Fantasy Race Bloat?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I still think that depends on the rest of the group. That character concept would cause any number of problems when the other players want to play a tight Hyborian Age campaign' date=' for example. Or Harn, or Dark Sun. At best it's appropriate mainly for high fantasy settings, regardless of how well any palindromedary can play it. That's the point I was trying to make with an extreme example--to the degree that an RPG campaign is an exercise in shared storytelling, if a given character is far enough outside the parameters of the other players' idea of the campaign, it's going to be disruptive simply by being there.[/quote']

 

Ok, but again I think this is a Player issue not an issue with race bloat. And maybe I'm fuzzy on the OP's intent here. If I were playing in a Hyborean campaign, I'd expect to be playing one of the setting's races, or in Orion or Markdoc's settings, I'd expect to play a human - one of a very limited cultural groups for the former not as sure on the later. But rest assured if I was a powergaming munchkin who got off on tweaking the other players, I wouldn't need to be an elf to do it. I've seen it in Hyborean campaigns already and we were all human.

 

One's setting is going to dictate the available class/race combos to a great degree and anything a player does to be unique is adjudicated by the GM beforehand. Most of the disruption I read about comes from players pushing their vision of a character and a GM simply accepting it to the detriment of the rest of the players. That's not an intrinsic failure of the campaign settings' number of intelligent races.

 

I also prefer no blanket alignment races save for outsiders and even that isn't set in stone.

[The Main Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

None of the above' date=' or is that what you were trying to say - that seeing only those two positions is a kind of failure of imagination?.[/quote']

More like they are two extremes along an axis and that the observation of such could lead to an agreeable medium. The deduction of such a medium could further lead to a theoretical breaking point of "race bloat." There may be other factors of course, and people still have different tastes.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I think we are on the verge of a more nuanced approach to racial presentation in RPGs. That is to say' date=' should races be monocultural stereotypes or should they really blend with their cultural surroundings and only have small, inherent behavioral deviations?[/quote']

 

My take on the matter is this: once you get outside of stock humans (essentially, those as close as possible to "our" humans in basic psychology), there is much more freedom to showcase races that have notably divergent mental processes.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I think we are on the verge of a more nuanced approach to racial presentation in RPGs. That is to say' date=' should races be monocultural stereotypes or should they really blend with their cultural surroundings and only have small, inherent behavioral deviations?[/quote']

 

More like they are two extremes along an axis and that the observation of such could lead to an agreeable medium. The deduction of such a medium could further lead to a theoretical breaking point of "race bloat." There may be other factors of course' date=' and people still have different tastes.[/quote']

 

I don't even see them as two extremes on an axis. More like two points on a plane.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says "fantasy race" sounds like a track and field version of "fantasy football."

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

To clarify:

 

{

That is to say' date=' should races be monocultural stereotypes or [/quote'] should there be a variety of cultures for any given race, possibly different roles within cultures, and certainly each individual should have a unique personality regardless of cultural norms}

 

would be an example of extreme points on a kind of axis.

 

So would

 

{should each race be notably unique in some way that makes selecting it a meaningful choice in character creation and gives it its own place in the overall setting or

should they really blend with their cultural surroundings and only have small' date=' inherent behavioral deviations?[/quote']}

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks axis should have a head at each end

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

The palindromedary says "fantasy race" sounds like a track and field version of "fantasy football."

 

Fantasy NASCAR exists. [/derail]

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

NO Jedi.

Unless you're an Illithid.

 

Illithid Jedi. Cool concept.

 

Can't claim it as my own.

Inspired by this.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44902[/ATTACH]

 

 

Obi-wan Cthulhu!

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Obi-wan Cthulhu!

You're our only hope!?!?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

You're our only hope!?!?

 

We are so screwed.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Cool. This is the thing that bugs me in a lot of games' date=' is when someone remarks "I'm an (X), therefore I have to (Y)", where X is a race, class, or just about anything. I'm an elf, so I have to hate cities. I'm a dwarf, so I have to hate goblins. I'm a wizard, so I have to be a bookworm nerd. I'm a paladin, so I have to be a humorless stick-up-the-ass. The list goes on ... it's one thing if you choose to follow the stereotypes, but it drives me nuts when people think that they're ironclad requirements.[/quote']

 

Heh. In my world, there's a bunch of common Elvish superstitions. One of them is that you're never supposed to sleep on the ground. Another is that you're not supposed to wear white clothes unless you're in mourning. Both of them are considered very bad luck. I mentioned this to one of my players, who was playing an Elf, and he scoffed. "You're not supposed to wear white??? That's just a silly superstition! It has no scientific basis! Not at all logical, like never sleeping on the ground! Sleeping on the ground is dangerous, everyone knows that!"

 

He played the character as scoffing at a great many Elvish customs, and embracing a bunch of different ones for no apparent reason.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Heh. In my world, there's a bunch of common Elvish superstitions. One of them is that you're never supposed to sleep on the ground. Another is that you're not supposed to wear white clothes unless you're in mourning. Both of them are considered very bad luck. I mentioned this to one of my players, who was playing an Elf, and he scoffed. "You're not supposed to wear white??? That's just a silly superstition! It has no scientific basis! Not at all logical, like never sleeping on the ground! Sleeping on the ground is dangerous, everyone knows that!"

 

He played the character as scoffing at a great many Elvish customs, and embracing a bunch of different ones for no apparent reason.

 

That's actually kinda cool.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I've known Humans like that

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it's bad luck to be superstitious

[teh bunneh]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

That's actually kinda cool.

 

Thanks. It was a fun game.

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Just asking for a LITTLE respect for different playstyles. Assuming that people who don't like your playstyle are Powergamers' date=' and only choose other races because they have 'l33t p0wrz' is more than a little insulting to people who like those races because they like being something that isn't human.[/quote']

 

I never said anything about any single playstyle . . . I was simply saying that the burden of the number of races becoming too overwhelming is going to depend on the individual group, and what the GM and players want to do with it. If group A wants to focus on every minute detail between two individual races and has fun doing so, more power to them; on the other hand, if group B simply wants different races because of the various abilities that they offer, and everyone's okay with that, then great, they're still having as much fun as group A . . . I've never said that the differences between the races has to be focused on in order to validate the reason for non-human races . . . I simply said that the question in the OP is going to vary between each group out there because of the varying differences in playstyles.

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Why do you assume that the person who wants to play Cat People or Bear people are choosing to do so because of Stats? They may like the culture. They may always play Cat people because they like the Species.

 

It's different from wearing clothing mostly due to the fact that a Non Human can't not be NonHuman. A Scotsman is only different from an Englishman until he opens his mouth. They are still both humans. The Scotsman dressed like a Englishman doesn't look that different. It's only when he opens his mouth that someone can tell he's not English. A Cat Person is furry, will always be furry. Even if she shaves off all of her fur her skull is shaped differently. It's the GM's job to play all of the NPC's and their job to play out that NPC's prejudices. Also, Being non human is a larger disadvantage in certain circumstances. ie the Cat Person is in a party who has to go though the Dog People's territories (the Dog People being a long time adversary and hated by the Cat people and who actually hate Cat People back). Well the Cat Person can't hide their species. So the party has to work harder to deal with the Tribe of Dog people. So choosing a race is a MUCH bigger choice than what color Cloak do I wear.

 

You the GM are making a judgement based on some prejudiced idea that you can tell people how to Roleplay. You figure that people don't play a dwarf "right" that they are trying to munchkin the game by picking the best species for their class. Who are you to tell a player that the character they built in their head isn't "Being played right". You may be running the game, but I think you have lost sight of the fact that you are just another player. If you annoy enough of your players by limiting their choices or by running game worlds they don't care for. You may find that you are a GM with no players.

 

And oddly enough, you just validated my entire argument with this post, even after you "attacked" it (not really upset, everyone has their own opinion, was just pointing this out)

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Perhaps the problem isn't race bloat but people who insist on running character types that are inappropriate to the setting?

 

This.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

And oddly enough' date=' you just validated my entire argument with this post, even after you "attacked" it (not really upset, everyone has their own opinion, was just pointing this out)[/quote']

I really don't think she did.

[The Main Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

This.

To take it one step further, perhaps "race bloat" is whenever a newly proposed race clearly does just that by its sheer concept/inception.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

To take it one step further' date=' perhaps "race bloat" is whenever a newly proposed race clearly does just that by its sheer concept/inception.[/quote']

 

Does this? Or does that?

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

. . . I have been on receiving end of GMs who say 'You're an (X), you can't do that/must do this' and I find it incredibly stifling and annoying.

 

In this situation, the GM failed to meet the burden of multiple races, imo. Yeah, he was focusing on the race/culture/etc. but that is no reason to limit the player's options. If player 1 wants to play an elf, and doesn't like the "culture" the elves have in the GM's setting, then he can, feasibly play a different type of elf, but by doing so, he is playing an elf who is shunning his own culture, and would suffer negative reactions from other elves, more so than members of a different race, imo. These negative reactions may even trickle over into members of other races . . .

 

Yes, trying to play a civilized, cultured member of a savage, barbaric society is a stretch, but if the player is willing to go through the effort, then let him go for it, as long as the player understands the GM may need to reign the character in from time to time, just to save verisimilitude . . .

 

Also, if player 2 wants to play an elf from LotR, and that concept doesn't mesh too well with the established elves of the campaign setting, then mayhap the GM might point out another race that does fall into the concept the player wants . . .

 

Yes, I understand that there are those players out there who are unwilling to play anything beyond a single concept/culture/race/personality; I've had one in my games for the last ten years. And those players are hard to satisfy if their archetypical character doesn't fit into the GM's world. At this time it's on both the player and the GM to find a compromise . . . If the player is new, and is unwilling to budge, then the best thing for the group might just be to say good-bye to him, and let him find the group that supports his archetype. On the flipside, if the player has been part of the group for a long time, and the new campaign setting doesn't allow his archetype, he may view this as a slap to the face by the GM . . .

 

But i digress, we're getting more into group dynamics and away from the OP . . .

[The Main Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Does this? Or does that?

 

You know; it.

[drunkonduty]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

For me the definition of too many races/species/etc* is very much campaign dependent. In some games there may be no real limit, up to and including players dreaming up their own race and asking for it to be included; for example in a Star Wars or Planescape game. But other games may insist on a very limited number of playable races or even limit the whole campaign to but one sapient species. As an example my current FH game where Humans are the only species available for PCs; other sapient species are monstrous and inimicable to Humanity.

 

An in-depth example of Fantasy Race Bloat (FRL):

A few years ago I played in a D20 game in which all players were told to play Orcs. We were the survivors of an Orc horde that had just been wiped out (and had it's charismatic leader killed.) I rocked up to the first session with my little Orc racial purist to find that one of the players was playing a Drow. I was told that the player in question always played Elves and wouldn't have played otherwise. OK, I can live with this. The Drow's player then started to tell the rest of us that we were "playing our characters wrong" and we should be scared of her character "because she's a Drow." Now this effed me off no end, I don't like being told how to play my character. Then take into account that my character at best had contempt for all non-Orcs. I had perfect in character reasons to not be pushed around by the pushy little Drow wizard. This of course led to constant head-butting between us, the players. I assume she drew up this particular character because she wanted to be boss of the group, both in- and out of- game. This might have been OK if she'd 1) checked with the other players in advance and 2) designed a character that could realistically expect to be the boss within the campaign limits. She did not and thus trouble ensued. To add to the trouble we also had a player design a half-Ogre/half-Orc. This guy was doing it purely for the min-max munchkinism reasons. His character was so much more powerful than the rest that the (first time) GM could not come up with any challenges to his character that would not wipe out the rest of the characters.

 

So for this campaign Race Bloat started at 2 and became untenable at 3. I admit that this is rather at the extreme end of things. But the GM DID call for a specific campaign. And the 2 players who (for different reasons) went against that ruined the fun of the game, at least for me (And I'm pretty sure the GM. To my knowledge she has never run a game again.)

 

Tangent: So I think the GM has every right to be a total hard-arse when it comes to what they will and won't allow in a game. Be it player species or classes or powers or whatever.

 

 

*hereafter referred to as species.

 

Cheers all. :-)

[dmjalund]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44929[/ATTACH]

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

For me the definition of too many races/species/etc* is very much campaign dependent. In some games there may be no real limit, up to and including players dreaming up their own race and asking for it to be included; for example in a Star Wars or Planescape game. But other games may insist on a very limited number of playable races or even limit the whole campaign to but one sapient species. As an example my current FH game where Humans are the only species available for PCs; other sapient species are monstrous and inimicable to Humanity.

 

An in-depth example of Fantasy Race Bloat (FRL):

A few years ago I played in a D20 game in which all players were told to play Orcs. We were the survivors of an Orc horde that had just been wiped out (and had it's charismatic leader killed.) I rocked up to the first session with my little Orc racial purist to find that one of the players was playing a Drow. I was told that the player in question always played Elves and wouldn't have played otherwise. OK, I can live with this. The Drow's player then started to tell the rest of us that we were "playing our characters wrong" and we should be scared of her character "because she's a Drow." Now this effed me off no end, I don't like being told how to play my character. Then take into account that my character at best had contempt for all non-Orcs. I had perfect in character reasons to not be pushed around by the pushy little Drow wizard. This of course led to constant head-butting between us, the players. I assume she drew up this particular character because she wanted to be boss of the group, both in- and out of- game. This might have been OK if she'd 1) checked with the other players in advance and 2) designed a character that could realistically expect to be the boss within the campaign limits. She did not and thus trouble ensued. To add to the trouble we also had a player design a half-Ogre/half-Orc. This guy was doing it purely for the min-max munchkinism reasons. His character was so much more powerful than the rest that the (first time) GM could not come up with any challenges to his character that would not wipe out the rest of the characters.

 

So for this campaign Race Bloat started at 2 and became untenable at 3. I admit that this is rather at the extreme end of things. But the GM DID call for a specific campaign. And the 2 players who (for different reasons) went against that ruined the fun of the game, at least for me (And I'm pretty sure the GM. To my knowledge she has never run a game again.)

 

Tangent: So I think the GM has every right to be a total hard-arse when it comes to what they will and won't allow in a game. Be it player species or classes or powers or whatever.

 

 

*hereafter referred to as species.

 

Cheers all. :-)

 

I see those as a player issue (in the case of the Drow) and a balance issue (in the case of the Half-Ogre), neither is a setting issue.

[drunkonduty]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Yeah, I agree that the players involved are the main causes of the issues. Neither a drow nor a half-ogre are so much out of keeping that they broke verisimilitude. Their back stories were worked into the group's.

 

But one of the aspects of "race bloat" that's been mentioned several times through the thread has been the "why" of wanting more and more races. I think my little example works in that context: it shows that "race bloat" can be used as a legitimate* tool by players who are keen to screw up the game. And it also serves to illustrate my point that for some campaigns race bloat can start early. I agree that the inclusion of the two races do not impact upon setting (Hell, it was a Forgotten Realms campaign, it could have been a hell of a lot whackier) but it did impact on the game.

 

*I considered putting that in inverted commas but, actually, it is legitimate to want a variety of species to play options.