Fantasy Race Bloat?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

This is preferential to what I usually get' date=' which is 'You must be aloof and detached and snotty ...' and so forth. Me, I would think this would cause elves to have a high suicide rate ... they would almost literally find themselves BORED TO DEATH and need to find something to do to occupy their time to keep from going crazy. I'd play such an elf like he had a daredevil death wish and the attention span of a ferret on crack (slightly hyperbolic).[/quote']

 

A mind that is different from a human's might be used to different levels of certain stimuli (or lack of stimuli).

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Oddly' date=' sometimes Doctor Who comes across like this. [/quote']

 

If that was my inspiration, it was subconscious.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

This is preferential to what I usually get' date=' which is 'You must be aloof and detached and snotty ...' and so forth. Me, I would think this would cause elves to have a high suicide rate ... they would almost literally find themselves BORED TO DEATH and need to find something to do to occupy their time to keep from going crazy. I'd play such an elf like he had a daredevil death wish and the attention span of a ferret on crack (slightly hyperbolic).[/quote']

 

It is fairly typical for Elves to pursue a particular career with a single-mindedness that shocks humans, becoming incredibly gifted at it. Then, after 20 (or 40, or 80) years, abandon that career and go after something else. They also tend to settle in one place for a few decades, then without warning move elsewhere and put down new roots. But no, there is not a very high suicide rate, as Elves tend to have a morbid fear of death (since it doesn't occur naturally very often among their people, they don't quite have the same understanding of it as the shorter-lived races do).

 

They're an odd people, to say the least.

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

That's a balance issue (and really' date=' that was useful? The level adjustment would have neutered him ... but I digress), which is tangentially related. But if the build weren't overpowered, would it have been an issue? Say, if it had been Fantasy Hero and he was on the same points as everybody else. [/quote']

 

It was Fantasy Hero, and he was on the same points as everyone else. But he picked his race combo to get around campaign restrictions on magic usage and STR mins while also evading the disads that would usually go along with them. We kind of rolled our eyes and let him play it anyway, and as it turned out the powergamer build was mitigated by the disads of the player.

 

Still, it did annoy the rest of us that a player would so egregiously break campaign conventions in an obvious attempt at munchkinism. Powergaming is one thing, but half-assedly painting a BS character concept on your walking collection of rules-stretching powers is something else entirely.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

It was Fantasy Hero, and he was on the same points as everyone else. But he picked his race combo to get around campaign restrictions on magic usage and STR mins while also evading the disads that would usually go along with them. We kind of rolled our eyes and let him play it anyway, and as it turned out the powergamer build was mitigated by the disads of the player.

 

Still, it did annoy the rest of us that a player would so egregiously break campaign conventions in an obvious attempt at munchkinism. Powergaming is one thing, but half-assedly painting a BS character concept on your walking collection of rules-stretching powers is something else entirely.

 

That sounds more like a problem with the player and not the race.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

That sounds more like a problem with the player and not the race.

 

Agreed.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

It was Fantasy Hero, and he was on the same points as everyone else. But he picked his race combo to get around campaign restrictions on magic usage and STR mins while also evading the disads that would usually go along with them. We kind of rolled our eyes and let him play it anyway, and as it turned out the powergamer build was mitigated by the disads of the player.

 

Still, it did annoy the rest of us that a player would so egregiously break campaign conventions in an obvious attempt at munchkinism. Powergaming is one thing, but half-assedly painting a BS character concept on your walking collection of rules-stretching powers is something else entirely.

 

A "spirit of the rules" situation?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

It is fairly typical for Elves to pursue a particular career with a single-mindedness that shocks humans, becoming incredibly gifted at it. Then, after 20 (or 40, or 80) years, abandon that career and go after something else. They also tend to settle in one place for a few decades, then without warning move elsewhere and put down new roots. But no, there is not a very high suicide rate, as Elves tend to have a morbid fear of death (since it doesn't occur naturally very often among their people, they don't quite have the same understanding of it as the shorter-lived races do).

 

They're an odd people, to say the least.

 

But I suppose this is the question (and it's not intended to be an accusation, and I apologize if it comes off that way) ...

If I built my elf character and explained that was how and why I was going to play it, would you tell me 'No, you're doing it wrong, do it my way'?

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

But I suppose this is the question (and it's not intended to be an accusation, and I apologize if it comes off that way) ...

If I built my elf character and explained that was how and why I was going to play it, would you tell me 'No, you're doing it wrong, do it my way'?

 

Well, if most elves are your stereotypical D&D elves like this ...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44896[/ATTACH]

And you wanted to play the rabid, death-courting elf, I wouldn't say you were playing it wrong (it's your PC, after all) but most NPC elves would think you were crazy.

On the other hand, a lot of NPC humans think adventurers are a pretty dodgy lot in the under-the-hat department anyway, so it's not like you'd stand out.

 

But as I have pointed out, for me at least, it doesn't have the slightest bit to do with "You're playing your character wrong" more "There are no elves in this game: having a race that is interfertile with humans but lives lives ten times longer than them wandering about is going to completely change the nature of the setting!"

 

cheers, Mark

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Well, if most elves are your stereotypical D&D elves like this ...

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44896[/ATTACH]

And you wanted to play the rabid, death-courting elf, I wouldn't say you were playing it wrong (it's your PC, after all) but most NPC elves would think you were crazy.

On the other hand, a lot of NPC humans think adventurers are a pretty dodgy lot in the under-the-hat department anyway, so it's not like you'd stand out.

 

But as I have pointed out, for me at least, it doesn't have the slightest bit to do with "You're playing your character wrong" more "There are no elves in this game: having a race that is interfertile with humans but lives lives ten times longer than them wandering about is going to completely change the nature of the setting!"

 

cheers, Mark

 

So we'll "mark" you down as Bloat Level: 2

[bluesguy]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

So we'll "mark" you down as Bloat Level: 2

 

I would like to have what he is having as well:D;)

[teh bunneh]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

But I suppose this is the question (and it's not intended to be an accusation, and I apologize if it comes off that way) ...

If I built my elf character and explained that was how and why I was going to play it, would you tell me 'No, you're doing it wrong, do it my way'?

 

No, of course not (and don't worry, I didn't take is as an accusation). All people are individuals. While something might be a-typical of the Elvish race, adventurers in general are a-typical people (it takes a strange sort to leave home and family to run off and kill monsters for a living). Besides, what you described isn't that unusual among Elves in my world. If you put that info into his background -- how he tends to behave and why -- I don't think I'd have any problem.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

No' date=' of course not (and don't worry, I didn't take is as an accusation). All people are individuals. While something might be a-typical of the Elvish race, adventurers in general are a-typical people (it takes a strange sort to leave home and family to run off and kill monsters for a living). Besides, what you described isn't that unusual among Elves in my world. If you put that info into his background -- how he tends to behave and why -- I don't think I'd have any problem.[/quote']

 

Cool. This is the thing that bugs me in a lot of games, is when someone remarks "I'm an (X), therefore I have to (Y)", where X is a race, class, or just about anything. I'm an elf, so I have to hate cities. I'm a dwarf, so I have to hate goblins. I'm a wizard, so I have to be a bookworm nerd. I'm a paladin, so I have to be a humorless stick-up-the-ass. The list goes on ... it's one thing if you choose to follow the stereotypes, but it drives me nuts when people think that they're ironclad requirements.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

There very well may be requirements, if a race has Psychological Limitations/Disadvantages/Flaws/Etc of varying strengths.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

There very well may be requirements' date=' if a race has Psychological Limitations/Disadvantages/Flaws/Etc of varying strengths.[/quote']

 

Which I would consider to be some pretty horrible design, in the case of Psych Lims at least. I loathe the idea that one's personality is set by one's genetics.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I loathe the idea that one's personality is set by one's genetics.

 

Could also be a divine being (god)/magic/the moral philosophy one is literally wholly or partially formed out of (in the case of those originating from law, chaos, good, evil, etc). Hell, even elemental heritage may play a part, if certain elements are associated with personality tendencies (earth elementals are slow and contemplative, air elementals are quick and eager, etc).

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

That sounds more like a problem with the player and not the race.

 

Right. I could play the half-Drow, half-Storm Giant and create no problems at all.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wants to play an Elven Vampire Jedi and a Beholder Monk

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

NO Jedi.

Unless you're an Illithid.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

NO Jedi.

Unless you're an Illithid.

 

Illithid Jedi. Cool concept.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Illithid Jedi. Cool concept.

 

Can't claim it as my own.

Inspired by this.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44902[/ATTACH]

[The Main Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I think we are on the verge of a more nuanced approach to racial presentation in RPGs. That is to say, should races be monocultural stereotypes or should they really blend with their cultural surroundings and only have small, inherent behavioral deviations?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

*shrug*

I think everyone has a valid system in place. We have our preferences when playing or GMing. I don't give that too much thought when developing my campaigns. The background/World I've been working on since forever has several races but the cultures are mostly based on Humanity as the humans are the parent race of most of the others.

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Right. I could play the half-Drow' date=' half-Storm Giant and create no problems at all.[/quote']

 

I still think that depends on the rest of the group. That character concept would cause any number of problems when the other players want to play a tight Hyborian Age campaign, for example. Or Harn, or Dark Sun. At best it's appropriate mainly for high fantasy settings, regardless of how well any palindromedary can play it. That's the point I was trying to make with an extreme example--to the degree that an RPG campaign is an exercise in shared storytelling, if a given character is far enough outside the parameters of the other players' idea of the campaign, it's going to be disruptive simply by being there.

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I think we are on the verge of a more nuanced approach to racial presentation in RPGs. That is to say' date=' should races be monocultural stereotypes or should they really blend with their cultural surroundings and only have small, inherent behavioral deviations?[/quote']

 

None of the above, or is that what you were trying to say - that seeing only those two positions is a kind of failure of imagination?

 

I still think that depends on the rest of the group. That character concept would cause any number of problems when the other players want to play a tight Hyborian Age campaign' date=' for example. Or Harn, or Dark Sun. At best it's appropriate mainly for high fantasy settings, regardless of how well any palindromedary can play it. That's the point I was trying to make with an extreme example--to the degree that an RPG campaign is an exercise in shared storytelling, if a given character is far enough outside the parameters of the other players' idea of the campaign, it's going to be disruptive simply by being there.[/quote']

 

I was trying to be kind of half-way sarcastic. You're being much more effective than I by spelling it out - a character concept can be inherently disruptive if it clashes with the setting. Vondy, I believe, has a good story about running a cold war espionage game and the guy who came in and insisted on playing an Elf.

 

On the other hand, if it's a comic book superhero game your character can not only be an Elf, but a vampire and a Jedi. You comics fans can't tell me you you haven't seen origin stories just as convoluted and bizarre.

 

But sometimes it matters who's running the character, or rather, how they're playing it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Great, now the palindromedary wants me to write up an Illithid Jedi. And somehow write a background that lets it fit into a weird conpsiracy atomic horror early cold war game.

[Vondy]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Vondy' date=' I believe, has a good story about running a cold war espionage game and the guy who came in and insisted on playing an Elf.[/quote']

 

That would be I. I'm the genre nazi: "No Elf Bond vs. Smersh for you!"

 

On the other hand' date=' if it's a comic book superhero game your character can not only be an Elf, but a vampire and a Jedi. You comics fans can't tell me you you haven't seen origin stories just as convoluted and bizarre.[/quote']

 

Seen them? Sure. Enjoyed reading them? Very rarely. Sometimes oddball ideas work well as one-offs, or a what if? But as a regular part of an ongoing story? The phrase "this will not end well" keeps coming to mind. Just because its "comic books" or "superheroes" doesn't mean it has to incorporate bizarre characters or stories that feel like a square peg in a round hole. Comics also have genres, styles, and sometimes worlds with fairly consistent/rationalized/naturalistic approaches to the origins and modus operandi of super-powers and super-humans. Just because some publishers throw in the kitchen sink doesn't mean your game has to go there. Your position by way of challenging question is rooted in fallacy? So what if I've seen comics that were bizarre? I'm not running a game based on those comics. There is a point where you tell the player with the unwieldy concept to get with the program. This is not to say you shouldn't reward thinking outside the box, or that players should have a say in what kind of genre/style the game encapsulates, but the GM also has to run it - and make sure it works. Once the majority of the group has signed onto a vision, its time to play the vision or sit it out.

 

But sometimes it matters who's running the character' date=' or rather, how they're playing it.[/quote']

 

Sometimes. And sometimes, no matter how good they are, it aint going to work.

 

Great' date=' now the palindromedary wants me to write up an Illithid Jedi. And somehow write a background that lets it fit into a weird conpsiracy atomic horror early cold war game.[/quote']