Lucius Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Get rid of INT and PRE, then, at least for skill use, and just use grouped skill levels against basic 11- chance of success, with a range of modifiers that include culture and preference. I'm all for that! I suppose we could keep PRE for shock and awe. After decoupling figured Characteristics, the next logical step is to decouple Skills from Characteristics. I'm in favor of consistency. Lucius Alexander I'm consistently in favor of palindromedaries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asperion Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance The biggest problem with this discussion is that we are talking about an abituray subject that each person will rate slightly differently. I will look at a person, a piece of art, a statue, or basically anything else and rate it one way, and you will look at the same person/art/statue/whatever and rate it differently. That makes it very difficult to come up with a hard number that will state how every person in a game sees something. This is greatly different from a stat like STR where X kg = this STR and Y kg = that STR and everyone can agree on that. (DEX actually suffers from this same problem but that is leading into another thread.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted September 4, 2012 Report Share Posted September 4, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance The biggest problem with this discussion is that we are talking about an abituray subject that each person will rate slightly differently. I will look at a person' date=' a piece of art, a statue, or basically anything else and rate it one way, and you will look at the same person/art/statue/whatever and rate it differently. That makes it very difficult to come up with a hard number that will state how every person in a game sees something. This is greatly different from a stat like STR where X kg = this STR and Y kg = that STR and everyone can agree on that. (DEX actually suffers from this same problem but that is leading into another thread.)[/quote'] Is it arbitrary in-genre, though? We're talking "cinematic realism", not real life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Is it arbitrary in-genre' date=' though? We're talking "cinematic realism", not real life.[/quote'] The importance of appearance depends on which film you are watching, so I suppose it is arbitrary even for cinematic reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Yeah, if the hero kisses the hot chick before the end, she usually dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance The importance of appearance depends on which film you are watching' date=' so I suppose it is arbitrary even for cinematic reality.[/quote'] But it's consistent within each film. And it's likely to be consistent within a fictional "world" setting, even if there's multiple films, episodes or books. The beautiful princess will be beautiful to (almost) all who behold her, and that will affect their interactions with her. It may even propel plotlines. Sure, orcs may find her less attractive, but even that may be fairly consistent in its own way. Authors don't tend to have characters react to protagonists or major characters in random, arbitrary, unpredictable and inconsistent ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Ecks Vs. Sever that is all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance But it's consistent within each film. And it's likely to be consistent within a fictional "world" setting' date=' even if there's multiple films, episodes or books. The beautiful princess will be beautiful to (almost) all who behold her, and that will affect their interactions with her. It may even propel plotlines. Sure, orcs may find her less attractive, but even that may be fairly consistent in its own way. Authors don't tend to have characters react to protagonists or major characters in random, arbitrary, unpredictable and inconsistent ways.[/quote'] I agree and have been singing the same song for many years. the most beautiful woman in the world or of two worlds exists in many fictional sources. Inhuman beauty beyound the human norm is mentioned lots. The beautiful heoine , handsome hero is acknowledged as such by multiple people within the story. etc etc etc. As I've mentioned before one of the deciding factors back in the day which won HERO over GURPs was COM as opposed to GURPs tacked on feature (like striking appearance actually) The importance varies to each group obviously but to ours. It just needs to be a characteristic everyone has for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Yes, but, whilst you may well have stories in which beauty is absolute, it still does not have any real effect on interaction skills. Snow White may, in th estory, be the fairest in all the land, but does that mean that everyone is more likely to agree with her oratory? No, it doesn't. The Evil Queen is a reasonably close second (in the story) - does that mean that she gets a bonus to her persuade attempts? No, at least not for that reason. She gets a bonus to her persuade attempts because she can magic you into a puddle of goo and has an army to back her up. Buttercup, at 17, was in the top 20 most beautiful women in the world, and things were only getting better, but did that translate into any kind of respect. No, it did not. Appearance does not translate in cinematic reality to some sort of measuarble effect. You can have a COM characteristic, and you can use it to compare how attractive you are, but I'd have to argue that all that you can really use attractiveness for is distraction and seduction, and it doesn't always work as a distratcion either. You can simply describe your character as the most beautiful, you don't need a mechanic to do that. The importance of COM (and for that matter Striking Appearance with the SFX 'beauty/attractiveness') is vastly overstated to the point where I just don't see a need for it. Beauty, if anything, is a negative in most stories: people remember you and/or want to marry you, whatever your view on the matter might be. Anyway, that is where I stand on it - if you find it useful, cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Yes' date=' but, whilst you may well have stories in which beauty is absolute, it still does not have any real effect on interaction skills. Snow White may, in th estory, be the fairest in all the land, but does that mean that everyone is more likely to agree with her oratory? No, it doesn't.[/quote'] But the Huntsman refused to kill her, and the Dwarves took her in when she just showed up at their house. Seems like she made friends easier than most (Charm). The Evil Queen is a reasonably close second (in the story) - does that mean that she gets a bonus to her persuade attempts? No' date=' at least not for that reason. She gets a bonus to her persuade attempts because she can magic you into a puddle of goo and has an army to back her up.[/quote'] We rarely see her use interaction skills so no basis for comment. Buttercup, at 17, was in the top 20 most beautiful women in the world, and things were only getting better, but did that translate into any kind of respect. No, it did not. Appearance does not translate in cinematic reality to some sort of measuarble effect. You can have a COM characteristic, and you can use it to compare how attractive you are, but I'd have to argue that all that you can really use attractiveness for is distraction and seduction, and it doesn't always work as a distratcion either. You can simply describe your character as the most beautiful, you don't need a mechanic to do that. Which would mean you put no point-based mechanics on your character sheet. The importance of COM (and for that matter Striking Appearance with the SFX 'beauty/attractiveness') is vastly overstated to the point where I just don't see a need for it. It shows up in some source material. Should we not have the ability to emulate that? Striking Appearance allows for a character who is consistently able to use his or her appearance to achieve positive results. Beauty' date=' if anything, is a negative in most stories: people remember you and/or want to marry you, whatever your view on the matter might be.[/quote'] That sounds a lot like Distinctive Features, doesn't it? If you want your appearance to have negative effects, there's the mechanic. Why should the mechanic for positive effects then be removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Well, yes: good looks are more distinctive features than anything else: I'm struggling to think of a story where someone is able to consistently use their appearance to acheive positive results. Even if you can think of some then they still remain rare exceptions. Even with Snow White there is no evidence that it was her looks that swayed the Huntsman and the Dwarves and not her sweet and decent nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Well, yes: good looks are more distinctive features than anything else: I'm struggling to think of a story where someone is able to consistently use their appearance to acheive positive results. Even if you can think of some then they still remain rare exceptions. Even with Snow White there is no evidence that it was her looks that swayed the Huntsman and the Dwarves and not her sweet and decent nature. I don't think that can be separated out that way. If Cinderella were still homely and plain when she went to the ball, the prince would have taken no notice of her at all. Part of the "seduction" sub-skill of Charm is definitely using your looks to your advantage. Which is why SA, the default version, gives a bonus to Charm, Persuasion and Conversation, and to PRE attacks which tend to have a similar theme/focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megaplayboy Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance I'm struggling to think of a story where someone is able to consistently use their appearance to acheive positive results. You mean, aside from every other episode of the Dukes of Hazzard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance You mean' date=' aside from every other episode of the Dukes of Hazzard?[/quote'] Yes, apart from that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Constitution's main in-game effect is to check if you get stunned when you hit. Resisting disease is a pretty far distant secondary effect unless you are running a Plague scenario. Checking if someone is stunned if they are hit for a certain amount of damage really has no realworld parallel, it is purely a game conceit. And so is COM a game conceit-so what's your point? Why apply reality to one characteristic but not another? That's not logical. Btw they have done studies and the more attractive and or well dressed the better treatment you get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Even with Snow White there is no evidence that it was her looks that swayed the Huntsman and the Dwarves and not her sweet and decent nature. And if we go with the defintion from Champions II that I posted, this is a great example of manners and personality influencing the level of COM score (positively) and the Evil Queen would have a lower COM because she is a beautiful ice-hearted . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance I don't think that can be separated out that way. If Cinderella were still homely and plain when she went to the ball' date=' the prince would have taken no notice of her at all. Part of the "seduction" sub-skill of Charm is definitely using your looks to your advantage. Which is why SA, the default version, gives a bonus to Charm, Persuasion and Conversation, and to PRE attacks which tend to have a similar theme/focus.[/quote'] I'm completely with the idea that looks are important when someone is after having a relationship with you, whether it be a short or long term one...and that you can leverage that but it is highly situational. Being good looking does not make you more persuasive generally, otherwise supermodels would all be lawyers. I'd actually argue that good looks could be very relevant in the use of any social interaction skill - but only in the right circumstances. Not just social interaction - it might give you an edge when gambling or even playing chess - if you use your looks as a distraction. Now when I say 'looks', what I mean is not just sitting there looking good, I mean working it. Making eye contact, licking your lips, flashing some flesh - putting it out there. Mind you, so long as you are not a minger, you can probably do all that stuff anyway. That is more about being sexy than being beautiful. Sex is a distraction, and a lure. Being good looking may make it easier to distract your target, or get their attention, so, yes, you can certainly argue with force that good looks can have an effect on social situations, but not necessarily the obvious one. Cinderella may well have wound up with Prince Charming if she had been plain, but being gorgeous certainly made it easier to catch his eye in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance One of those situations that matters is first appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance And so is COM a game conceit-so what's your point? Why apply reality to one characteristic but not another? That's not logical. Btw they have done studies and the more attractive and or well dressed the better treatment you get. That is a bit out of context: Hugh and I were talking about game mechanisms and I was suggesting that any effect that appearance has should be consistent between two specific individuals, because whatever you perceive someone's looks to be today, you will almost certainly see them the same way tomorrow. I'm not suggesting that appearance is irrelevant to social situations, I'm just saying that the sort of situations where it does make a difference are often not really relevant in RPGs, and where they are relevant simply adding a bonus, however you do that mechanically, is probably not the best way to simulate the effects of appearance. If you want to go into a bar and chat someone up to get some information from them being good looking, and dressed to kill will certainly make it easier to get your foot in the door. If, indeed, it is your foot you are worried about getting in, and a door you are worried about getting it into. Having got your opening through, will being good looking get you more information, or make it easier to get information? I'd suggest not. That's veering into a different area though: what mechanical system should we use is probably a discussion for a different thread. Here's a question for you all: can you adjust (drain/aid) Talents? I'm just trying to work out how Striking Appearance is built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance One of those situations that matters is first appearance. Yes, indeed. Looks get you in the door, get you noticed, but probably have a very limited role onceyou are past that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloodstone Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance That is a bit out of context: Hugh and I were talking about game mechanisms and I was suggesting that any effect that appearance has should be consistent between two specific individuals' date=' because whatever you perceive someone's looks to be today, you will almost certainly see them the same way tomorrow.[/quote'] Somone has clearly never experienced the beer goggles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Somone has clearly never experienced the beer goggles! Ha! Good point well made:drink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyber624 Posted September 5, 2012 Report Share Posted September 5, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance From 6e1 447: Striking Appearance: +5 PRE (5 Active Points), Only For Interaction Skill Roll and Presence Attack Bonuses where Appearance Might Be a Factor (-1),(Total Cost:3 (Rounded up to allow for difference between "all characters" and "limited group of characters" ); or also add Only Among Specific Group (-1) (Total Cost: 2 pts). So basically, it does exactly what com used to do, function as a limited form of PRE.... at a SLIGHTLY elevated cost. (1/2 point more expensive, and you dont get any for free) and you can adjust talents with gm's permission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance Yes' date=' indeed. Looks get you in the door, get you noticed, but probably have a very limited role onceyou are past that point.[/quote'] Depends upon who the other party is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: Attractiveness - Comeliness Vs. Striking Appearance In any event, however you think physical looks affect others, explain how Striking Appearance doesn't accomplish what you're trying to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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