll keep that in reserve for later cheese I encounter. Good Counter-Cheese tactics are valuable.

[Lucius]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

I've built Gods with fewer points than that.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromdary wants to see them posted

[Zeropoint]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

60 resistant/120 stun PD/ED With hardened x2 and impenetrable 1.

 

I'm going to read that as 120 PD/ED of which 60 PD/ED is resistant. You also didn't specify his BODY score, so I'll assume 30, and with these assumptions, I'll give a few of my ideas for an attack that could hurt him.

 

Nothing fancy, just lots of dice:

 

For 2,475 points, you can buy a 165d6 RKA which should, on average, kill him instantly. For a more reasonable 495 points, you can buy a 33d6 RKA that will on average do 5 points of BODY to him.

 

Of course, the biggest flaw in his defenses is that he's satisfied with a piddling ONE level of "Impenetrable", and that Penetrating counters not just PD/ED and rPD/rED, but Damage Reduction as well. Unfortunately, his Damage Negation will apply here, so . . . let's go with a 15d6 RKA with Penetrating x 2. That'll cost us 450 points and do 5 points of body per hit, on average.

 

On the other hand, you could just not worry about breaching his defenses and do something else: Extradimensional Movement (Time Travel), up to 3x10^43 years, only into the future (58 base points) Usable As An Attack (+1 1/4, 130 Active points).

 

There you go, for 130 points you can send him far enough into the future that all of what we know as "matter" has evaporated through proton decay, and there is nothing left in the universe but black holes. He won't be dead, but he'll have a long, long time to regret taking that total life support package. If you're worried about him having access to black holes, you can send him 1.7x10^106 years into the future for only 232 points, and by then all the black holes will be gone, leaving a cold dark universe with nothing but a few lonely subatomic particles. There will be nothing to do, no one to interact with, and unless he's already got his own time travel powers, he's not coming back.

[johnvalentine]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

Zeropoint,

This is almost precisely what I was thinking about for methods to deal with him. And yeah... being stuck that far in the future sure sounds pretty crappy.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

The APG I has a suggested advantage for attacks, enabling them to bypass Damage Reduction. This might be appropriate for that sort of campaign setting. Similarly, spending 2 points per die enables you to negate Damage Negation.

40d6, Bypasses DR(+3/4 IIRC), Bypasses Damage Negation(+80 points), total active cost 430 points. 20 Stun straight through defenses, on average.

 

I have a 44k point writeup floating around here somewhere, as well as a 17k pointer and a 9999 pointer. The 9999 pointer is actually harder to beat than the other two, who have a variety of built in flaws enabling them to be bested by much less powerful opponents(which is as it should be, imo--otherwise there's no drama).

[Zeropoint]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

I didn't run numbers on it, but I had also thought about some kind of nasty Lovecraftian stuff built as an NND with the defense being "have an Alien class of mind".

[megaplayboy]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

To be honest, sometimes the best approach is to just have the player specify the various ways in which their invulnerability might be circumvented. They can take a few -1/4 limitations on most of their defenses to reflect some of these, or buy a variant of Vulnerability as suggested in the APG(attack results in auto-stun or auto-ko, or temporary loss of full/half power). They could have an alter ego who's much more mundane and vulnerable. Etc.

Examples:

I have a Superman meets Marty Stu type NPC who is completely invulnerable....except for surprise attacks in and out of combat, attacks with qliphothic sfx, for stunning purposes(i.e., he can still be stunned by a powerful attack, even if he technically takes no stun), and of course getting hit square on his "glass chin". He has a separate vulnerability that results in an instant KO if hit squarely on the jaw, with level of unconsciousness dependent on how much force he was hit with. So he can be taken down by surprise attacks, Lovecraftian horror-type attacks, he can be stunned by really powerful attacks, and he can be knocked out if you either roll a crit or specifically target his jaw.

Example II: A dimensional conqueror type with a vast VPP that would make a Galaxar envious. What are his flaws? He needs to be able to use his hands(gestures) to use the VPP, and if his hands are tied, he's mostly powerless. He has a fear of male bullies, stemming from childhood abuse, and if he is attacked by a powerful and imposing male brick he will take increased damage and tend to "turtle" up, at worse actually collapsing into a fetal position. Finally, he usually travels around in a giant mechanical colossus, which of course he can't take everywhere, and in which he normally can't use his VPP. Use of his VPP outside his home dimension is also very draining, and tends to hasten his need to return home.

 

There are other examples, but this is the sort of thing that helps make such mega-beings more compelling. Without his flaws and vulnerabilities, Superman is a pretty boring character, imo.

[Zeropoint]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

I think this guy is a good example of why it's pointless to try to be "invulnerable" in the Hero System. If I've read the character right and done the math right, he's spent 795 points on physical defenses alone, with another 200 on Mental Defense and Power Defense . . . and yet, there are any number of attacks built on 450-500 points (before limitations) which can hurt him.

 

Also, it looks like he forgot to take Impenetrable on his mental defense . . . a handful of dice in a Mental Blast with Penetrating should be a cheap way to take him down.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

I would hit that guy with an Autofire Ego Attack with Penetrating added. Eventually it would do enough Stun damage to take him down, depending on the Active Points of the attack.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

I think even invulnerable characters should have a Rock/Paper/Scissors aspect to them. Great vs. one thing, even vs. another, vulnerable to a third thing. Across the board invulnerability tends to be a bit boring, as noted above. I can't plan every run around kidnapping your DNPC, forcing you to solve a riddle or challenging your abillity to perform multiple feats simultaneously. At some point, there has to be someone with the ability to hurt you physically, so there's a reason you actually need teammates.

[Beast]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

This gun might work

 

These are neutron shotgun rounds and will not even be felt by your hostage: Blast 1d6, Area Of Effect (4 2m Areas; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (10 shots; +2) (30 Active Points); Attack Versus Alternate Defense (No resistant def; All Or Nothing; damage is from being slowed down by dense materials and force fields(soft armors under 6pd would be the max); -2)

 

Same effect different wording

 

These are neutron shotgun rounds and will not even be felt by your hostage: Blast 1d6, Area Of Effect (4 2m Areas; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (10 shots; +2) (30 Active Points); Attack Versus Alternate Defense (Resistant Defense is what causes the damage; All Or Nothing; damage is from being slowed down by dense materials and force fields(soft armors under 6pd would be the max); -2)

 

Targeting system: +10 to offset a specific negative OCV modifier with all attacks(for Autofire 10) (30 Active Points)

 

only 60 active points

[Christopher]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

This gun might work

 

These are neutron shotgun rounds and will not even be felt by your hostage: Blast 1d6, Area Of Effect (4 2m Areas; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Does BODY (+1), Autofire (10 shots; +2) (30 Active Points); Attack Versus Alternate Defense (No resistant def; All Or Nothing; damage is from being slowed down by dense materials and force fields(soft armors under 6pd would be the max); -2)

 

Targeting system: +10 to offset a specific negative OCV modifier with all attacks(for Autofire 10) (30 Active Points)

 

only 60 active points

Isn't "not having a specific Power" forbidden as defense for NND?

[megaplayboy]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

Well, you can always define the defense as "being magical in nature" or "possessing cosmic powers". Ergo, non-magical beings or non-cosmic beings will be hurt by this, but magical and cosmic beings are common enough that it's a valid defense.

[Beast]

Re: How powerful of an attack would it take to hurt this guy?

 

In this case

 

HAVING resistant defense is what causes the damage

By slowing down the neutron and now it's energy can interact with the target

Normally the neutron just passes through and does nothing

99.9% of the population normally does not wear or generate any resistant protection

so you have to go out of the norm to be affected

 

Isn't "not having a specific Power" forbidden as defense for NND?