Superman Averts World War II?

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

If the Germans were stop punched that early' date=' would the Hindenberg disaster have played out the same? Airships might have continued to play a significant commercial role for quite a lot longer without a very public disaster combined with the research boost the war gave aeronautics. Would possibly also have delayed the onset of the space program, once again by removing the wartime research imperative.[/quote']

It could certainly put a stop into germans plans.

The question is, is the stop enough to lead to a different Cold War?

One in wich Russia/Germany/Japan are one front?

One in wich the rest of Europe joins with America and China as counter-front?

[Clonus]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Need power level of the Superman Knockoff.....

 

~Rex

 

Able to fly at just short of the speed of sound, toss a tank, lift a destroyer, bend a battleship's main gun and "see and hear" the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Thus he can listen in on radio and see people (as indistinct blobs) through walls. A direct hit by an artillery shell causes injury. Luring him into a trap with a ton of dynamite would knock him unconscious for an extended period.

[Cassandra]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Roosevelt and Churchill didn't not invite Stalin to become one of the Allies. Stalin formed an alliance with Hitler in August 1939 in which he would get the Easter half of Poland, and invade Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia. There was also an exchange of technology, raw materials, and intelligence.

 

Hitler invaded Russian on June 22, 1941, and Stalin was so shocked by this (he never thought anyone would get the better of him) that he had a mental break down and didn't speak publicly for over a week.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Because he didn't notice Stalin doing anything that was a crime in the jurisdiction where he was doing it.

 

Starving millions of Ukranians and setting up gulags was legal in the USSR? I guess that would fall under the "as long as you are only killing / oppressing your own people" rule.

 

Also I guess he would just ignore China? Japan began its invasion of China in 1931 (Mukden Incident) and really got rolling by 1937 (Rape of Nanking).

 

How about Italy? Mussolini invaded Abyssinia / Ethiopia in 1935 and it was pretty well known that he was using poison gas against Ethiopian troops. He also invaded Albania 5 months before Germany invaded Poland.

 

Then there was that whole unpleasantness in Spain 1936-39, but I guess that falls back onto that whole as long as you are only killing your own countrymen thing again (although not sure that applies to the German, Soviet and Italian "volunteers").

 

Guess Austria and Czechoslovakia don't rate either.

 

So what makes Poland so special to get the Man of Steel to take notice?

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

So what makes Poland so special to get the Man of Steel to take notice?

You did notice the part where it was told that he is only around since 1938?

Becuase if not: He was.

 

Also, had any of these events results nearly as important as the Invasion of Poland, wich started WW2?

[RexMundi]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Able to fly at just short of the speed of sound' date=' toss a tank, lift a destroyer, bend a battleship's main gun and "see and hear" the entire electromagnetic spectrum. Thus he can listen in on radio and see people (as indistinct blobs) through walls. A direct hit by an artillery shell causes injury. Luring him into a trap with a ton of dynamite would knock him unconscious for an extended period.[/quote']

 

Ah... OK. I'll get back to this at lunch or after work. Placeholder.

 

~Rex

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

The Germans summon Thor using an occult ritual, after failing to lure Superman into impregnating a pretty blonde spy. They fight to a stalemate and destroy a lot of stuff in the process. Shocked at their own destructiveness, Thor and Superman vow not to travel beyond the borders of their respective countries anymore.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

You did notice the part where it was told that he is only around since 1938?

Becuase if not: He was.

 

Also, had any of these events results nearly as important as the Invasion of Poland, wich started WW2?

 

Does our Superman clone have Precognition so that he magically knows which horrible violations of human rights and invasions of sovereign nations are "nearly as important" as any other such attrocity while it is happening?

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Does our Superman clone have Precognition so that he magically knows which horrible violations of human rights and invasions of sovereign nations are "nearly as important" as any other such attrocity while it is happening?

Does it in any way mater why he prevented WW2?

The given scenario was that he did.

 

With him arriving 1938 he might have intervened near the end of what happened in Spain, but for all the other stuff Toadmaster noted he was simply too late.

[Clonus]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Does our Superman clone have Precognition so that he magically knows which horrible violations of human rights and invasions of sovereign nations are "nearly as important" as any other such attrocity while it is happening?

 

He does not. Nor does he know very much about stuff that happened before his arrival on Earth in 1938 (coinciding with the first issue of Superman in our timeline). Thus he doesn't intervene in the Rape of Nanking or the invasion of Ethiopia in part because he was light years away when that was happening. However there is another issue which is that his attention was drawn to Poland by what appeared to him to be conventional criminality, the supposed attacks on Germans by Polish terrorists. In short it's the actual Nazi propaganda leading up to the war that draws him into the situation. He actually goes there to try to stop those crimes that threatened to start a war and is infuriated when he realizes that he's been fooled.

[Toadmaster]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

You did notice the part where it was told that he is only around since 1938?

Becuase if not: He was.

 

Also, had any of these events results nearly as important as the Invasion of Poland, wich started WW2?

 

Nope did not see that, going back and rereading I see that several posts in. Disagree that Poland was the most important event without future knowledge of events, but if he arrived in 1938 that dismisses most of the events I listed.

[assault]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

It was pretty clear at the time that a new World War was starting. Hence this intervention, and not the others.

 

August 25, 1939 - Britain and Poland sign a Mutual Assistance Treaty.

August 31, 1939 - British fleet mobilizes; Civilian evacuations begin from London.

September 1, 1939 - Nazis invade Poland.

September 3, 1939 - Britain, France, Australia and New Zealand declare war on Germany.

September 4, 1939 - British Royal Air Force attacks the German Navy.

September 5, 1939 - United States proclaims its neutrality; German troops cross the Vistula River in Poland.

September 10, 1939 - Canada declares war on Germany; Battle of the Atlantic begins.

September 17, 1939 - Soviets invade Poland.

[RexMundi]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

After careful thought and a bit of reading.... My view is that SuperMensch delays the start of the war about 3 months.... Then is killed. Unless it's Planet Pushing Silver Age Superclone, or the Current Model, you don't need a nuke to kill him you could do it with a few 8.8's or even a basic Artillery Barrage of the time. Especially effective if you plan correctly.

 

~Rex

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Really? There are other, better ways of dealing with this situation than Killing the PC in question.

[RexMundi]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Really? There are other' date=' better ways of dealing with this situation than Killing the PC in question.[/quote']

 

Oh very true if we're dealing with a PC. Easily dozens of different ways. Some very simple if you're willing to cross a line here or there. I liked the Thor angle as well.

 

~Rex

[Clonus]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

After careful thought and a bit of reading.... My view is that SuperMensch delays the start of the war about 3 months.... Then is killed. Unless it's Planet Pushing Silver Age Superclone, or the Current Model, you don't need a nuke to kill him you could do it with a few 8.8's or even a basic Artillery Barrage of the time. Especially effective if you plan correctly.

 

~Rex

 

Actually its harder than you may think to do lethal amounts of damage to a human sized object that can fly faster than any airplane of the time and can't actually be killed with one hit. An intensive artillery barrage is bad enough that if one was coming at him, he'd probably beat a hasty retreat, but he's eminently equipped to do that. Also it's hard to surprise him what with his ability to detect and understand radio and see right through conventional camouflage.

[RexMundi]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Which is why I was asking about the power level. I think folks seriously underestimate the sheer power of a direct hit from nearly any munition in the HERO system or the real world for that matter. At 100m, Superclone isn't much smaller then the standard testing target. Take something like the Pak 43, which is going to shoot a round at him moving at over 1000 m/s, which at 100m will punch right through 202mm (about 8" or so) of homogenous armor plate. There's gonna be more then one, and they fire around 25 rounds a minute at anywhere out to 17,000 yards though 4,400 yards was optimal for best effect...

 

That's not even the AP or HEAT round. Basically, Superclone is dead in one hit if a pile of TnT is capable of knocking him for a loop (And you may want to check the sheer damage of a room full of TnT since that's basically, 12DC to start at .45kg and goes up 1DC every .45 kg so think of how many d6 that is, when you're talking about a measly 100 pounds of TNT.... Don't even have to get close then. Talking about Detonation waves around 20,000 f/s so, this Superclone, isn't getting away....

 

Stuff like that is why I always harp about comparative scale. Got to know what the world IS, in game rules, before one rolls out the game effects.

 

~Rex

[massey]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

I'm not really sure of the point of this thread. Are you asking how Superman could stop WWII? Or ideas for a world where he did stop it? Or are you asking for what the logical outcome of nabbing Hitler would be?

 

I think it's relatively easy for a Superman knock-off to avoid getting killed by German soldiers. He isn't limited by things like air bases, a need to refuel, a need to fly in the daytime, etc. You've got a 10 Dex 2 Speed German soldier trying to point a nearly immobile cannon towards him while he streaks across the treetops at 200 mph. With his senses he will see them before they see him. The German army isn't the issue.

 

I think it would be more interesting if he really did stop WWII. Not delay it by 5 years, just stopped it. Trashed their supply lines, wrecked their capability to wage war, captured their leaders. The US never mobilizes for war, the Allies go back to business as usual. The Great Depression drags on for another 20 years. Little military or technological development. No space race. No Cold War. No development of computers. The modern day might look like Batman The Animated Series, a cool, dark, 1940s feel where art deco never went out of style.

[Alverant]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

It could certainly put a stop into germans plans.

The question is, is the stop enough to lead to a different Cold War?

One in wich Russia/Germany/Japan are one front?

One in wich the rest of Europe joins with America and China as counter-front?

Since Hitler hated communism (he was always planning on betraying Stalin when he felt the time was right. OTOH Stalin thought the treaty with Hitler was so beneficial to both of them there was no way Hitler would break it) they wouldn't have been allies for long.

[assault]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Yes, as far as I am concerned, the point of this line of thought is to think about what would happen.

 

It is valid, I suppose, to ask what would be required to make it happen. Would Superman have to be more powerful? Perhaps.

 

Then again, asking "what would happen?" is actually the wrong goal too. It would be better to say "how could a really cool situation come into being?"

 

The result I would look for would be one where technology is less evenly distributed, and has something of a Mad Science feel to it. Yes, there would be space craft, but they would exist in a society that is in many ways more like the 1930s.

 

There is a problem with this, though. The Pulp/Golden Age model is socially very blind in many respects. Racism is just the most obvious example. A "cool" setting can be a nightmare to live in. Personally, I don't really want to get into the details of how race/gender/whatever intersect with society in my fantasy worlds (superheroes being fantasy, of course), nor am I particularly comfortable with creating a world that is actually worse than our current reality. So I guess I will just have to pretend that's not what's happening.

[Alverant]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

6. WW2 postponed for 5 years in Europe...

I'm wondering if those extra 5 years would have given Germany enough time to develop atomic weapons or would the embargo on the necessary materials have kept it out of their reach. (Of course smugglers could very well be able to sneak in some or even all of the items.)

 

While I do think WWII was inevitable with Germany demanding vengeance for their defeat and all that, would Hitler still have been in charge or would he have been replaced by someone else. Say someone who knew their treaty with the USSR was useful for the time being and delay breaking it until their victory in Europe was set instead of just starting a two front war. United Staters have a tendency to forget the Soviets inflected more damage to the Nazis than we did and the war would have probably been lost (or at least extended) without them.

[Alverant]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

There is a problem with this' date=' though. The Pulp/Golden Age model is socially very blind in many respects. Racism is just the most obvious example. A "cool" setting can be a nightmare to live in. Personally, I don't really want to get into the details of how race/gender/whatever intersect with society in my fantasy worlds (superheroes being fantasy, of course), nor am I particularly comfortable with creating a world that is actually worse than our current reality. So I guess I will just have to pretend that's not what's happening.[/quote']Well WWII did influence social norms. More women became employed. Antisemitism fell out of fashion. The GI bill helped many racial minorities get a college education. It paved the way for equal rights in the 60s.

 

Taking WWII out of history would have left the modern world radically different and in many ways worse.

[assault]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Incidentally, I don't think a no-WW2 world would be stable either. Things might hold together for a while, but eventually there would be a major crisis, of whatever nature. But that's what campaigns are about, surely?

 

I'd probably cut the timeline fairly short, and start the campaign in the late 50s-early 60s. The Silver Age, basically. Somehow, probably due to err... superhuman efforts, the lid has stayed on for 20 years or so. But now... oh wait, what are those saucer shaped things in the sky? More aliens? Not again!

 

And the 21st century would be The Future, achievable by time travel.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Not just Germany, but every major world power would be seeking ways to either emulate/create their own supermen(and women) or else find effective counter-measures in some way. It would be a new kind of arms race. Eventually the emergence and development of such super-weapons might draw the attention of extraterrestrial or even extradimensional powers. And then the World Wars would be replaced by the Worlds Wars.

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Haven't we already gone there? "God exists, and he's American."