Spice-up my mentalist

[bigdamnhero]

Thinking about this some more: I think massey's point about mental entangles being "cheap shots" highlights the problem with a lot of mental powers: they're often too powerful against characters who don't buy up their EGO & MD, and nearly useless against characters that do buy them. Added to that is the All Or Nothing nature of many mental attacks - "make you Breakout Roll and you're fine; fail it and you're my complete mental slave" - can make them narratively unsatisfying, if not downright annoying.

 

I try to run mental powers a little more loosely. So if an attacker doesn't quite roll a strong enough effect to make you jump off the roof, he might still be able to make you lose a Phase walking over to the edge and balancing on the parapet. Similarly if your Breakout Roll isn't quite enough to break free, but you made your regular EGO Roll, you might be able to reduce the effects slightly: maybe you still jump, but you're able to target your jump so you bounce off an awning and the trash pile breaks your fall. IIRC there was a section on that in Ultimate Mentalist somewhere, but I can't remember if any of it made it into the 6ed core rules.

 

Another way to play with mental entangles to make them more fun and less unbalanced is to limit them, like Old Man suggested. Maybe the entangle only locks out the target's energy blast powers, forcing them to rely on their martial arts for a couple of phases. Or maybe it only locks out the powers the mentalist knows about, and the target can still use any powers the mentalist hasn't seen yet. Or it locks out their movement powers, but they can still shoot. Or whatever.

[massey]

Right, the problem with a Mental Entangle is that if you buy up a decent Def for it, it's almost impossible for a character with a normal Ego to get out.  Even a guy with an 18 Ego, a pretty good stat for non-mentalists, can get waylaid by a 60 active point mental attack.  4 or 5 Def on that Entangle and you've got an almost guaranteed one-shot for most characters.

[Old Man]

Mental Entangle is too cheap.  That's the problem.  Champions characters often have their STR bought up at least a little, and even if they don't, there's usually creative ways to wiggle out of a physical Entangle or help someone else get out of one.

 

Conversely most players don't buy up their character's EGO by much if at all; it's expensive and unfun to do so and it rarely clearly supports the character concept.  So a 60-point attack on a PC's normal-range stat is gonna mess them up.  You have to let characters push EGO or otherwise creatively counter the special effect in order to figure a way out of a ME.  Or increase the price, or require all MEs be bought with Ablative, or something.

[Black Ops]

OP I am unsure what you want as a Spice up?

Powers?

Flavor?

[Enforcer84]

Spice up a mentalist?

 

Melange. Of course.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says, The Spice must Flow.

Make them a telekinetic that only affects certain flora?

 

The Paprikinetic 

[BoloOfEarth]

Right, the problem with a Mental Entangle is that if you buy up a decent Def for it, it's almost impossible for a character with a normal Ego to get out.  Even a guy with an 18 Ego, a pretty good stat for non-mentalists, can get waylaid by a 60 active point mental attack.  4 or 5 Def on that Entangle and you've got an almost guaranteed one-shot for most characters.

 

Given that you have at least +1 1/4 Advantages to make a mental Entangle, a 60-point version would only have 26.7 base points.  And with the RAW cap of max defense = 2x the BODY dice, you're maxing out at 2d6, 4 MD.*  So yeah, agreed, pretty tough to break through even with an 18 EGO.  (And 6ED explicitly allows pushing of EGO for breaking out of a mental entangle, and with an average of only 2 BODY, by pushing his EGO the target should be able to break free in a few Phases.)  Assuming the enemy mentalist has a similar level of Mental Blast (60 points = 6d6, or maybe 4d6 AP), it could be gone in a single Phase.

 

(* Caveat that the rules aren't crystal clear on how much base Mental Defense the attack gets.  Does a 2d6 Entangle start with 4 MD (adding base PD and ED together), or 2 MD (which is what I use)?)

 

Mental Entangle is too cheap.  That's the problem.  Champions characters often have their STR bought up at least a little, and even if they don't, there's usually creative ways to wiggle out of a physical Entangle or help someone else get out of one.

 

Conversely most players don't buy up their character's EGO by much if at all; it's expensive and unfun to do so and it rarely clearly supports the character concept.  So a 60-point attack on a PC's normal-range stat is gonna mess them up.  You have to let characters push EGO or otherwise creatively counter the special effect in order to figure a way out of a ME.  Or increase the price, or require all MEs be bought with Ablative, or something.

 

At 1:1, EGO isn't expensive, but agreed that it isn't always supported in a character concept (though I could see a heroic character saying that he's got to have a decent amount of willpower to go out and face down some of the nasties he encounters fighting crime).  Mainly, extra EGO isn't considered incredibly useful, so it's rarely bought up. 

 

The problem, to me, is that a normal Entangle can be taken down by pretty much any one of the target's friends, but the mental Entangle can only be taken down by the target or another mentalist.  And the target rarely has anything but his base EGO to break free, whereas with a normal Entangle he can typically use some other attack power against the Entangle, in addition to his STR.

[Hugh Neilson]

Right, the problem with a Mental Entangle is that if you buy up a decent Def for it, it's almost impossible for a character with a normal Ego to get out.  Even a guy with an 18 Ego, a pretty good stat for non-mentalists, can get waylaid by a 60 active point mental attack.  4 or 5 Def on that Entangle and you've got an almost guaranteed one-shot for most characters.

 

6d6/6 DEF is pretty unlikely for Joe Normal to wiggle out of as well. The key difference, as cited elsewhere, is that many characters just dump EGO at 10, so they have a tough time breaking out.

 

And with the RAW cap of max defense = 2x the BODY dice, you're maxing out at 2d6, 4 MD.*  So yeah, agreed, pretty tough to break through even with an 18 EGO.

So restrict the optimizer/munchkin approach of maxing out defense and require that be bought as 3d6, 3 DEF (which is still over 60 AP). At least that 3.5d6 chips away, with no Push required.

 

At 1:1, EGO isn't expensive, but agreed that it isn't always supported in a character concept (though I could see a heroic character saying that he's got to have a decent amount of willpower to go out and face down some of the nasties he encounters fighting crime).  Mainly, extra EGO isn't considered incredibly useful, so it's rarely bought up.

Well, I guess if Heroes are weak-willed, easily pushed around individuals, it need not be bought up. I've thought a few times that PRE should not defend against PRE attacks, only provide the "attack stat", and EGO should be the defense. That would eliminate a lot of those 10 EGO's (and you could dump PRE and just not be all that impressive).

 

Normal Entagles are pretty potent if everyone goes for the cost break of OAF, Restrainable or Gestures. A mix of strengths and weaknesses tends to help a lot.

 

To both the all or nothing and spice it up approach, use Cumulative. Actually, I like the idea of all mental powers being 10 points per 1d6, but Cumulative (maybe unlimited Cumulative). Suddenly they are not all or nothing, typically require a few hits to take the target out of the battle, but can be "set" at a tough breakout roll.

[Cinniuint]

Regarding entangles: players can easily be taught the foolishness of all having the same weakness. And I have seen characters in fiction helped out of mental entangles on many occasions through the use of shouting, face slaps and even kisses. If the villain has compatriots, they,too, might risk damaging the entangle by attacking the character.

 

Other spice: skill levels, usable by others. This can be very powerful, but it gets expensive fast since it has to be bought with at least 5 point levels.

 

In a similar vein: Int boost, usable on others

 

And something completely different: a variable psychological limitation acquired from recent telepathy subjects. Please note that the subject may have long since come to terms with the problem, that doesn't mean the mentalist won't be hit by it.

[BoloOfEarth]

Well, I guess if Heroes are weak-willed, easily pushed around individuals, it need not be bought up. I've thought a few times that PRE should not defend against PRE attacks, only provide the "attack stat", and EGO should be the defense. That would eliminate a lot of those 10 EGO's (and you could dump PRE and just not be all that impressive).

 

Interesting idea on only EGO defending against PRE attacks, instead of the higher of EGO or PRE. 

 

The fact of the matter is, there are skills that benefit from an increased PRE, but little benefit from an increased EGO.  When characters really should buy that up, if for no other reason than to fit concept. 

 

Example from my current Champions game:  the team brick is Honey Badger (catch phrase:  "Honey Badger don't care"), who has a 13 EGO and no Mental Defense  He's already been the (successful) target of several mental illusions, and I expect he'll simply buy Mental Defense with XP rather than buying his EGO higher.

[Hugh Neilson]

Interesting idea on only EGO defending against PRE attacks, instead of the higher of EGO or PRE.

The idea came largely around wrapping my head around pricing of DEX in 6e (is it really worth 2 point?). Each of DEX, INT and PRE add to a large group of skills, and provide a second benefit (initiative, PER and PRE attack/defense, respectively). While my initial thought was that DE should be 1 point, I eventually came around to the belief PRE and INT should be bumped to 2 points. +1 to all skills based on the stat would then be worth 5 points (with skill levels scaling down), and the other benefit would be the other 5 points (+5 Lightning Reflexes, +1 to all PER rolls and +1d6 PRE attack, respectively). But PRE gives you too much. And EGO doesn't give a lot, so leave it at 1 point, and allow +2 to EGO rolls for 5 points, or +10 PRE defense for 5 points (oh, look - the defense costs less than the attack, like we say it should!).

 

Anyway, a long way off spicing up that Mentalist - although some extra PRE as he always subtly manipulated other minds around him would be a reasonable purchase.

[massey]

 

6d6/6 DEF is pretty unlikely for Joe Normal to wiggle out of as well. The key difference, as cited elsewhere, is that many characters just dump EGO at 10, so they have a tough time breaking out.

 

 

 

Joe Normal isn't the problem.  A standard superhero can blast his way out of a 6D6/6 Def Entangle usually in one shot.

 

Do you want all your heroes running around with 30 Ego?  Because that's the only real solution to Mental Entangle.  All that does is nerf the rest of the mental powers, which are based around a normal superhero target having an Ego in the 10-20 range.

[Hugh Neilson]

To the Mental Paralysis, first off, I am unclear why +2 Mental Defense should cost 3 points. +1 PD and +1 ED costs 5, and gives one Defense to the Entangle. Mental Paralysis should simply convert DEF to DEF, and leave the costs alone. That would cap out at 2d6, 3 Defense for 60 AP (or we tell the player he has to have at least as many d6 BOD as defense and the best he can do is 3d6, 2 DEF). I'd also reprice extra DEF higher and extra BOD lower, still summing to 10, for standard entangles, but this drifts well beyond the point.

 

Note that Mental Paralysis is also visible and has standard range modifiers, something Mentalists are seldom used to dealing with.

 

An 18 EGO, with no Pushing, will average 3.5 BOD. It will take some time to get out of 2d6/4 DEF (again, with no pushing), a turn or so to get out of 2d6/3 DEF, I expect, and a couple of phases if we go with 3d6, 2 DEF.

 

By the way, the fact that a standard entangle is broken in a single attack is why no one uses them against other Supers. They get used as a "gotcha" to drop DCV temporarily, but that's not the kind of power we really need in game often. If it worked for a couple of phases, Entangle would be good for something.

 

So I don't think every character needs to be able to blow away the entangle in a single shot, meaning they don't need a 30 Ego.

 

Now, on that 30 Ego - a +10 effect roll is still achieved on average, so influence remains possible. But, as noted above, I'd be good with mental powers at 10 points per die, but cumulative. Now you can build up that +30 effect over time, and keep hitting the target to drag those breakout rolls down. Getting a 30 EGO to a +30 effect and an 8- breakout requires 95 points of effect, which is 5 6d6 hits. But getting the same result on a 20 EGO character requires 75 points (4 hits) and even some 8 EGO pushover requires three hits. Of course, one more hit pushes Breakout down to a 3 or 4!

 

So we'd avoid the binary "it's perfect or fails utterly" aspect of mental powers, instead requiring a few hits to wear the target down, just like attacking to KO.

[Mister E]

Anyway, a long way off spicing up that Mentalist - although some extra PRE as he always subtly manipulated other minds around him would be a reasonable purchase.

[edit]:

 

"De-Spirit": 60 PRE, Attacks Against Alternate Characteristic (EGO rather than PRE; +1/4)(75 active pts); Only For PRE Attacks (-1/2). Total cost: 50 pts.

[Hugh Neilson]

Mr. E, I'd give that "EGO rather than PRE" an advantage value. Given PRE attacks normally work against the greater of PRE and EGO, this will never be a disadvantage, and often provide an advantage (especially given average PRE in Supers games, at least, tends to be higher than average EGO). +1/4 feels right - AP would cut the "defense" in half, and I suspect this will have a similar or lesser effect on average.

[Mister E]

Sure. Thanks. Made the change. Very nice.

[steriaca]

Remember, the extra +1 advantage on Autofire for attacks which do not have a common defense? You can required that advantage for ANY attack which is too good (like Entangle Based On ECV, for example). Source: The Advance Players Guide (I forgot which one).

[massey]

To the Mental Paralysis, first off, I am unclear why +2 Mental Defense should cost 3 points. +1 PD and +1 ED costs 5, and gives one Defense to the Entangle. Mental Paralysis should simply convert DEF to DEF, and leave the costs alone. That would cap out at 2d6, 3 Defense for 60 AP (or we tell the player he has to have at least as many d6 BOD as defense and the best he can do is 3d6, 2 DEF). I'd also reprice extra DEF higher and extra BOD lower, still summing to 10, for standard entangles, but this drifts well beyond the point.

 

Note that Mental Paralysis is also visible and has standard range modifiers, something Mentalists are seldom used to dealing with.

 

An 18 EGO, with no Pushing, will average 3.5 BOD. It will take some time to get out of 2d6/4 DEF (again, with no pushing), a turn or so to get out of 2d6/3 DEF, I expect, and a couple of phases if we go with 3d6, 2 DEF.

 

By the way, the fact that a standard entangle is broken in a single attack is why no one uses them against other Supers. They get used as a "gotcha" to drop DCV temporarily, but that's not the kind of power we really need in game often. If it worked for a couple of phases, Entangle would be good for something.

 

So I don't think every character needs to be able to blow away the entangle in a single shot, meaning they don't need a 30 Ego.

 

Now, on that 30 Ego - a +10 effect roll is still achieved on average, so influence remains possible. But, as noted above, I'd be good with mental powers at 10 points per die, but cumulative. Now you can build up that +30 effect over time, and keep hitting the target to drag those breakout rolls down. Getting a 30 EGO to a +30 effect and an 8- breakout requires 95 points of effect, which is 5 6d6 hits. But getting the same result on a 20 EGO character requires 75 points (4 hits) and even some 8 EGO pushover requires three hits. Of course, one more hit pushes Breakout down to a 3 or 4!

 

So we'd avoid the binary "it's perfect or fails utterly" aspect of mental powers, instead requiring a few hits to wear the target down, just like attacking to KO.

 

Well, now you're talking about rewriting most of the mental powers, so I don't think that's a fair comparison.  You can talk about normal Entangles being ineffective, but that's a whole different discussion.  The fact is, you're talking about one particular power that is way more effective than every other mental power and more effective than a traditional Entangle.  You can say "most characters shouldn't be able to get out of it in one shot", but players aren't going to see it that way.

[steriaca]

The whole thing is 'subject to the gamemaster'. In other words, if the GM feals a combo of advantages is to powerful, he can require an another advantage to be added (a +1, going by the Advance Players Guide). It is all up to whoever is the GM. And, being from an optional book, is not 'universal'. It does solve problems without outlawing the whole bunch of advantage combinations.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, now you're talking about rewriting most of the mental powers, so I don't think that's a fair comparison.

Actually, I'm talking about changing the defaults - cumulative didn't vanish in 6e, did it?

 

Part of the problem with mental powers is that they can be major sources of frustration for players. Their own powers fail, or their characters are removed from their control by opposing mental powers.

 

I don't think the issue is "mental paralysis", though. Being unaffected by typical damage does the trick. It need not be EGO. Sub in INT or BOD and see how well that works (although mental paralysis just makes up Ego instead of STR for +1/4). How about we make the Entangle take no damage from attacks (+1). Let's buy 1d6 for 10 points, then 2d6 extra BOD for 10 points each and +4 PD at 10 points. That's 3d6 Entangle, 5 PD not affected by other attacks. That should be fun for non-Bricks.

[massey]

"No damage from attacks" just means you can shoot the guy who is Entangled without it being damaged. You can still target the Entangle itself with a normal attack, unless they changed it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Mental Paralysis is a +3/4 version of "takes no damage from attacks" because it still takes damage from mental attacks. [6eV1p217]

 

At the +1 level, "takes no damage from attacks" means "an Entangle cannot be attacked, damaged, or affected by outside attackers at all — only the victim can break free, and he can only apply his STR (or EGO, for Mental Paralysis Entangles) to break out." A reasonably common and obvious means of removing the entangle is also required. Examples noted are antidotes to a paralytic poison, counterspells for a "hold person" type spell, etc. This is referred to as a "caution sign" power, in some cases even a "stop sign".

 

So you can target the entangle, I suppose, but it will not be damaged - only the entangled person will.

[massey]

That's different in 6th, then.

[BoloOfEarth]

Mental Paralysis is a +3/4 version of "takes no damage from attacks" because it still takes damage from mental attacks. [6eV1p217]

 

At the +1 level, "takes no damage from attacks" means "an Entangle cannot be attacked, damaged, or affected by outside attackers at all — only the victim can break free, and he can only apply his STR (or EGO, for Mental Paralysis Entangles) to break out." A reasonably common and obvious means of removing the entangle is also required. Examples noted are antidotes to a paralytic poison, counterspells for a "hold person" type spell, etc. This is referred to as a "caution sign" power, in some cases even a "stop sign".

 

So you can target the entangle, I suppose, but it will not be damaged - only the entangled person will.

Hmmmm... a GM might rule that given the relative rarity of mental powers, a Mental Paralysis similarly requires a reasonably common and obvious means of removing the entangle.  An electric shock, say, or slapping / splashing cold water in the face.

[BoloOfEarth]

"No damage from attacks" just means you can shoot the guy who is Entangled without it being damaged. You can still target the Entangle itself with a normal attack, unless they changed it.

 

 

Mental Paralysis is a +3/4 version of "takes no damage from attacks" because it still takes damage from mental attacks. [6eV1p217]

 

At the +1 level, "takes no damage from attacks" means "an Entangle cannot be attacked, damaged, or affected by outside attackers at all — only the victim can break free, and he can only apply his STR (or EGO, for Mental Paralysis Entangles) to break out." A reasonably common and obvious means of removing the entangle is also required. Examples noted are antidotes to a paralytic poison, counterspells for a "hold person" type spell, etc. This is referred to as a "caution sign" power, in some cases even a "stop sign".

 

So you can target the entangle, I suppose, but it will not be damaged - only the entangled person will.

 

In 6th, there is also the +1/2 level that is basically what Massey was talking about.  So they didn't change it, so much as add a new level (or two) to it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yup - I only refrerenced the +1 version as it's the one that eliminates damage from outside sources (and is the closest to Mental Paralysis rules). It seems reasonable to apply the "reasonably common means of escape" rule to Mental Paralysis.