Fantasy Race Bloat?

[Orion]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Markdoc has replied better than I can, but I'll add a little here.

 

Why do you assume that the person who wants to play Cat People or Bear people are choosing to do so because of Stats? They may like the culture. They may always play Cat people because they like the Species.

 

I see three reasons to choose a race: 1) you like the culture, 2) you like the stats, 3) you like the visual appearance. Any or all of these are good reasons. But, as I said in my earlier post, if all races are going to be played the same, then culture can't be one of the reasons. If they all have the same culture, then something else must be the reason. For most players, this will be the stats.

 

As a note, I was mostly thinking of CrosshairCollie's posts when I made mine, and I specifically was discussing when the culture is the same, regardless of race. If the cultures are the same, if the game ignores culture, or if the players ignore culture and make all races alike, then I personally see no point of even noting which race the character is from. Every character could be from the same race, or every one a different race, and it makes no difference to how they are played culturally. Seems like just calling them all humans is just as easy.

 

But, the different races may have different stats in some game worlds. Dwarves are strong, elves are quick, etc. So if the culture is the same for all races, it seems like stats is a pretty good reason to choose a race. Many of the stats could just as easily be assigned to a human, but it could be each race has special abilities that causes them to be chosen. I'm reminded of my days of playing MUDs. Many different racial choices, which may or may not limit starting characteristics. They rarely had any real affect once you reached hero level. But to see the way they were played, or the way that people described their characters, and you'd think every single one of them was human.

 

You the GM are making a judgement based on some prejudiced idea that you can tell people how to Roleplay. You figure that people don't play a dwarf "right" that they are trying to munchkin the game by picking the best species for their class. Who are you to tell a player that the character they built in their head isn't "Being played right". You may be running the game, but I think you have lost sight of the fact that you are just another player. If you annoy enough of your players by limiting their choices or by running game worlds they don't care for. You may find that you are a GM with no players.

 

I'd much rather be a GM with no players, than a GM with players that have no respect and/or interest in the world I create. Want to play in my world - here's what it looks like. If it doesn't look fun, then no problem - we'll look for another setting. Running a world takes a lot more investment than playing in one. I can happily play in a lot of worlds that I would outright refuse to run. I know I have a limited set of settings that I can run well. I create worlds to make me happy - finding players that also like those worlds is a happy accident.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I believe what is at issue here is not how many races (however you define them) will 'fit' in your campaign before it breaks", but whether it's a problem for you when a player brings in a 'new' race that you don't already have in the campaign. As I've said before, this really isn't a problem if your setting includes (or allows) any prospective "new" race they propose to bring in, but what about the low-fantasy campaign where that sort of non-human just doesn't exist and non-humans are viewed with awe and fear because of their mysterious powers?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Have you considered that you might have that 'happy accident' more often if you'd loosen up a bit? It's not all about you, even when you're the GM.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Also' date=' as I've stated above, I don't really think there's a bad reason to play a character except for trying to spoil anybody else's fun. If you want to pick a race based on stats or cool-powers-factor, that's fine with me; it's your business. If you want to pick it because you think they look neat, that's fine too. Backstory, culture, all good. So long as you're having fun and not ruining anybody else's fun in the process, I honestly don't care why you're playing your character of choice. I will, however, get ROYALLY ticked off if you try telling me I'm playing my character wrong because I'm not conforming to stereotypes.[/quote']

 

I don't think it's anything to do with saying that "you are playing your character wrong" - more "That race doesn't exist in my game". Since, as you describe it, race has nothing in particular to do with culture, you cold play a chracter exactly the same way even if it was a different race: in a situation like that, racial stereotypes make no sense. For me, a game where race is essentially the same as a funny haircut or having distinctive tattoos (people notice it easily, but it's really not that big a deal) might be fun to play, but it's not something that I'd ever want to run myself (and to honest, if I tried it, I suspect I'd lose half my current players). And that's OK - as noted, people have different goals in their gaming: as a player in D&D, I'm perfectly happy with the Mos Eisley cantina style of play. It's a D&D trope, along with predator-heavy ecologies and economies with odd wealth imbalances: as a player, I don't worry about any of those things. As a GM, though, I do worry about those things.

 

And this is not purely a style thing: those decisions shape your game world, shape your play style and in turn shape the kind of stories you can build games around.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Have you considered that you might have that 'happy accident' more often if you'd loosen up a bit? It's not all about you' date=' even when you're the GM.[/quote']

 

I have tried it. For years, it was my standard style of game. For a while I ran a group with elves, a dwarf, some half demons and a cyborg.

 

But in truth, I never really liked it that much and the players never really took it seriously. As a GM, I'm now much happier that I have tightened up (so to speak ). And in general, a happier, more engaged GM, leads to happier, more engaged players. Certainly exiling all the fantasy races to the margins of myth doesn't seem to have reduced the fun value in the game any, and it certainly hasn't hampered my ability to find and keep players.

 

Now, campaign before last, we had one player who had never played Hero, but had played a lot of White Wolf games and he really, really, really wanted to play a lycanthrope. Since the game was set in medieval fantasy Japan, I let him go with Hengeyokai - which was fine with him (Ratkin/Nezumi, same, same) - but in actual play, of course, he was initially bitterly disappointed. His Crinos form could not casually brush aside the strongest human warriors like puny children (and didn't drive them into hysteria), since he had the same points to build his PC with as all the other players. He was envisaging a character from a completely different game and if he had gotten what he wanted, it would have ruined the game for everyone else (including me).

 

Now, despite my misgivings, the character still turned out to be a fun addition to the group and worked well ... but what made that happen was the player's decision to build his character's development not around his lycanthropy (which after a while, faded into the background: his ability to turn into a largish rat got waaaay more play than the crinos humanoid warrior rat form) but around his interactions first with his father (a nobleman who spurned him as illegitimate and the residue of an unfortunate liason with a woman who was .... suspect, at best) and later with the other PCs who initially regarded him with loathing (partly due to his "curse" but mostly because of his father's treachery). In short, what made the character memorable, fun and in the end, the groups default leader, was the way he overcame their repugnance and in the end earned first their trust and then their loyalty. In short, his human relationships were what defined the character - and that was all player: I didn't plan that. If he had only been an illegitimate human son, with unwholesome interests ... it would not have made the slightest difference, actually. (Edit: and would have forced both me as GM and the other players in character, to make less awkward fudge-arounds for his PC's sake. We did a lot of that, initially).

 

cheers, Mark

[Orion]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I realized some time back, mostly because of discussions on this forum, that the setting is what primarily interests me about gaming. I love the history and culture of the fictional game worlds much more than the actual playing. I love Tolkien for the sweeping history and backstory in the Silmarilion much more than for the LoTR storyline. Eddings has more characterization than Tolkien, but skimps on history. No surprise that I found Eddings to be a crashing bore. Similarly, when I fall in love with a campaign setting, it is always because of the attention to detail and large backstory. I play Traveller and Battletech because of the settings, not their rules. Harn is my favorite fantasy setting. When I use Harn, I expect to play in that setting, not just a setting that uses it as a map.

 

My enjoyment is from detailing a little section of a published world, or in creating my own. Actually getting players is secondary. I would say that I'm probably not that good of a GM for most players. Players that like open-ended, player-driven stories in a tightly controlled setting will be happy with me. Those that just want to hang out, change the setting, or play that special snowflake won't be happy. I love the "The 13th warrior", and would enjoy playing something similar, but I'd never GM it. I can do Vikings. I can do Arabians. I can't do both at the same time, whether to contrast the cultures or just because someone wants to play something completely different. If we're going to do a Viking story, everyone is a Viking, and we're going to be immersed in Viking culture up to our eyeballs. Some people like to have that character that is different or unique. I actively discourage that. If a player enjoys that, more power to them, but I have no interest in telling that kind of story. It's not that I won't, it's that I can't do that kind of story. I'm not interested in it, so I can't come up with good storylines. My storylines are different, and being different is not what they are about.

 

As mentioned earlier, who controls the races and cultures of a game world? Which comes first, the setting, or the characters? I've been a player in both types of campaigns, but only enjoy being the GM in the first. This is one of those things that needs to be discussed with the players before a game starts. I will try to design a world based on player input, and am in fact doing so right now. But, I expect the players to make a character that fits the setting, not to bring a character that needs to be fitted into the setting. The way I see it, if they didn't want to play in that setting, they should have said so up front so that something everyone was happy with could have been chosen.

 

And like most of the time I post online, I am unhappy with my answer here, because I just don't communicate ideas well this way.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Similarly, when I fall in love with a campaign setting, it is always because of the attention to detail and large backstory. I play Traveller and Battletech because of the settings, not their rules. Harn is my favorite fantasy setting. When I use Harn, I expect to play in that setting, not just a setting that uses it as a map.

 

 

Sometimes that detail and breadth creates its own set of problems. I love Harn. Its my favorite published setting. I use it a lot. But it also has some idiosyncratic dissonance that drives me nuts. One) it can't decide on a historical time-period and squashes in social, economic, and military elements from a 600 year stretch of history; Two) its religion has ten "medieval churches" that serve as a traditional fantasy McPantheon that also force mystery cults and pseudo-druidism into the works; Three) it directly imports Sindarin and Khudzul directly from Middle Earth (they aren't tolkein carbon copies... they're the real deal); and Four) also includes Cthulu-esque elder gods in the mix on top of portals to places like... Planet Earth.

 

To my mind, its trying to do too much and be all things to all who play it. Harn is amazing, but like a lot of settings it could use more focus. Being more narrow allows you to rationalize it and have it make more sense, as well. I run it as an Anglo-Saxon analog and have given the religion a major re-build. That alone fixes most of the problems and lets me work from a clearer set of assumptions. As for Dwarves and Elves, they are there, but I don't encourage players to play them. If they do, fine, but its on them to make a character who can 1) fit with the campaign, and 2) actually thinks like a dwarf or an elf.

 

As for whether there should be fantasy races, or how many, that's entirely subjective. We're arguing preferences. As for me...

 

I don't have inherent objections to non-human player races, but if their culture doesn't reflect their non-human natures, and doesn't rise above being an analog for a human culture we have all seen before, it seems like an added layer of world-design complexity without any real payoff. The norse dwarves and elves were a part of the prevailing religious mythology, and Tolkein cued on that when he created Middle Earth. They were culturally significant, as well as having their own cultures, histories, and ideas. In most worlds they are just humans in rubber suits with kewl powers. When that is the case, they are more bother than benefit. And, when I'm the GM, I don't really want to focus on putting huge effort into creating a bunch of believable non-human races? How many is too many? It depends on how much time and effort I am willing to invest.

 

I have run an Elvish campaign before. For that campaign everyone was an Elf. And I worked out the history, mythos, politics, and culture of the elves for the game. It was a wonderful campaign my players still remember fondly. It was a ton of work just to do one race in believable detail, let alone several. Doing that for several races would have been the work of several campaigns. I don't have that kind of time. Humans are no different. And I completely disagree that humans are boring. A believable human culture is a lot of work. On the other hand, we have easy analogs we can fall back on from our own history and periods. REH did this a lot: its very easy to play a character from hyboria because a small amount of reading and thinking will tell you what he was ripping off (in general, sometimes misinformed terms) from our own history and myths. Like Howard, I prefer to put my energy into characterization, plot, and story - to tell a rip-roaring good yarn. Building believable races? Not where I usu. want my efforts focused. I'd rather focus on the story.

[Burrito Boy]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I realized some time back, mostly because of discussions on this forum, that the setting is what primarily interests me about gaming. I love the history and culture of the fictional game worlds much more than the actual playing. I love Tolkien for the sweeping history and backstory in the Silmarilion much more than for the LoTR storyline. Eddings has more characterization than Tolkien, but skimps on history. No surprise that I found Eddings to be a crashing bore. Similarly, when I fall in love with a campaign setting, it is always because of the attention to detail and large backstory. I play Traveller and Battletech because of the settings, not their rules. Harn is my favorite fantasy setting. When I use Harn, I expect to play in that setting, not just a setting that uses it as a map.

 

My enjoyment is from detailing a little section of a published world, or in creating my own. Actually getting players is secondary. I would say that I'm probably not that good of a GM for most players. Players that like open-ended, player-driven stories in a tightly controlled setting will be happy with me. Those that just want to hang out, change the setting, or play that special snowflake won't be happy. I love the "The 13th warrior", and would enjoy playing something similar, but I'd never GM it. I can do Vikings. I can do Arabians. I can't do both at the same time, whether to contrast the cultures or just because someone wants to play something completely different. If we're going to do a Viking story, everyone is a Viking, and we're going to be immersed in Viking culture up to our eyeballs. Some people like to have that character that is different or unique. I actively discourage that. If a player enjoys that, more power to them, but I have no interest in telling that kind of story. It's not that I won't, it's that I can't do that kind of story. I'm not interested in it, so I can't come up with good storylines. My storylines are different, and being different is not what they are about.

 

As mentioned earlier, who controls the races and cultures of a game world? Which comes first, the setting, or the characters? I've been a player in both types of campaigns, but only enjoy being the GM in the first. This is one of those things that needs to be discussed with the players before a game starts. I will try to design a world based on player input, and am in fact doing so right now. But, I expect the players to make a character that fits the setting, not to bring a character that needs to be fitted into the setting. The way I see it, if they didn't want to play in that setting, they should have said so up front so that something everyone was happy with could have been chosen.

 

And like most of the time I post online, I am unhappy with my answer here, because I just don't communicate ideas well this way.

 

At the risk of being punched in the face, I have to ask: Would you let a player play a dwarf in a Viking game? Dwarves, giants, and trolls are part of Viking myths but I'm wondering whether you'd let a player play one or if you think those races would be less "special" if one happened to be part of the group.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Viking dwarves differ from D&D dwarves.

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Have you considered that you might have that 'happy accident' more often if you'd loosen up a bit? It's not all about you' date=' even when you're the GM.[/quote']

 

Among the accidents I've encountered was the half-drow-half-storm-giant munchkin build that I have mentioned elsewhere on the boards.

 

The biggest issue I see, aside from the powergamers, is the tolerance of the rest of the group for exceptions. If the playgroup wanted to play a tight middle-earth campaign, the guy who insists on playing a Thri-Kreen is going to cause problems. Or culturally, if it were an elven barbarian, it would still cause problems. ME is one of those settings where race and culture are closely related. If the group, and the setting, are less rigid then maybe a Thri-Kreen would work.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Viking dwarves differ from D&D dwarves.

 

And?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Among the accidents I've encountered was the half-drow-half-storm-giant munchkin build that I have mentioned elsewhere on the boards.

 

The biggest issue I see, aside from the powergamers, is the tolerance of the rest of the group for exceptions. If the playgroup wanted to play a tight middle-earth campaign, the guy who insists on playing a Thri-Kreen is going to cause problems. Or culturally, if it were an elven barbarian, it would still cause problems. ME is one of those settings where race and culture are closely related. If the group, and the setting, are less rigid then maybe a Thri-Kreen would work.

 

See I'd have no trouble with a Half Drow/Half-Stormgiant in one of my campaigns. I've never been so rigid in my settings that it couldn't work. That said, the player in question would probably be disappointed somewhat that everyone else was about as badass.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

See I'd have no trouble with a Half Drow/Half-Stormgiant in one of my campaigns. I've never been so rigid in my settings that it couldn't work. That said' date=' the player in question would probably be disappointed somewhat that everyone else was about as badass. [/quote']

 

I don't think it was a "setting" issue. I think it was an "abuse the system to create a power-gamer's wet dream," issue. But, that's for Old Man to clarify. I'm just a third-party observer.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

See I'd have no trouble with a Half Drow/Half-Stormgiant in one of my campaigns. I've never been so rigid in my settings that it couldn't work. That said' date=' the player in question would probably be disappointed somewhat that everyone else was about as badass. [/quote']

 

Yeah. This is the thing: it's down to personal preference. But I'm guessing that in this particular case, that since I can't think of a reason for "Half Drow/Half-Stormgiant" that doesn't come dripping in mozzarella, this was probably a pure powergame build.

 

cheers, Mark

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Yeah. This is the thing: it's down to personal preference. But I'm guessing that in this particular case, that since I can't think of a reason for "Half Drow/Half-Stormgiant" that doesn't come dripping in mozzarella, this was probably a pure powergame build.

 

cheers, Mark

Absofrickin'lutely.

 

But still could be fun. I've run more than one campaign at that power level...they can be fun. Though tend not to last as long as starting at 1st level/beginning career guys.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Absofrickin'lutely.

 

But still could be fun. I've run more than one campaign at that power level...they can be fun. Though tend not to last as long as starting at 1st level/beginning career guys.

 

Actually, I've no no problem with powergaming builds: I'm guilty of that myself!

And I've run a campaign where all the PCs were immortals with bitchin' power builds: that was enormous fun.

But I draw the line at weird half-this/half-that-with-a-template-on-top builds, because ... it's just not cool to twist the system until it bleeds.

 

cheers, Mark

[teh bunneh]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I've got a lot of fantasy races in my FH game (as mentioned before), and I do my best to make them unique but still playable. A lot of the flavor for their cultures comes from their genetics. Elves can live for hundreds of years. What would that be like? How would just that simple fact effect the culture and personality of a people? Pretty drastically, IMHO, so in my world the Elves have some odd idiosyncracies that humans find simply baffling. Some big, some little, but all with a reason behind them.

 

That said, each individual is different, and PCs by their very nature tend to be unique. So if someone wants to play a different race, they will still infuse that character with his own personality. But I do encourage my players to think about the differences between races ("Imagine these people that you're adventuring with -- your friends -- will be dead and buried in just a few short years, while you'll be still just as strong and vital as you are today. How does that affect the way you view them, and the way you view yourself?").

 

And near-immortality is just one of the many physical things that makes them different. They can see in the dark. They tend to be more physically graceful, but less muscular than humans. And so on. The other things have an effect on their culture (and their personalities) as well. Now, an Elf who grows up among humans is not going to pick up on all of the things that make Elvish culture different, but they most likely still aren't going to just be a human-with-pointy-ears.

 

And the other races have their own physical, cultural, linguistic, and personal idiosyncracies as well. Some of them are pretty well-developed, others are just placeholders for rough ideas, until a player wants to actually play one in a game and I have to come up with something.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

If you're trying to reach that magic balance, it can sometimes be tough.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Actually, I've no no problem with powergaming builds: I'm guilty of that myself!

And I've run a campaign where all the PCs were immortals with bitchin' power builds: that was enormous fun.

But I draw the line at weird half-this/half-that-with-a-template-on-top builds, because ... it's just not cool to twist the system until it bleeds.

 

cheers, Mark

Perhaps. And this is only an issue with your D20 Level/Class based systems of course.

A FH Half-Drow/Half-Storm Giant would still be built on the same points as everyone else.

 

For my Pathfinder/D&D games a character like that would basically make work for the GM to develop what bonuses/abilites you get from something that has never existed before; after that...they're just the flavor of the month aesthetics.

 

For a fun NPC, I recently made a noble drow sorcerer with the Celestial Bloodline - poor bastard was the sixth child (and only son) of a captured celestial who was bread with the (Incredibly Insane) Matron's daughter with the idea that it would create more daughters of noble power (I like the Pathfinder versions being more inclusive to other demons rather than jsut the one) - not only did the boy have the noble powers (rare) and the sorcerer powers (less rare) he was "afflicted" with a good outlook in life. So he was immediately slain.

 

And raised by his father who escaped with the boy.

 

Thanks to the advanced race guide, for the ideas...he has low-light rather than darkvision and avoids the day blindness...and one of his spells is disguise self.

[Jas]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

In a perfect world, I would appreciate a handful of races but not too many. Half a dozen, maybe eight, not much more than that. And I'd want them to be integrated into society, not the standard "dwarven city", "elven city" idea. I would want them to be part of the cultures in the area they inhabit, and having that culture be informed by the interrelation of the two (or hopefully more) kinds of people.

 

I mean, there's a whole lot of fertile ground to be covered in one area where the long-lived elves are the ruling caste, having amassed significant power - and another where elves are specifically not allowed any civic authority as they have too long of a view, and tend to make decisions that ignore the short-term needs of the shorter-lived folk. Throw in a place where xenophobic elves kill every other sentient they encounter and another where elves live in hiding after a major uprising against them, and... well, the list goes on.

[Jas]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

But I draw the line at weird half-this/half-that-with-a-template-on-top builds, because ... it's just not cool to twist the system until it bleeds.

 

You know, someone on Reddit said they wanted help with a half-elf/half-dragon build for some D20 variant and I felt bad - because I assume that person is about twelve years old, strictly based on the mary-sue sounding race choice.

[Orion]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

At the risk of being punched in the face' date=' I have to ask: Would you let a player play a dwarf in a Viking game? Dwarves, giants, and trolls are part of Viking myths but I'm wondering whether you'd let a player play one or if you think those races would be less "special" if one happened to be part of the group.[/quote']

 

It would depend on the setting setup. If I knew ahead of time that the player wanted a Norse legend type of dwarf character, I'd consider it. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I wouldn't be against it either. I'd construct a pseudo Norse legend type world, liberally ripping of the old legends, and it would work. But if the campaign was already set up, and the idea was for a bunch of Viking traders that carried out a bit of larceny and looting on the side, I'd flat out reject the idea. Both are Viking-style campaigns, but they are still very different. I wouldn't allow drow in a Middle-earth campaign, or orcs in a Deryni campaign. But if the players wanted drow and orcs, then we can start a new campaign using the Forgotten Realms.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Among the accidents I've encountered was the half-drow-half-storm-giant munchkin build that I have mentioned elsewhere on the boards.

 

That's a balance issue (and really, that was useful? The level adjustment would have neutered him ... but I digress), which is tangentially related. But if the build weren't overpowered, would it have been an issue? Say, if it had been Fantasy Hero and he was on the same points as everybody else.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

That said' date=' each individual is different, and PCs by their very nature tend to be unique. So if someone wants to play a different race, they will still infuse that character with his own personality. But I do encourage my players to think about the differences between races ("Imagine these people that you're adventuring with -- your friends -- will be dead and buried in just a few short years, while you'll be still just as strong and vital as you are today. How does that affect the way you view them, and the way you view yourself?").[/quote']

 

This is preferential to what I usually get, which is 'You must be aloof and detached and snotty ...' and so forth. Me, I would think this would cause elves to have a high suicide rate ... they would almost literally find themselves BORED TO DEATH and need to find something to do to occupy their time to keep from going crazy. I'd play such an elf like he had a daredevil death wish and the attention span of a ferret on crack (slightly hyperbolic).

[Steve]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

This is preferential to what I usually get' date=' which is 'You must be aloof and detached and snotty ...' and so forth. Me, I would think this would cause elves to have a high suicide rate ... they would almost literally find themselves BORED TO DEATH and need to find something to do to occupy their time to keep from going crazy. I'd play such an elf like he had a daredevil death wish and the attention span of a ferret on crack (slightly hyperbolic).[/quote']

 

Oddly, sometimes Doctor Who comes across like this.