Considering a magic system

[lordredraven]

Looking for input from players and GMs that experience with the variety of different types of magic costing systems for hero? skill vs direct buy, allowing for frameworks, etc etc. I am considering just using direct buys with frameworks, and some heavy limitations to bring down the costs and still allow for a decent amount of spells. But fantasy hero raises some questions that make me wonder if a skill based might not be better. any advice or experience would be greatly appreciated.Thanks. 

[Ndreare]

Over the years, I have tried many systems. Some requiring pages of explanation and others only a few simple rules. All of them work as long as you have player buy in. Our current game only requires them to take "requires Skill Roll -1 per 10 active points" after that the advantages and limitations placed on the power frameworks represent casting styles.

 

As a note for fantasy games I usually treat Healing type powers as Special powers and Stop powers. I do not like the style some games have of instant heal after every battle. This makes the players play more intelligently IMHO.

[Tholomyes]

The way my current game does it (though, admittedly I'm not a caster) is that there are a certain number of "mandatory" limitations (in quotes, because they're semi flexible), such as Gestures, Incantations and Requires a Roll. So long as the powers have those limitations (or have been bought off with similar limitations, if they don't make sense, like a "Silence" spell won't have Incantations, but might have Extra Time, or something like that), they can be purchased for 1/5th the normal cost, though normal active point limits and the like still apply.In addition all magic users must buy Endurance Reserve which covers all their powers. Granted I'm not playing a magic user, so I don't know it it's broken, however it seems to be roughly comparable to the point-savings from weapons and martial arts.

 

Other powers can be bought, but they tend to be more expensive, so mundane characters can be as interesting, mechanically, as casters, but you don't get the versatility. For example, I'm playing an unarmed bodyguard, who is mechanically like a D&D Monk with the serial numbers filed off. So I have a variable (limited group) naked advantage covering armor piercing strikes, A 'riposte' strike off of a successful block, Autofire, and Does knockback. It doesn't get the discount of magic, but it doesn't require the limitations of magic.

[Lucius]

By default, weapons, armor, and (sometimes) equipment give characters access to certain Powers if a character

1. Buys appropriate Skills, and

2. Has the item.

 

The Powers have certain Limitations, namely: Focus, Real Weapon, STR Min, etc.

 

A spellcaster has access to a greater variety of powers and Advantages (Area Effect, Alternate Defense, etc.) sireo I would think it would be balanced to require more points on Skill AND/OR more restrictive Limitations.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And/or a palindromedary

[NuSoardGraphite]

I highly recommend Frameworks such as a Multipower for lower point games such as those in the 100 to 200 point range. That way the initial cost to buy into spell casting is significant, but after character creation, buying additional spells is inexpensive and mimicks other fantasy RPGs where the character is able to collect a large repetoire of spells to choose from.

 

I personally require my players to find a school or mentor to learn new spells. And some spells are difficult to find a teacher for. then a minimum amount of training time is required (a number of hours equal to the active points of the spell/ability being learned) then after thenrequired amount of training time, the character can make a roll using their Spell Research skill subtracting the Active Point penalty from the skill (this is the basicn ifficulty of learning the spell) and adding bonuses or penalties based on quality of training, facilities used, extra time spent studying (bonus based on the time chart beyond the base hours of study required) and a complimentary skill roll made by the instructor providing a bonus representing the quality of their instructor. (PS Teacher) and if this roll is successful, they spend the xp and learn the spell. If it is unsuccessful, they have to study more then try again.

 

I require similar training times for rogues and warriors who wish to add Talents to their character sheet or new skills.

[bluesguy]

In my current campaign there are two 'levels' of magic.  Anyone can learn a few spells if they want to.  They can't have them in a framework, max. AP is fixed, they can only learn spells which are taught (no spell research), and are generally limited in their abilities.  One of my players has a character with some magic.

 

There are also mages with an inherit ability to use magic.  They have to buy an 'expensive' talent and a VPP (which has a set amount of pool and control points).  These mages can learn all spells in their racial/cultural group.  They can do spell research to develop new spells.  They can also achieve a very high AP level.  But that takes a long time....

 

And lastly each race/culture has their own unique kind of magic.  Characters can only learn their race/culture's magic.  Anyone trying to use magic from different races/cultures at the same time has lead to disaster (sometimes local, regional, national, and global).  This was done deliberately to keep mages from all looking like 'clones' of each other ("He is a wizard, he should cast his fireball and that horde of orcs!").

 

More details here on my Obsidian Portal site

 

 

Previous campaign had very little magic.  Here is a link to its OP Site

[John Desmarais]

My "default" magic system is a VPP that can't be changed during combat time. All spells are bought with a set of limitation that are common to the caster's school. The VPP then sets a firm limit on both the active cost max the caster can deal with and (more roughly) the number of spells he has memorized/prepared/whatever.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Check out my Fantasy Codex, it has a full magic system and a host of spells plus other goodies in it  In the Hero store.

 

Basically you buy the ability to cast spells in different types of magic and power levels as talents, and the spells themselves are either self made, researched, discovered, or bought with cash.

[Nemblamenchisus]

In addition to some of the ideas suggested above, I require purchase of a "Mystical Ability" talent for characters to be able to cast spells. This costs 1/10th of the maximum Active Points in the spells they can cast, and cannot be bought after initial character creation (in theory I might allow it later, perhaps at double cost, if they could come up with a good story for "discovering" an innate magical potential which they were not previously aware of).

[Christougher]

My fantasy campaign plays with several of the ideas mentioned above, plus a few more.  

 

All magic takes Required Skill Roll, and must Cost END.  Each of the four elemental schools has a different set of limitations, required to take -1/2 and can go higher, to establish a different "flavor" to the magic.  Air magic requires Incantations/Gestures, Earth magic requires reusable foci, Fire magic requires expendable components/reagents, Water magic requires...dammit, drawing a blank, I'll have to look it up.  Other limitations are available to all styles (Extra Time, Extra END, etc).

[mhd]

I'm currently doing a skill-based system where the point cost of the spells don't factor in at all. So basically the spell itself is treated like equipment and the skill similar to combat skill levels. I wouldn't recommend going with a 3+2 point skill cost system then. Before I changed the skill costs to 1+1 (for all skills) we used "domain" skills (e.g. mind, fire, transformation) and "spell familiarity".

 

The active point costs are just used to establish a rough ceiling for the power and of course for the skill roll penalties.

 

Skill adders are pretty cost-effective for a setup like this, of course.

 

(And yes, I also noticed that I basically re-invented GURPS Magic.)

[Jkeown]

Check my Ravenna Grimoires thread for the full copy of Ravenna Public. It contains my spell system.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The details of my magic system are as follows:

 

It is based on the Three Realms of Magic from Rolemaster/Shadow World.  Basically magical radiation/energy known as Essaence permeates the world (and the solar system) and can be manipulated by those trained to do so, or those with natural born abilities, talents or magical mutations.  Spellcasting developed deep in antiquity and was originally simply known as Essaence.  But over time, as the Essence Lords destroyed themselves, and the faerie and mortal races clawed themselves out of the dark ages, spellcasting began to split into three realms:  Essence, Channeling and Mentalism.

 

ESSENCE:  This is the Realm of the classic fantasy wizard.  It represents academic knowledge of the Essaence, how it functions and interacts with physical reality and how to manipulate it to change said reality.  It is Intelligence based.  Typical limitations include; Requires Skill Roll (Essence)*, Incantation (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Extra Time-full Phase activation (-1/2), Subject to Essence fluctuations (-1/2) 

 

CHANNELING:  This is the Realm of the classic fantasy cleric.  It represents magical power as bestowed upon a caster by a supernatural entity of great power such as a deity, a demon lord or other powerful supernatural forces.  It is Presence based.  Typical limitations include: Requires Skill Roll (Channeling)*, Incantation (-1/4), Focus-Obvious/inaccessible [holy symbol] (-1/2), Subject to the whim of the patron diety (-1/4), Subject to Essence fluctuations (-1/2)

 

MENTALISM: This is the Realm of the classic fantasy mystic.  It represents magical power which originates from within the caster, focused and shaped by their Will.  It is Ego based.  Typical limitations include: Requires Skill Roll (Mentalism)*, Concentration (-1/4), Extra Time-full phase activation (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Subject to Essence fluctuations (-1/2)

 

ARCANE: The "4th Realm", it is the original realm which represents manipulation of the Primal Essaence itself.  Spells of this realm are less focussed and less specialized but can be very far-reaching and extraordinarily destructive.  It is based on all three mental Characteristics (the skill roll is determined by averaging Int, Pre, and Ego).  Typical limitations include: Requires Skill Roll [at -1/5 Active] (-1), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Extra Time-full phase (-1/2).

 

Note that the limitation, "Subject to Essence Fluctuations" means that the areas background Essence can effect the magic.  In an area of zero magic, spells just wont work, no matter the realm (except Arcane).  Essence Storms are a thing where it causes magic to go haywire, draining magic or boosting it, or causing it to go chaotic.  Casting spells during an Essence Storm is completely and utterly unpredictable.  Arcane magic, however is completely stable and not affected by null zones or Essence storms.

The limitation, "Subject to the whim of patron deity" simply means the Channeler has to follow the tenents of their faith and the will of their patron, or the may find themselves bereft of their powers.  Also, the deity may at any time deny the Channeler access to any of his spells, snuffing out a spell as the Channeler casts it or causing it to have some other effect.  This should be rare.  However, on the flip side, if the Channeler is under duress, the deity may boost the power of the spell at his or her discretion (I guarantee you this will not happen often) if it serves their purposes.  Or just for the hell of it.  Whatever.

 

All spellcasters have a new derived Characteristic known as ESSENCE (ESS) which is determined by adding INT, PRE and EGO together, then dividing by 2.  Thus an average character with 10 in all three Characteristics has an ESS of 15 (10+10+10)/2 = 15.  The character's Essence score acts like Endurance which fuels the character's magic spells.  To increase ESS costs 1cp for every +2 ESS and it has a Normal Characteristic Maxima of 50 (for most mortal characters), with an absolute maximum of 100 (there are ESS boosting magic items...Endurance Reserves...available in the game)

 

Spells are purchased in a Multipower with each slot representing individual spells.  Combined Powers are perfectly okay to buy in a single slot, as long as the combined Active Point cost does not exceed the allotted points in the Multipower Pool.  The Pool represents the amount of magical power available for the character to use.  All spells must cost Endurance to cast.  If a spell calls for a 0 End power, the Cost Endurance limitation will be applied to that individual spell slot.

 

The Multipower itself has the Realm-based limitations applied to it's cost, which affects all spells of that Realm.  ALL SPELL POOLS MUST HAVE REQUIRES A SKILL ROLL, NO EXCEPTIONS.  In general, Multipower pools must have at least -1 in Limitations applied to them and a maximum of -2.  Additional limitations may be applied to each individual spell as necessary.

 

Characters may learn more than 1 Realm.  They all draw off of the same pool, but Variable Limitation must be applied to the pool.  This increases the cost of the initial pool, but opens up quite a bit of variation and versatility to the character.  They may now pull spells from 2 or more Realms of Power.  When casting spells from the appropriate Realm, the requisite Limitations and guidelines must be observed.

 

Spellcasting requires a skill roll and a penalty of -1 per 10 active points in the spell is applied (-1 per 5 active points for Arcane magics!).  Failing a skill roll means the spell fizzles and the caster looses the Essence anyway.  critically failing the skill roll (always a roll of 18, or double the roll after penalties.  For example, a character with a Essence roll of 16 or less, casts an 80 active point spell at -8.  That gives him a chance of 8 or less to cast the spell.  If the character rolls a 16 or more, the spell is considered a critical failure) then the character has had a mishap, either the spell goes awry or the caster internalizes the spell, doing physical or mental harm to him or herself. (there is a chart)  A success means the spell goes off as normal.  A critical success (rolling half or less of the skill roll) means the character casts the spell but spends only 1/2 the Essence.

 

There are many ways to increase one's chance to cast a spell.  Taking extra time to cast the spell gains +1 per step on the Time chart.  Spending extra Essence gains +1 per X2 Essence spent. (this requires a Spell Mastery roll).  Utilizing ritual materials will gain a material bonus (+1 to +3 generally, but can be more).  Casting spells at a Foci or Essence flow will generally net a small bonus (and add a boost to the spell as well).

 

There are also many things which can inhibit spell casting.  Null zones which is completely devoid of the background Essence will prevent spellcasting altogether.  Encumbrance penalties apply to spellcasting, especially the wearing of armor (it is binding, restricts movement which interferes with gestures, metal interferes with the channeling of background Essence and prevents concentration)  Being unable to fulfill a Gestures or Incantation limitation does not automatically cancel a spell, but trying to cast one without fulfilling said Limitation is a -3 skill penalty (-6 if both cannot be fulfilled!), environmental penalties may apply as well (watch out for Change Environment!)

 

There's so much more to this.  Perhaps I will post more later.

[Nemblamenchisus]

Nice implementation of Rolemaster magic. I've thought of doing something similar, even starting to recreate some of the Spell Law lists in Hero. However, that would be a huge project to complete.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Nice implementation of Rolemaster magic. I've thought of doing something similar, even starting to recreate some of the Spell Law lists in Hero. However, that would be a huge project to complete.

Thanks.

 

I worked this out because Shadow World is my favorite campaign setting, and I wanted to use it with Fantasy Hero, but the Essence/Channeling/Mentalism system is so ingrained in the setting.

 

When it comes to writing up the spell lists, I kind of go halfway between the RM spell lists and FH magic colleges concept. RM spell lists include a lot, and I mean a LOT, of redundancy. The same spell is repeated usually at least 3 times throughout the list, simply representing higher level versions of the same spell increasing range, area of effect or damage/effect. This is not necessary in HERO because as the character puts more points into their Spell Pool, they can increase the power of each individual spell slot which represents learning higher powered versions of the spell, or simply gaining more magical power.

 

So I write up each individual spell once, which cuts down on the number of spells considerably.

 

And even then, it's still a daunting task. So I often reference the Fantasy Hero Grimoire which helps cut down on the work quite a bit. Then I will write up the more unique Shadow World specific magical spells such as Essence manipulation or Fatal Channelings and Absolution etc.