Superman Averts World War II?

[kahuna's bro]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Not just Germany' date=' but every major world power would be seeking ways to either emulate/create their own supermen(and women) or else find effective counter-measures in some way. It would be a new kind of arms race. Eventually the emergence and development of such super-weapons might draw the attention of extraterrestrial or even extradimensional powers. And then the World Wars would be replaced by the Worlds Wars.[/quote']

 

that makes sese megaplayboy

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

If WW2 were postponed for 5 years in Europe, that would give Germany time to implement Plan Z, their naval shipbuilding plan. They might also have time to properly develop jet aircraft and get out ahead of most other countries. Heck, they might even build a decent heavy bomber or even the "Amerika Bomber" they were working on. Not to mention the multi-stage A9/A10 development of the V2.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Germany implements the Z Plan, England matches or exceeds thier ship production.

Jet engines were invented in England. The Gloster Meteor was in production before the Messerschmit Me-262.

The end of the Washington Naval Treaty with Japan's withdrawel in 1937 unleashed a lot of new warship construction.

It's a big old can of worms, as countries react to what other countries are doing.

America hears about German rocket experiments, and Robert Goddard gets more funding.

Would Japan react to the American embargo with war if Holland and France weren't already conquered and England fighting for it's life? WW2 might start in the far east in 1941-42, instead of in Poland 1939.

 

Without the war, does Germany build the 'better tanks' it had in the late war? They'd certainly have enough Pz IVs for infantry support, Pz IIIs for the Panzer divisions, and Pz IIs for recon work, so they could leave the Pz Is at home, but would they develop the better anti-tank guns if they never faced British Matildas at Arras, or better tanks like the Pz V Panther or Pz VI Tiger without facing Russian T-34s? Likewise, would the British replace thier pathetic 2lb AT gun with the 6lb and 17lb if they weren't bouncing shells off of Pz IIIjs near Tobruk in 1941? With 4 more years to work on the problem, do the Americans come out with a better tank than the M4 Sherman?

 

Without the war, the U.S. builds fewer ships. Which ships get cancelled? The Independence class light carriers, certainly. Do they build all six of the North Carolina class BBs, all six of the South Dakota class, and only six of the Essex class CVs? (Historically, they built two North Carolinas, four South Dakotas, plus four Iowas, and 24 Essex class)

 

Countries react to what other countries do. German production of the Bf-109 in the mid 1930's led to British production of the Spitfire. If Germany is building a modern fleet, continues to upgrade thier air force, and is working on rockets, other countries will follow suit. With the war paused until 1945, everyone is better prepared. None of this flopping around with training tanks forced into the front lines, or a navy unprepared for the kind of war it has to fight. But there will still be blind spots. Some of the same blind spots, some different.

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

There is a problem with this' date=' though. The Pulp/Golden Age model is socially very blind in many respects. Racism is just the most obvious example. A "cool" setting can be a nightmare to live in. Personally, I don't really want to get into the details of how race/gender/whatever intersect with society in my fantasy worlds (superheroes being fantasy, of course), nor am I particularly comfortable with creating a world that is actually worse than our current reality. So I guess I will just have to pretend that's not what's happening.[/quote']

Who says your "superman" has to be white? Or a man?

 

The Black Superwomen could fight for truth, justice and equal chances.

 

I'm wondering if those extra 5 years would have given Germany enough time to develop atomic weapons or would the embargo on the necessary materials have kept it out of their reach. (Of course smugglers could very well be able to sneak in some or even all of the items.)

Russia is today one of the most important sources of Uranium for Europe. Or metals in general. And oil for fuel. One of the reasons hitler wanted (needed) to take Russia were those reserves.

 

While I do think WWII was inevitable with Germany demanding vengeance for their defeat and all that' date=' would Hitler still have been in charge or would he have been replaced by someone else.[/quote']

In the JL-Animated Series there was a tripple episode in wich Vandal Savage send an "earlier him" a laptop, so he could win WW2. The first words were (to a picture of hitler): "This man is an idiot. You can't win the war if he is in charge."

 

And I totally agree, Hitler was a lunatic. Without him and the top, the entire game would have changed.

 

 

One thing about the US joining the war I think I need to correct:

The USA did not declare Germany the war.

Germany/Italy declared America the war. Because of it's alliance with Japan:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripartite_Pact

 

When a changed german leadership reconsiders this treaty - or at least to engage America over it - then America would not have entered the war for a long time.

 

Not just Germany' date=' but every major world power would be seeking ways to either emulate/create their own supermen(and women) or else find effective counter-measures in some way. It would be a new kind of arms race. Eventually the emergence and development of such super-weapons might draw the attention of extraterrestrial or even extradimensional powers. And then the World Wars would be replaced by the Worlds Wars.[/quote']

Just remembered this one when you mentioned alien Invasions. There is a Mod for "Sins of the Solar Empire" called "Dawn of Victory". Basic story: In the middle of WWII aliens try the "War of Worlds" thing. Works pretty well for them, until humans develop nuclear bombs:

Storyline Trailer #1

Storyline Trailer #2

 

Here is an overview over the alternate history and Timeline:

http://dawnofvictory.com/wiki/index.php?title=History

http://dawnofvictory.com/wiki/index.php?title=Timeline

[Andrew_A]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Here's a question. Assuming the war in the Pacific starts the same way, what does Superclone do about Pearl Harbor? Does the public still support FDR declaring war on the Japanese? Does that trigger the war in Europe?

[assault]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Interesting. Superclone was presumably ignoring the conflict in China up until that point.

 

More to the point, it wasn't only Pearl Harbor that was attacked. Malaya and Hong Kong were attacked on the 8th (don't forget the international date line). The Dutch East Indies was attacked on the 17th, but the Dutch declared war on Japan on the 8th. The Japanese attack was itself a starting point for a "world war", involving the US, the Netherlands, the British Empire and China.

 

It's likely that France would have joined in too. The Vichyite administration in French Indochina was pretty much an orphan in our timeline, but in the one we are discussing, France would still be a functioning colonial empire, complete with one of the world's largest fleets. The Netherlands would have been a similar case, although on a smaller scale.

 

Japan would have been "rather courageous" to take them all on simultaneously.

 

An aside: Superguy had presumably overlooked the Soviet-Japanese border conflicts that ended in 1939. It's likely he would have been barely aware of them, and they weren't about to blow up Europe like the Polish crisis. The brief Franco-Thai war probably wouldn't have registered either.

 

The Italian occupation of Abyssinia is something else, since the League of Nations was theoretically involved there. It's possible that Italy might have backed down in the aftermath of the Polish crisis, but doing so would have cost Mussolini a lot of credibility.

 

Back to the main point: the Japanese would have been nuts to take on everybody else simultaneously, while they weren't distracted by a war in Europe and the Mediterranean. That doesn't mean they wouldn't have done it.

 

On the other hand, they might have tried just to fight one opponent at a time. (France?) I'm not sure if that would have worked, though - it's likely the other European powers would have ganged up on them. It's possible the US might not have gotten involved if they weren't themselves attacked. But then, it was the US blockade that caused the war in the first place....

 

I can see the Japanese being initially successful in this situation, just like they were in our timeline. However, they would be facing stronger British forces, since the latter hadn't been raided for reinforcements elsewhere. This would tend to make up for US forces not being involved in the early campaign.

 

The naval aspect of the war would be interesting, since the European fleets were comparatively battleship heavy rather than carrier oriented. On the other hand, they would have been able to match Japanese land based air power fairly quickly, and partly make up for the Japanese superiority in naval aviation that way.

 

Without the intervention of Superclone, this would have be a long conflict in its own right. Eventually, Japan would lose, as the intact European empires mobilise their resources.

 

However, this is exactly where Superclone would make an appearance, and where Japan's plans to counteract him would be tested.

 

If Superclone was defeated, if Japan inflicted heavy losses on British, France and the Netherlands, and if Germany had rearmed (and the latter is a major 'if' in itself given the timescale), it's quite possible that this might trigger a war in Europe. Maybe the Soviet Union moves on the Baltic states and Finland, while Italy attacks Greece. (Come to think of it, Italy occupied Albania in early 1939, and might have been forced to withdraw after the Polish business. In that case, it might try to reoccupy it in the new situation).

 

So we've moved the war on a few years, and shuffled a few things around, without really doing much to create a more interesting game setting. Still, if Superclone was a PC, or a team of PCs, it suggests that a GM could afford to let them change history, without entirely breaking the world. History can have a lot of inertia, if you want it to.

 

My wargamer side finds the Japan versus France, Britain and the Netherlands conflict rather interesting.

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Here's a question. Assuming the war in the Pacific starts the same way' date=' what does Superclone do about Pearl Harbor? Does the public still support FDR declaring war on the Japanese? Does that trigger the war in Europe?[/quote']

He has to hear of it and get there first. Afaik he only had "shortly under the speed of sound".

 

One idea to keep most of the original storline:

What if none of the eurasian nations wants him inside his borders? His first action was to abduct the head of a state.

If he would be willing to accept a "don't interefere" from the government, it could still play out mostly like the original WW2.

 

At least for poland that scenario seemed unlikely, as they were simply in a too weak position.

But France could easily held off superman until it was too late and they had to sign the peace treaty anyway. And the fall of France was one of the most important strategic victories for the 3rd Reich.

 

There could also be a misunderstanding on terms. While germany attacked Poland, it were Brittain and France who declared war on Germany. He might simply see those two nations as the "agressors" and not help them.

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

We also need to establish the effectiveness of weapons against our superman clone.

There is a lot of room between a Mauser Pistol and a MG-42 or Panzerfaust.

 

When securing the HQ with heavy weapons, it could be easily to produce zones of crossfire so when you attack one MG-entrenchment you get shoot by the other.

 

On the other hand, the heros attack power could be so low that they cannot win any important battle on thier own. They might make an impact on the enemy forces, but there are still soldiers fighting soldiers.

So even if the heroes wreak a tank every minute, the battle could still be lost.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Well, the biggest ordnance available to the Nazis in 1939, that superclone could conceivably be hit by, would likely be a heavy bomb from a Stuka. That would be a 500kg(1100 lb) bomb. That type of bomb would be easily capable of utterly destroying the heaviest tanks of the day and even penetrating the deck armor of the most heavily armored battleships in 1939. They also had a 150mm "infantry gun" which could fire an 84 lb HE shell containing about 20 pounds of amatol. If we assume "nothing less than a bursting shell" could penetrate his skin, then a 150mm gun could probably stun him, and a aerial bomb would flat out kill him.

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Well' date=' the biggest ordnance available to the Nazis in 1939, that superclone could conceivably be hit by, would likely be a heavy bomb from a Stuka. That would be a 500kg(1100 lb) bomb. That type of bomb would be easily capable of utterly destroying the heaviest tanks of the day and even penetrating the deck armor of the most heavily armored battleships in 1939. They also had a 150mm "infantry gun" which could fire an 84 lb HE shell containing about 20 pounds of amatol. If we assume "nothing less than a bursting shell" could penetrate his skin, then a 150mm gun could probably stun him, and a aerial bomb would flat out kill him.[/quote']

Both infantery guns and the Stuka bomb are not maneuverable enough to hit him. Or most superhumans for that matter.

 

I think anything less mobile than a heavy MG (like the MG 34) could not be brought to bear.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Both infantery guns and the Stuka bomb are not maneuverable enough to hit him. Or most superhumans for that matter.

 

I think anything less mobile than a heavy MG (like the MG 34) could not be brought to bear.

 

Flak guns could probably do it. High rate of fire, quick swivel mounting, usually bunched in groups. If you can just stop his movement for a moment, a tank gun or direct fire howitzer could probably knock him out.

[RexMundi]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

It would Kill Him. Seriously, folks are underestimating a Lot of Stuff here. Even at the WWII level a lot of this Weaponry was Exceedingly effective.....

 

~Rex....goes back to painting some Micro Armor.....

[Andrew_A]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

He has to hear of it and get there first. Afaik he only had "shortly under the speed of sound".

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear. What I meant was, the day after Pearl Harbor what does Superclone do?

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Flak guns could probably do it. High rate of fire' date=' quick swivel mounting, usually bunched in groups. If you can just stop his movement for a moment, a tank gun or direct fire howitzer could probably knock him out.[/quote']

Again the problem is hitting him.

Even a 88 (one of the best Flak guns) needed between 16,000 and 3,000 shoots - if used against a bomber, for wich you got a radar image.

And you need him to be and stay where you can hit him in the first place.

 

And even if you manage to pin him, then the tank gun or howitzer has to hit. They had trouble hitting a tank size target back then.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Again the problem is hitting him.

Even a 88 (one of the best Flak guns) needed between 16,000 and 3,000 shoots - if used against a bomber, for wich you got a radar image.

And you need him to be and stay where you can hit him in the first place.

 

And even if you manage to pin him, then the tank gun or howitzer has to hit. They had trouble hitting a tank size target back then.

 

I was thinking more in terms of a 37 or 40mm twin, triple or quad mounting. That's sufficient firepower to knock him about a bit, giving the heavier stuff a chance to hit or land close enough.

[massey]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

It would Kill Him. Seriously, folks are underestimating a Lot of Stuff here. Even at the WWII level a lot of this Weaponry was Exceedingly effective.....

 

~Rex....goes back to paining some Micro Armor.....

 

No it wouldn't.

 

See how easy this is when we're talking about a character with no writeup?

 

Even if we're talking about the 5th ed overpowered 5D6 double-armor piercing RKA of the M1 Abrams, that's still not enough to kill a guy with 20 rPD. It'll knock the poop out of him, but he'll live. WWII weapons will be quite a bit less than that.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Hmm.

.50 caliber, 3d6 KA

20 mm, 3 1/2d6 KA

40 mm, 4 1/2d6 KA

50 mm, 5d6 KA

75 mm, 5 1/2d6 KA

88/90 mm, 6d6 KA(possibly AP)

105 mm, 6d+1 KA

128 mm, 6 1/2 d6 KA

150 mm, 7d6 KA(explosion, usually)

203 mm, 7 1/2 d6 KA

406 mm, maybe 9d6 KA(explosion)

 

A direct hit by an armor-piercing bomb of sufficient size might kill Superclone outright. Tank guns and artillery shells would be capable of injuring him, assuming a 20rPD.

[RexMundi]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Again the problem is hitting him.

Even a 88 (one of the best Flak guns) needed between 16,000 and 3,000 shoots - if used against a bomber, for wich you got a radar image.

And you need him to be and stay where you can hit him in the first place.

 

And even if you manage to pin him, then the tank gun or howitzer has to hit. They had trouble hitting a tank size target back then.

 

Dude, they were hitting Tank size targets while moving over broken over at optimal ranges, much less hitting 6x6 test armors at extreme ranges. Already posted some of the numbers. Seriously, Superclone at the power level mentioned is a pain in the butt but it wouldn't be that hard to trap or outright kill him.

 

~Rex

[massey]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Hmm.

.50 caliber, 3d6 KA

20 mm, 3 1/2d6 KA

40 mm, 4 1/2d6 KA

50 mm, 5d6 KA

75 mm, 5 1/2d6 KA

88/90 mm, 6d6 KA(possibly AP)

105 mm, 6d+1 KA

128 mm, 6 1/2 d6 KA

150 mm, 7d6 KA(explosion, usually)

203 mm, 7 1/2 d6 KA

406 mm, maybe 9d6 KA(explosion)

 

A direct hit by an armor-piercing bomb of sufficient size might kill Superclone outright. Tank guns and artillery shells would be capable of injuring him, assuming a 20rPD.

 

I think you're scaling those up way too high. Look at the 5th Ed revised rulebook, page 487. A howitzer round is listed as a 5D6 RKA explosion. A heavy bomb is 6D6. That's about the level you need.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

I think you're scaling those up way too high. Look at the 5th Ed revised rulebook' date=' page 487. A howitzer round is listed as a 5D6 RKA explosion. A heavy bomb is 6D6. That's about the level you need.[/quote']

 

Well, under 5th, that would be 22 and 27 DC, respectively. The general rule, all other things being equal, is "double the caliber, add a d6 KA". A shaped charge shell(i.e., a HEAT round) fired by a howitzer should injure Superclone just fine.

[ayinde]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

lets just agree to disagree rather than fall into a fanboy slap fight on this. if superman proved a threat I think its safe to feel that a faction would take steps to take care of the problem. as for how much damage vs def the tank shell could bring I kinda doubt there would only be one fired to kill him add his need to protect the helpless he would be at a tactical disadvantage if ally soldiers were also present

[RexMundi]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Can always break out the base book and reconfigure the damage of the weapons based on material penetration at range. I got all the real world numbers which is why I stand on the KIA side of the fence.

 

~Rex

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

No it wouldn't.

 

See how easy this is when we're talking about a character with no writeup?

 

Even if we're talking about the 5th ed overpowered 5D6 double-armor piercing RKA of the M1 Abrams, that's still not enough to kill a guy with 20 rPD. It'll knock the poop out of him, but he'll live. WWII weapons will be quite a bit less than that.

 

Rex and Clonus have already done a pretty good job of setting the parameters of the debate. There is no question that there are Superman concepts that can win WWII single handed. Good Lord! There are Superman concepts that can travel through time, move planets, swallow the contents of entire oil tankers, manufacture arbitrarily large numbers of equally powerful robot servants....

 

We're specifically talking about Superman at a level where WWII can challenge him. He can't fly to Pearl Harbor as it is happening. He can fly faster than a Bf109E, but probably not faster than a Hawker Fury. He has 20 rPD. Which, if he has 10 Body, means that a 7d6 2XAP RKA will kill him extra dead. Megaplayboy persuasively gets the 88mm AA/AT round at 6d6 RKA, 1xAP, which is marginal for killing someone with 20rPD, 10 Body.

 

Now how likely is a hit? It depends. The figure of thousands of rounds for a kill (not a direct hit, which would be still less likely) is based on shooting at aircraft at distances well in excess of 2000 yards. That's a very long shot for an 88 in an AT role. In tactical combat, most tank-killing was done at ranges of well under 1000 yards, and, for infantry anti-tank combat, under 60. At that range, I have great difficulty imagining an AT rifle missing if shot at Superclone's back while he's standing still. The final incarnation of the Boys Anti-Tank Rifle, which was often used as a sniping weapon, fired a tungsten APCR penetrator round at 3,100 fps. That's a little high tech for 1939, but even the vanilla round of that year was a very big bullet, albeit at a modest muzzle velocity of 2,495 fps. That yields 6x the muzzle energy of a standard rifle round, and more than the .50.

 

What's more, the Boys wasn't even a particularly powerful AT rifle, the designer having taken the somewhat odd perspective that barrel life was more important than armour piercing capacity. ("This thing can't hurt that tank!" "Yes, but we can shoot it a lot!")

 

If I crank it up a bit to the 2 pounder, we get a 1.08kg round with a muzzle velocity of 792 m/s. This "tinkertoy" gun was relatively high profile and heavy, but very quick to train. Again, I doubt that good gunners would have any problem putting a round into Superclone's back if he were foolish enough to stand around talking for a moment. In British testing, that round would go through 49mm of steel at 90 degrees at 500ish meters, compared with 19 for the Boys. I'm going to call that a 4d6+1 RKA. Not enough to get through the rPD, but certainly expecting Con Stun for a reasonably Body score. At that point, a satchel contact AT mine should do for Superclone.

 

The reason that I harp on this stuff is, again, that we've set the terms of the debate as one in which Superclone can be hurt, and can't bring the war to an end with some spectacular demonstration of miniature rainbow-coloured superclones shooting out of his hands. (Or "super-weaving," for that matter.) It's only once we've set these terms that the thought experiment can even be made.

 

Rex says that WWII weapons could actually hit their target. Eyeballing the casualty figures, I'm going to suggest that he's probably right. In a weapon-dense environment (which typically describes the forward edge of the battle area), even in 1939, Superclone is going to run into a great many weapons that kick like a mule. He's probably going to get killed.

 

That doesn't mean that he couldn't conceivably have an effect on the outcome of the Battle of Poland, because the Germans went into that war with no idea what they were doing and actually came close to suffering the "kettling" of 10th Army at the Bzura. Which kind of proves that actual, regular people (even the Polish Army of 1939!) are usually a great deal more competent than the more dismissive among us assume. Which is why I, personally, think that the answer to the thought experiment is that Superclone couldn't win WWII single-handed.

 

As for the "capture Hitler and put him on trial" thing, it is naive at best. But what I don't think has been sufficiently underscored here is the waste of points. I honestly doubt that you could bring a Superclone who can fly as fast as a Bf109 in at as few as 400 points. For that number of points, I could easily design a character who could win WWII. Actually, I could design many characters who could win WWII.

 

The catch is that they would have to be team players. Which, I think, is the real issue here. People who see "superhero" and think "god." I call these people "DC Comic fans."

 

So, in conclusion, Make Mine Marvel!

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

[Double Post].

[dmjalund]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Superclone should attack at night. WWII defenses are a lot less effective at night.