Superman Averts World War II?

[Clonus]

OK so some Superman knockoff decides to fly over to the German Polish border, exposes the false flag operation (which nobody bought anyway), then flies into Germany, abducts Adolph Hitler, and dumps him in from of the International Court. Which of course has no idea what to do with him. But, rattled, Hitler calls the invasion of Poland off for now.

 

Consequences:

 

1. Germany starts dumping beaucoup resources into anti-Superman research. Magic, giant robots, supersoldier serums, extraterrestrial communication, atomic weapons, glowing green meteorites spunky reporter girlfriends, anything that might give the big guy an owie.

 

2. Japan is caught in a jam. The United States is still going to embargo them, but politically it's impossible for them to back off of China. Any politician who suggests it will probably be murdered and I'm not being figurative. They might go for it anyway, just so they can politically save face by losing to an overwhelming force (Superman), or gain it by successfully arranging a trap for him to fall into.

 

3. Whether Japan pulls back or is defeated, that means the Chinese Nationalists and Communists will be back at it with each other, and the Communists probably still win. That "Superman" doesn't take action to prevent that will make American right wingers in Congress take a second look at him.

 

4. Without World War II Roosevelt probably isn't re-elected. Certainly not in 1944, and probably not in 1940. Wilkie lost because he was caught between isolationist and internationalist factions of his own party. Had the election been fought on the subject of the economy, he would have been in better shape.

[Epiphanis]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

That's one of an approximately infinite number of ways it could play out. Projecting historically divergent timelines is inherently less accurate than predicting the existing timeline's future, which is pretty damn inaccurate. What purpose are you accomplishing with this hypothetical timeline?

[Clonus]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

That's one of an approximately infinite number of ways it could play out. Projecting historically divergent timelines is inherently less accurate than predicting the existing timeline's future' date=' which is pretty damn inaccurate. What purpose are you accomplishing with this hypothetical timeline?[/quote']

 

It isn't inherently less accurate. At worst it's no more accurate and that's over the long term as divergences start to pile up. In the short term we have the advantage of knowing who the major players like Stalin or Hitler are which is something we don't know about the future. And the subject was brought up in the Golden Age plotline where someone was talking about how they abandoned the idea of of a no-world-war II parallel universe as a setting for play. It need not be "true". It just needs to pass a superficial sniff test.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Is the Superman American and was his existiance known at all prior to the event?

[Cassandra]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

The League of Nations would apologize to Hitler, and he would return to Berlin more popular then ever. The U.S. Government would have to press charges against Superman or risk War with German. State Department officials like Alger Hiss would push for Superman's imprisonment.

 

Appeasement was the name of the game at the time.

[Hermit]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

The League of Nations would apologize to Hitler, and he would return to Berlin more popular then ever. The U.S. Government would have to press charges against Superman or risk War with German. State Department officials like Alger Hiss would push for Superman's imprisonment.

 

Appeasement was the name of the game at the time.

 

I think Cassandra has the right of it. This could backfire on the Superman type VERY badly and start an early persecution of the superpowered if they are public enough. Think X-Men's "Days of Future Past" circa late 30s early 40s.

[Clonus]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Is the Superman American and was his existiance known at all prior to the event?

 

The superman is an alien based in the United States (but unlike Superman arrived as an adult, explaining his naivete about how things work on Earth). The first issue of Superman was in Summer 1938 so his knockoff would have been fighting crime and rescuing kittens for about a year before the Germans are ready to invade Poland. I'm assuming that he has the same scruples against directly killing humans (because really it's like dealing with misbehaving toddlers by killing them) so he will not pop Hitler or Tojo's head. I'm also roughly following the actual Superman issue where he tries to deal with Hitler and Stalin by abducting them and turning them over to the League of Nations. My superman turns Hitler, and the evidence and witnesses to the murders committed to the International Court (because he doesn't really understand what the International Court did, which was mediate treaty disputes).

 

The League of Nations would apologize to Hitler, and he would return to Berlin more popular then ever. The U.S. Government would have to press charges against Superman or risk War with German. State Department officials like Alger Hiss would push for Superman's imprisonment.

 

Appeasement was the name of the game at the time.

 

Well, Hitler would return to Germany, the Court of International Justice not having the authority to pass judgement on him. However, the time of appeasement had largely passed. Britain and France were prepared to declare war if Germany made one more move and I doubt that Roosevelt would consider the German threats credible particularly if the superman is regarded as an American who would presumably be on their side.

 

It's possible though that they'd put a kidnapping warrant out for him. This would not greatly concern him but would alienate him from further attempts to get involved in human warfare. Thus, he lets the Japanese do anything they want if they have the nerve and pays no attention to the Communists.

[Andrew_A]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

OK so some Superman knockoff decides to fly over to the German Polish border, exposes the false flag operation (which nobody bought anyway), then flies into Germany, abducts Adolph Hitler, and dumps him in from of the International Court. Which of course has no idea what to do with him. But, rattled, Hitler calls the invasion of Poland off for now.

 

Consequences:

 

1. Germany starts dumping beaucoup resources into anti-Superman research. Magic, giant robots, supersoldier serums, extraterrestrial communication, atomic weapons, glowing green meteorites spunky reporter girlfriends, anything that might give the big guy an owie.

 

2. Japan is caught in a jam. The United States is still going to embargo them, but politically it's impossible for them to back off of China. Any politician who suggests it will probably be murdered and I'm not being figurative. They might go for it anyway, just so they can politically save face by losing to an overwhelming force (Superman), or gain it by successfully arranging a trap for him to fall into.

 

3. Whether Japan pulls back or is defeated, that means the Chinese Nationalists and Communists will be back at it with each other, and the Communists probably still win. That "Superman" doesn't take action to prevent that will make American right wingers in Congress take a second look at him.

 

4. Without World War II Roosevelt probably isn't re-elected. Certainly not in 1944, and probably not in 1940. Wilkie lost because he was caught between isolationist and internationalist factions of his own party. Had the election been fought on the subject of the economy, he would have been in better shape.

 

I think it's best to do something Ken Hite suggested (in GURPS Infinite Worlds and the Wild Talents game) and design your alternate history with the end in mind, rather than create a divergence and try to think of the logical consequences. It's more fun that way and you'll be more emotionally invested in the final product.

 

Although if you're using this thread to consider cool possibilities that's a great idea too. I'm looking forward to the wild speculation.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

I'm not sure even Superman could stop WW2 by 1939. Germany wanted revenge against the French very badly, and feared the Russians a great deal. They wanted thier territory back in the Polish Corridor and the city of Danzig (Gdansk) a great deal. Kidnapping Hitler might not succeed in stopping the German invasion (the troops were in position, the orders had been given, and you've just kidnapped the only man in Germany with the power to countermand them).

 

So, just a train of thought...

1. Supes snags Hitler.

2. German army invades Poland on schedule.

3. German army takes over German government.

4. New German government blames Hitler for all the current problems.

5. Negotiated settlement with Poland erases Polish Corridor and makes Danzig part of Germany. Chamberlain, encouraged by his service chiefs, insists to the French to accept the results.

6. WW2 postponed for 5 years in Europe...

[assault]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

I think people are missing the bit where Superman trashes the German and Polish armies.

 

I won't mention the boxing match between Hitler and the Polish President or Prime Minister, aimed at humiliating them both in the eyes of their troops.

 

The war could in theory still carry on, but the armies would be reduced to fighting with small arms, at best.

 

Other powers that might consider taking advantage of the situation would be at risk of a similar issue.

 

Yes, the search for anti-Superman technology would begin immediately, and not just in the immediately effected states.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

The League of Nations would apologize to Hitler, and he would return to Berlin more popular then ever. The U.S. Government would have to press charges against Superman or risk War with German. State Department officials like Alger Hiss would push for Superman's imprisonment.

 

Appeasement was the name of the game at the time.

 

Poland was also a member of the League of Nations. As pointed out by another poster the International Court would have released Hitler because they were not that sort of court, but I can't see any big appologies forthcoming.

 

As for arresting Superman to appease the Germans, wouldn't have happened. Supes would have been a potential strategic game changer and we weren't all that afraid of the Germans. Afterall, we had just kick their tail 20 years earlier and would have been confident of our ability to do so again even without Superman's aid. However, the contest would be something that the government could use to draw the Man of Steel closer under its wing which is something it would have wanted to do from the moment that he appeared on the scene.

[dmjalund]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Why was he picking on the piker Hitler when there was Stalin out there?

[Clonus]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Why was he picking on the piker Hitler when there was Stalin out there?

 

Because he didn't notice Stalin doing anything that was a crime in the jurisdiction where he was doing it.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Why was he picking on the piker Hitler when there was Stalin out there?

 

I think you're right. But I think it would have been both of them.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44111[/ATTACH]

[Clonus]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

I think you're right. But I think it would have been both of them.

 

Stalin's invasion of Poland came 16 days after Hitler's invasion and would have been cancelled if something had somehow gone awry.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Stalin's invasion of Poland came 16 days after Hitler's invasion and would have been cancelled if something had somehow gone awry.

 

True. I'm just suggesting that Superman waits those 16 days and you'll more than likely avoid WWII for about 5 years. Because it was going to happen, it was just a matter of when.

[Arkham]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Interesting idea... But what would it do to the Nazi ideology? Suddenly there is someone who is not even German that makes the entirety of their 'master race' look like toddlers.

[assault]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

My assumption would be that the loss of face would mess up the Nazis, and lead to them splitting and losing power.

 

Without Hitler to balance off the various factions, the whole thing would very likely explode into a nasty power struggle.

 

The end result would still probably be an authoritarian far right government - just not the Nazis in their historical form.

 

And they would hate Superman.

 

EDIT: A couple of other points.

 

Superman wouldn't know about the Soviet plans for invading Poland, and wouldn't hang around while people were dying, so he would hit the Germans (and Poles) before the Soviets committed themselves.

 

A more general point is: how "realistic" should we be in thinking about this? The basic premise is, of course, entirely fantastic. We also know that Superman did intervene in wars in the source material, with apparent success.

 

Would it be better to build on that, rather than speculation about what would happen in the Real World? I suppose it depends on what the goal of the discussion actually is. Should we be looking at "given this, what would happen?" or "how do we get to this goal?" The two are rather different.

 

FWIW, when I engaged in my original speculation along these lines, I was looking at maintaining the assumptions of Golden Age comics, rather than engaging in "What If?" speculation. In other words, I was following a goal driven approach.

[Christopher]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

I think people are missing the bit where Superman trashes the German and Polish armies.

Yes, I missed that part. Because it isn't in the OP

[clsage]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

OK so some Superman knockoff decides to fly over to the German Polish border' date=' exposes the false flag operation (which nobody bought anyway), then flies into Germany, abducts Adolph Hitler, and dumps him in from of the International Court. Which of course has no idea what to do with him. But, rattled, Hitler calls the invasion of Poland off for now. [/quote']

 

Just a side/tangential note:

There is/was a story from the Golden Age which had a similar plotline: Supes flies over, nabs both Hitler and Stalin and presents them to the League Of Nations World Tribunal for summary judgement.....

 

Sadly, while I am certain the story exists (I believe I saw it mentioned in the documentary Look, Up In The Sky: The Amazing Story Of Superman circa 2006) my Google-Fu is not strong enough to find specifics.......yet. Still searching.

 

EDIT:

 

Here's a reference (Source: http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/comics.php?topic=articles/supes-war )

 

From section III-"Other Print Media":

 

The February 27, 1940 edition of Look Magazine ran a two-page sequence written by Jerry Siegel and drawn by Joe Shuster entitled "What If Superman Ended the War?" In that sequence, Superman had tired of the destruction of war and decided to bring it to an abrupt end. He flew to Berlin and captured Adolph Hitler, then went to Moscow to capture Joseph Stalin. Leaping high above the mountaintops, Superman flew the pair to Geneva Switzerland, to a court before the League of Nations where the two dictators were placed on trial for war crimes against their own people. Interestingly, this was published before Roosevelt and Churchill invited Stalin to be one of the allies, and Russia joined in the battle against Germany. Still, it showed the sentiment toward Russia during the 1940's, and that even then the world opinion of 1940 considered the Russian people to be oppressed.

 

 

 

 

 

-Carl-

[MisterVimes]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

I posted the scan of the comic earlier in this thread.

[Andrew_A]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Just a side/tangential note:

There is/was a story from the Golden Age which had a similar plotline: Supes flies over, nabs both Hitler and Stalin and presents them to the League Of Nations World Tribunal for summary judgement.....

 

Sadly, while I am certain the story exists (I believe I saw it mentioned in the documentary Look, Up In The Sky: The Amazing Story Of Superman circa 2006) my Google-Fu is not strong enough to find specifics.......yet. Still searching.

 

EDIT:

 

Here's a reference (Source: http://www.supermanhomepage.com/comics/comics.php?topic=articles/supes-war )

 

From section III-"Other Print Media":

 

The February 27, 1940 edition of Look Magazine ran a two-page sequence written by Jerry Siegel and drawn by Joe Shuster entitled "What If Superman Ended the War?" In that sequence, Superman had tired of the destruction of war and decided to bring it to an abrupt end. He flew to Berlin and captured Adolph Hitler, then went to Moscow to capture Joseph Stalin. Leaping high above the mountaintops, Superman flew the pair to Geneva Switzerland, to a court before the League of Nations where the two dictators were placed on trial for war crimes against their own people. Interestingly, this was published before Roosevelt and Churchill invited Stalin to be one of the allies, and Russia joined in the battle against Germany. Still, it showed the sentiment toward Russia during the 1940's, and that even then the world opinion of 1940 considered the Russian people to be oppressed.

 

 

 

 

 

-Carl-

 

I posted the scan of the comic earlier in this thread.

 

Also, if you want a hard copy, the story is reprinted int The Greatest Superman Stories Ever Told (not to be confused with Superman: The Greatest Stories Ever Told). DC published it back in the early 90s and it's out-of-print.

[clsage]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

I posted the scan of the comic earlier in this thread.

 

Oooops! Missed that on first pass......

 

sigh.

 

-Carl-

[RexMundi]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Need power level of the Superman Knockoff.....

 

~Rex

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Superman Averts World War II?

 

Some general random thoughts.

No more "No Empire, No More" Colonial Imperialism would die hard if WW2 was averted.

 

If the Germans were stop punched that early, would the Hindenberg disaster have played out the same? Airships might have continued to play a significant commercial role for quite a lot longer without a very public disaster combined with the research boost the war gave aeronautics. Would possibly also have delayed the onset of the space program, once again by removing the wartime research imperative.

 

I'd suspect in this world, the first time a nuke would be used in anger would be at Supes, because he'd serve in the deterrent role if you're thinking realistically about it (While DKR and Watchmen are both Iron age, both address some of the possible "Superman as Deterrent" style world changes). It's also possible that things would go the way of Golden Boy in the Wildcards series, where Supes would use his powers along side the "Good Guys" to fix the various woes of the world until the politicians get scared and go all McCarthy on him.