Monolith Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Originally posted by Chaosliege I agree with this completely. The Champions have been around so long, you'd think they'd be more powerful. I could understand back in the BBB they were a starting level Superhero group. You need to keep in mind that 5th Edition is a different game world than past editions. The new Champions Universe has no real connection to the old CU, outside of the fact that there are 50 or so characters being used from the old universe. The Champions in the CU have only been a hero group for a few months, and are the same power level as any other beginning-level character. Those characters are not the "icons" of the new CU within the universe itself; they are just the only characters we have stats for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Posted March 2, 2003 Report Share Posted March 2, 2003 Generally speaking, the iconic characters are intended to be examples of common heroes like the ones you will build when you buy the book. Accounting for experience everytime they republished the book would make them overpowered examples. Adopting a new set of iconic starting level characters each time gives the game less identity. I think the beatdown was well orchestrated but I'd like to make a suggestion for next time they do this sort of thing: Have players write the showdowns and then submit them to the publisher of the respective games. The publisher picks one and submits it for the beatdown. It's technically more work for the publisher, who'd have a lot of reading to do, but it gets the players involved more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
death tribble Posted March 3, 2003 Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 Blasphemy Have to say that I think Kinetic is a stinker. That's just the way I see it. I did not vote in Slipstream vs Kinetic as I liked neither of them. I voted against Caliburn because the Champs guy looked better but yes I voted for Red Phoenix against Defender. And I voted for Sentinal because I read his history and thought it good. I agree about Ironclad. Just not that good IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug McCrae Posted March 3, 2003 Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith The Champions in the CU have only been a hero group for a few months, and are the same power level as any other beginning-level character. Those characters are not the "icons" of the new CU within the universe itself; they are just the only characters we have stats for. Fair enough. And I wasn't aware of the Justice Squadron and Sentinels you mentioned in another post. But why were the Champions entered in a "Who's the most iconic?" competition, then? That's just confusing people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted March 3, 2003 Report Share Posted March 3, 2003 Originally posted by Doug McCrae Fair enough. And I wasn't aware of the Justice Squadron and Sentinels you mentioned in another post. But why were the Champions entered in a "Who's the most iconic?" competition, then? That's just confusing people. Well, almost any character can be an icon to some extent. The Champions just happen to be low-powered icons. The simple fact, to me anyway, just deals with the fact that the Champions bear the game's name, and thus represent the game. There is also the fact that there are no published stats for the Justice Squadron or the Sentinels (and it doesn't appear as though they will be forthcoming too quickly either). If DOJ used the Justice Squadron for the showdown everyone would be asking: "Who are they? I've never seen stats for them. How I am supposed to know what they can do?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcorp Man Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith You need to keep in mind that 5th Edition is a different game world than past editions. The new Champions Universe has no real connection to the old CU, outside of the fact that there are 50 or so characters being used from the old universe. I think that's what bugged me the most about this new edition, the wide arm changes. It feels more like "Steve Longs," campaign then the Champions Universe I've used since 1st Edition. honestly I liked the 4th edition Iconics better, but if you look the 5th edition are basically the same characters, just designed different.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 Originally posted by Starcorp Man I think that's what bugged me the most about this new edition, the wide arm changes. It feels more like "Steve Longs," campaign then the Champions Universe I've used since 1st Edition. I have a feeling that Steve Long's campaign is more along the lines of Hudson City (Dark Champions) than Champions Universe (four-color). Personally, I like the changes. After 20 years the CU was getting stale (same villains, same villain groups, same heroes, etc). The changes keep just enough of the old, and add just enough of the new, to add some freshness back into the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperPheemy Posted March 4, 2003 Report Share Posted March 4, 2003 As someone else said, the Champions characters are designed as examples for a role-playing game. They're examples of what an "average" 350 point hero could look like. Effort was made to include background-sympathetic skills, and a sense of well-rounded balance. In contrast, the Guard characters are designed to be "iconic" in the sense that they are an integral part of the default campaign world. In this sense, they are not necessarily well-rounded average starting characters. One cannot really look at Sentinel and use his stats as a guideline for creating an "average" starting character. Its a fundamental difference in presentation. The Champions are not designed to be the internationally-recognized supergroup bringing hope to the entire world. Maybe one day they will be, but they represent the player's characters in the Champions Universe Story. The Champions are designed to ultimately play second fiddle to the player groups in the CU campaign. On the other hand, the Guard is the "World's greatest superteam" in their universe. They're the type of superteam that gets calls from the President when Kreuzritter tries shifting the moon from it's orbit. The Gurard is presented as the group that the players should aspire to be. To put it another way. When Defender shows up at the end of an adventure to give the PCs an "attaboy" speech and hearty handshake, it's like a welcome to the superhero community, sort of a next door neighbor in power armor. However, when the Sentinel shows up to shake your hand, it's supposed to be an early landmark event in the characters' carreer. Like getting a visit from Superman, or Captain America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutant for Hire Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith I have a feeling that Steve Long's campaign is more along the lines of Hudson City (Dark Champions) than Champions Universe (four-color). Personally, I like the changes. After 20 years the CU was getting stale (same villains, same villain groups, same heroes, etc). The changes keep just enough of the old, and add just enough of the new, to add some freshness back into the world. Personally, I would have been happier if they advanced the old 4th edition universe. Have some supervillain teams fall, other ones arise, shakeups in the lineups and so on. Have the 4th edition Champions as background characters in the universe and have a new team as the presented team in the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starcorp Man Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Mutant for Hire Personally, I would have been happier if they advanced the old 4th edition universe. Have some supervillain teams fall, other ones arise, shakeups in the lineups and so on. Have the 4th edition Champions as background characters in the universe and have a new team as the presented team in the book. I agree, that would have been good in my opinion, instead it was torn down and created over again... for the second time (Fuzion). The feel just isn't the same, it's hard to describe a feeling but that's how it feels, it just doesn't feel the same. By doing it, it makes people who use the old world, less likely to pick up supplements for the new universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted March 5, 2003 Report Share Posted March 5, 2003 Originally posted by Mutant for Hire Personally, I would have been happier if they advanced the old 4th edition universe. Have some supervillain teams fall, other ones arise, shakeups in the lineups and so on. Have the 4th edition Champions as background characters in the universe and have a new team as the presented team in the book. There is some sense of that - the demise of Professor Muerte and the changes in Eurostar's lineup. The Champions remain the 'sample' characters (and I note that they are published in the Champions genre book as such) to showcase 350-point superheroes. There is no hero team whose members' character sheets are presented in Champions Universe, though there are several team (and team members) mentioned by name; from the historical accounts some of these characters are likely very experienced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrswing Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 I have to agree about not being impressed by the new Champions. I especially don't understand why only Defender was retained from the original bunch - he always struck me as a pretty dull hybrid of Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic. Either come up with something all-new or just update the original characters. Ironclad is my least favourite character but that's primarily because of the visual, I find him very un-appealing with the klingon-like forehead and stuff... I also have to agree that I am not too happy about the restarting of the universe for this edition. I didn't consider the 4th ed. universe broken or to have run out of steam. Bringing it up to date would have been more to my liking - though that doesn't mean I hate the new elements. In fact, I think the new Champions Universe edition is a fine supplement in itself, it's just that I personally would have preferred a continuation of the old one as it was quite satisfactory for a superhero rpg background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nato Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Personally, I'm glad that a new universe has been started up. It's been so long since the last official (4th Ed) Champions Universe stuff came out, that I think it's nice to have a fresh look at it. I personally like the new villains, and new versions of old favorites, so much better than just about any of the previous edition ones. I think the quality of writing has greatly improved too, so I have very few complaints about the new team or setting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamashii2000 Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Originally posted by Starcorp Man I think that's what bugged me the most about this new edition, the wide arm changes. It feels more like "Steve Longs," campaign then the Champions Universe I've used since 1st Edition. honestly I liked the 4th edition Iconics better, but if you look the 5th edition are basically the same characters, just designed different.. I kinda view the switch from 4th edition to 5th as a kinda 'crisis on champions earth' sort of thing, history gets reset..the characters are kinda the same..but there are differnces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Originally posted by MisterVimes Oh... fine... *George Bush is a Doo-doo-head! *The Scandanavisnas are barbarian animals by allowing the sun to shine at night! *Moderate politicians are stealing babies and feeding them to Michael Jackson! Is that better? LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rage Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Originally posted by Acroyear Magic can't be used to gate people from other worlds? Why not? That's the point. The spacemen with rayguns aren't magic, themselves, but with "magic powers" you could certainly summon them. If a magician summons a lion to fight someone... or a snake or whatever (both much more commonly accepted than spacemen, I would assume) neither of the animals, themselves, are magical. The lion doesn't attack with "magic" claws and the snake doesn't attack with "magic" snake venom. It's just claws and snake venom. Similarly, spacemen with rayguns are hitting you with lasers or whatever, not eldritch bolts. But if they are just summons then you still have to see if they will actually work for the caster, and if its a weapon like a ray gun and they are continually having points tied up for it then surley a dispel magic could be ruled to send them back through the void? (Using crap about astral displacement and the like) Magic is a valid EC effect. Saying that it isn't because the powers used aren't neccisarily magic (e.g creating a pile of meat to drop on captain vegan) so that magic defence isn't effective is like saying a fire guy isn't allowed to burn a part of a wooden beam so the wooden beam drops on top of Lord Imune to Fire Man. The SFX is common in the EC and thats what matters. By the by when I do a mage I don't do EC but a VPP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith I would bet someone could also come up with proper examples to fit many of those powers into an EC as well; I just could not think of any. The point is that Fire Guy is not really limited by needing to define his SFX because almost everything works Density Increase--Thats a tough one for fire Ego Attack--Playing on the Mesmeric qualities of fire, this is easily explained away if No Mental Awareness and Range Penalties Apply are taken Growth--Easy; surround oneself with a giant fiery exo form, with an offensive Damage Shield perhaps. Also useful to characters which are actually made up of flame; grow really big and burn stuff with your Affects Physical World Offensive Damage Shield. Mental Illusion--Again, play up the Mesmeric qualities of flame; take a variant 'Requires Eye Contact', defined as target must look at flame. Mind Scan--ditto on this; basically, Mind Scan only vs targets that are looking into a flame. Good Pyromancer or Demonic schtick as well. Multiform--many forms of fiery goodness. Great for characters that have a desolid flame form. Shape Shift--Shape Shift vs Sight for a flame based character that can shape his fire aura into different forms. Shrinking--Again, the fire form based character could use this to make himself the size of a candle flame. Good shtick. Swimming--kind of a tough one, but concievably could boil off water, decreasing water resistance. Telepathy--like the other Mental power, use the Mesmeric properties of Fire; Telepathy, only to read the minds of people looking at a fire. Transfer--Transfer fire powers to fire powers. ---- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killer Shrike Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 As Ive stated before, I personally am much happier with the 5th Ed Champions Universe. I always genially loathed the 4th Ed CU. IMO it was just a huge corny mishmash. The new CU is much more dynamic, cleancut, and vibrant to me, and for the 1st time ever in 13 years of using the HERO SYstem as my primary/default game system, Im running a campaign in the actual CU rather than homebrewing a setting. This is significant because it is something that I never would have done with the 4eCU. Ever. Forget running; I wouldnt even play in a 4eCU campaign. My personal take on 4eCU was easily summed up by 1 word: LAME. I understand that for those who enjoyed 4eCU, its probably a kick in the teeth, but the thing is you get the best of both worlds. You can keep using your existing campaign and incorporate in elements that you like from 5eCU. IMO, YMMV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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