Stacie.Winters Posted June 14, 2014 Report Share Posted June 14, 2014 Champion is kind of a generic term for any heroic figure fighting for other people - a hero in other words. And it has instant name recognition. If the line had always been "x Champions" instead of "x hero" I think it might have helped sales, and still could. Its not like the content of the book isn't immediately obvious from the cover and the subtitle. Champions: Super Hero Role Playing (with superheroes blasing up the scenery). Fantasy Champions: Fantasy Role Playing (with a picture of people fighting a dragon). Pulp Champions: Adventures in the pulp era (guy in a fedora with a pistol), etc. That way products such as Golden Age and Dark Champions are just part of a whole pattern rather than simply subsets of one genre. I like this idea. You have Champions. Then Fantasy Champions, Star Champions, Dark Champions as broad based sourcebooks with an inbuilt setting, and from this they could then do more sourcebooks for each game line. They could do a Fantasy Champions Bestiary One, a Star Champions Guide to Spaceships, or a Dark Champions (insert City Name here) sourcebook.... all these just examples of course. Another great idea would be for them to open the system up to the OGL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted June 15, 2014 Report Share Posted June 15, 2014 I like this idea. You have Champions. Then Fantasy Champions, Star Champions, Dark Champions as broad based sourcebooks with an inbuilt setting, and from this they could then do more sourcebooks for each game line. They could do a Fantasy Champions Bestiary One, a Star Champions Guide to Spaceships, or a Dark Champions (insert City Name here) sourcebook.... all these just examples of course. Another great idea would be for them to open the system up to the OGL. The problem with OGL (as WotC Discovered) is that once the Genie is out of the bag, you no control over the quality of the complete and utter shit 3rd party companies come up with. Granted, in some cases (such as Pathfinder) the 3rd party stuff is BETTER than what WotC put out, but in many cases it was literally shit made out of paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted June 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 The problem with OGL (as WotC Discovered) is that once the Genie is out of the bag, you no control over the quality of the complete and utter shit 3rd party companies come up with. Granted, in some cases (such as Pathfinder) the 3rd party stuff is BETTER than what WotC put out, but in many cases it was literally shit made out of paper. But "Foundation: A World in Black and White" was an excellent d20 superhero game. Far better than the later Mutants & Masterminds. How can you not admire a game that includes heroines' cup sizes in their descriptions? (Yes, I'm being sarcastic.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted June 17, 2014 Report Share Posted June 17, 2014 I see no big difference between shite companies and shite individuals putting out stuff on their own, especially in this day and age of PDF and POD, where most "companies" are single individuals anyway. So if you really want to follow that line of thought, you'd have to curtail hobbyist productions, too. At which point you're really creating a rift between you and your customers. Yes, bad products might "pollute your brand", but you'd need enough 3rd party support to have that issue in the first place, "1st world problems" as the kids say nowadays. If you're not Apple or WotC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacie.Winters Posted June 20, 2014 Report Share Posted June 20, 2014 The problem with OGL (as WotC Discovered) is that once the Genie is out of the bag, you no control over the quality of the complete and utter shit 3rd party companies come up with. Granted, in some cases (such as Pathfinder) the 3rd party stuff is BETTER than what WotC put out, but in many cases it was literally shit made out of paper. I can understand that point and I think that in the last 14 years a lot of people have become well aware of this and the overall quality of OGL products have improved quite a bit... especially after Pathfinder came out. A lot of killer things have come to exist because of the OGL and the good always rises from the crud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted June 21, 2014 Report Share Posted June 21, 2014 I can understand that point and I think that in the last 14 years a lot of people have become well aware of this and the overall quality of OGL products have improved quite a bit... especially after Pathfinder came out. A lot of killer things have come to exist because of the OGL and the good always rises from the crud. Occasionally those turds had a diamond in them. Can't remember which OGL supplement I found it in, but when handling large-scale warfare where the PCs are contributing to their own little portion (think Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli at Helmsdeep) use the following (and I paraphrase since I can't remember it word for word): At the end of each turn (or each day if the party is traveling) Roll Xd10s. Whenever a 10 is rolled, take away that die. Whenever a 1 is rolled, put a die back in the pool. If all the dice are gone, the battle is lost. Where there is overwhelming opposition, take away a die on either a 9 and a 10, and you cannot regain dice unless you roll two ones during the same roll. I've made great use of this for Helm's deep like battles or for when two armies clash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted June 24, 2014 Report Share Posted June 24, 2014 I think Fantasy Hero is as fine a name as any. it doesnt invoke any specific imagery considering the general scope of the book in question. I think it would require a different name only in the context of a specific setting being attached to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superferret Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I read a lot of good alternative names.How about Heroes of Legend or Legendary Heroes or Mystical Champions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted July 17, 2014 Report Share Posted July 17, 2014 I read a lot of good alternative names. How about Heroes of Legend or Legendary Heroes or Mystical Champions? People have complained for years that Dark Champions is a horrible name because it sounds like a genre book for playing Iron Age or "gritty" Batman or Punisher style superheroes when it's actually a genre book for running modern action adventure from spies to military to vigilantes. Now imagine if they named something Mystical Champions. It sounds like a source book for magical superheroes akin to the "Ultimate Mystic". There would be no end to the complaints about how misleading and/or inappropriate the title is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjcurrie Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 People have complained for years that Dark Champions is a horrible name because it sounds like a genre book for playing Iron Age or "gritty" Batman or Punisher style superheroes when it's actually a genre book for running modern action adventure from spies to military to vigilantes. Now imagine if they named something Mystical Champions. It sounds like a source book for magical superheroes akin to the "Ultimate Mystic". There would be no end to the complaints about how misleading and/or inappropriate the title is. There is a big difference between the two. In 4th edition, the book Dark Champions was about playing Iron Age or "gritty" Batman or Punisher style superheroes. That was why many of us objected and thought it was confusing. If the previous book hadn't existed, there would have been less objection. Although I think the fact that many of the genres that are covered by Dark Champions are not what I would consider dark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbywolfe Posted July 18, 2014 Report Share Posted July 18, 2014 Attaching "Champions" to it would still be problematic. Champions Beyond is set in the Champions Universe but Mystic Champions is a generic fantasy book that has nothing to do with Champions? We're still seeing people confused by Champions/Champions Complete/Champions Universe and whether they need the out of print 2 book "core" rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowsoul Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 Adventurers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted July 21, 2014 Report Share Posted July 21, 2014 If the entire line was renamed "x champions" then the confusion would be significantly reduced. And as rjcurrie notes, the confusion with Dark Champions is mostly the fact that it WAS originally for gritty champions adventures. Its like naming a shoe company Nike then expanding it to include wedding dresses and car parts. People are going to associate it with shoes. Plus, there's nothing innately "dark" about spy or modern adventures, but the name is in there. So its more the "dark" part that's the confusing bit than the "champions" part, I suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueCloud2k2 Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Yeah I think Street Champions or something along those lines would be more appropriate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhd Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 Street Champions XVII was the best. Or so I've been told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassandra Posted July 22, 2014 Report Share Posted July 22, 2014 The Heroic Age Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 23, 2014 Report Share Posted July 23, 2014 I know we're not doing the alliterative "Nouns & Nouns" title format, but we go with the WoD style instead. Hero: The Fantasizing Champions: The Legendary Mythic: The Heroism And so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drunkonduty Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Hero: The Fantasizing Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Femmes & Fatales No, wait, that's pulp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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