How would you build...

[eepjr24]

Going through the 5e D&D spells and hit one that is an interesting problem in Hero. I can think of some ways to build it, but they would be quite expensive and I am keeping 1st level spells to 30 active points or less. Would love to hear ideas if anyone has them.

 

Sanctuary:

 

You ward a creature within range against attack. Until the spell ends, any creature who targets the warded creature with an attack or a harmful spell must first make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature must choose a new target or lose the attack or spell. This spell doesn't protect the warded creature from area effects, such as the explosion of a fireball.

 

If the warded creature makes an attack or casts a spell that affects an enemy creature, this spell ends.

 

 

 

 

[Maccabe]

You failed to mention which edition you wanted to use, however in CHAMPIONS COMPLETE they have INVISIBILITY with a limitation;ONLY WHEN NOT ATTACKING (-1/2 Lim) maybe a version of that would help??

 

Or maybe even MIND CONTROL; " Do not attack me"

[eepjr24]

Hero 6e, sorry. 5e concepts are fine as well though, I have not found anything I could not convert between the two yet.

 

Invisibility was a thought, may end up with it. Mind Control I think it will be hard to fit into a large enough AOE (Fantasy setting, so probably long bow is the worst range I need to worry about) and still keep the effect dice high enough to matter. I will play with the numbers some.

 

- E

[Tholomyes]

Mind Control I think it will be hard to fit into a large enough AOE (Fantasy setting, so probably long bow is the worst range I need to worry about) and still keep the effect dice high enough to matter. I will play with the numbers some.

 

- E

 

One thing to consider is, if it's meant to be a truly universal thing, it might be acceptable to use the Megascale advantage. I know many GMs are (perhaps rightfully) suspect about megascale especially in heroic games, but I think that if the intent is to do something like this, it isn't too unreasonable, especially given that it's not a power that can be used offensively.

[mallet]

Maybe Desoldifictation, Usable On Others and then a custom limitations (something like only works if attacker succeeds on an Ego roll, & Only active as long as target doesn't attack, & Not vs AOE attacks), plus other "regular" limitations like Gestures, Incantations, Can't pass through solid objects, etc... but that would def be above your Active Point cap. 

[L. Marcus]

Any way you do it, I think you would see that Active Points Cap in the rear view mirror. As for Mind Control, one would need 6d6 at least -- that's thirty points right there, and then there's Area Of Effect on top of that.

[eepjr24]

Yeah, I ended up deciding invisibility was the closest option and went with that. I don't have to have every effect exactly, but most of them are easy enough to model and just wanted to make sure I was not missing some alternative way to construct it. If it does not work out in play I will scrap it. =)

 

Anyone have any good ideas for Goodberry??? The food part is easy, but the healing broken up into 10 pieces seems difficult to do for a reasonable AP.

 

 

Up to ten berries appear in your hand and are infused with magic for the duration. A creature can use it's action to eat one berry. Eating a berry restores 1 hit point and the berry provides enough nourishment to sustain a creature for one day.

 

The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell.

 

 

 

- E

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

Life Support: Need Not Eat  UBO with a time limit of 24 hours. 

[eepjr24]

Life Support: Need Not Eat  UBO with a time limit of 24 hours. 

I said the food part was easy, I was looking for ideas on the healing aspect. One person can heal 10 Body from eating all 10 or 10 people could heal 1 body each or any combination.

[L. Marcus]

Heal BODY on Charges, perhaps a half-die with Standard Effect.

[massey]

The problem with trying to duplicate how D&D does things in Hero, is that it has a different design philosophy.  D&D is not afraid of absolute effects.  A death spell will kill you outright, regardless of how many hit points you have, if you fail a saving throw.  Of course, if you're really tough, you're not likely to fail that saving throw.  The sanctuary spell will prevent anyone, even a red dragon, from attacking someone if they fail a will save.  Of course, the red dragon basically isn't gonna fail it.

 

When you convert from a system like D&D, especially one that uses a lot of absolute effects, you really shouldn't try to duplicate the way the spell works exactly.  Instead, look and see what the purpose of the spell is, and how it is normally used.

 

Sanctuary is a level 1 spell.  I haven't ever played D&D 5th (I haven't played 4th either), but I presume the saving throw for a lvl 1 spell didn't get really really hard since I last played.  So you've got a spell that makes low level attackers less effective.  Realistically, you aren't going to use it once you get to 4th or 5th level, because your opponents will make their save too often.  So it's really just good goblin/orc protection, that level of threat.  So how to build this?  This is what I'd do:

 

Sanctuary

24 PD Force Field, Usable By Others (+1/4) -- 30 Active Points

Subject may not attack (-1)

Not if attacker makes Ego Roll at -2 (-1/2)

Gestures & Incantations (-1/2)

Not vs area effect attacks or "undirected" damage (-1/2)

Not vs attacks of greater than 10 damage classes (-1/2)

Real cost: 8 pts

 

The last limitation is designed to represent powerful D&D creatures who would have great saves because of their hit dice, but in Hero rules don't necessarily have high Ego scores.  They should be able to blast through the spell with no problem.

[Christopher R Taylor]

A couple ways.  The easiest is invisibility, not invisible to friends (maybe a +1/4 advantage).  You're still there, still can take damage, just not perceptible for bad guys to attack.

 

Other, more expensive builds are out there, probably mind control is the most effective but very expensive version.

[Lucius]

Goodberry: (Total: 14 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Regeneration (1 BODY per Minute) (14 Active Points); IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), 12 Charges (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

[eepjr24]

Goodberry: (Total: 14 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Regeneration (1 BODY per Minute) (14 Active Points); IIF Expendable (Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), 12 Charges (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

I like the simplicity, but dislike that it would be self only (the spells berries can be handed to anyone). And 6e specifically forbids usable by others on regeneration.

 

Also, the spell will likely end up in a multipower, so if I build it at all it might have to be with clips. Maybe something like:

 

1/2d6 Simplified Healing, Standard Effect: 1 Body, 2 Stun, Reduced reuse: 1/Turn (+1 1/4), 8 Clips of 10 Charges each (+1/4), Autofire:10 (+1), Trigger: Eat Berry (+1/4) (19 Active Points), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time: Full Phase, Delayed Phase (-3/4), Restrainable (-1/4) (8 Real Cost)

 

Does that seem broken to anyone? Looks okay to me, but when you are building things, they almost always do.

 

- E

[Lucius]

I like the simplicity, but dislike that it would be self only (the spells berries can be handed to anyone). And 6e specifically forbids usable by others on regeneration.- E

It's on a Focus. Unless the Focus is defined as personal, you can give the berries to anyone and they work.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Feeding a berry to a palindromedary

[Christopher R Taylor]

Exactly, its an end-around the rules that I used in the Codex several times.  Many Shaman spells involve a fetish or totem which they can hand to anyone, or keep themselves.  They're built as an OAF since anyone can grab and use or gain benefit from the item as long as the spell lasts.

 

Its like building a Regeneration Gun.  Anyone can grab it and pull the trigger.

[eepjr24]

I guess the other bit that bothered me is that you are creating a focus with the spell, not imbuing it with magic like in fetish or totem or rune magic. Semantics, probably, because it is expendable. But I can see someone extending the logic to build an RKA with the Focus advantage and 1 charge that they interpret as creating one magic sword a day. 

[Lucius]

I guess the other bit that bothered me is that you are creating a focus with the spell, not imbuing it with magic like in fetish or totem or rune magic. Semantics, probably, because it is expendable. But I can see someone extending the logic to build an RKA with the Focus advantage and 1 charge that they interpret as creating one magic sword a day.

....you have a very good point, and I am not so clever as I think I am.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I'm not even as clever as I really am.

[Christopher R Taylor]

 But I can see someone extending the logic to build an RKA with the Focus advantage and 1 charge that they interpret as creating one magic sword a day. 

 

Its no different than someone building a gun out of steel and other parts, its just done with  magic, so its faster.

 

However, the magical one only exists as long as the caster maintains the magic that constructs it (in my campaign at least, since all spells must at least cost END to start).  I would suggest that 1/day focus sword wouldn't work because you'd be creating a focus that only dealt damage once per day: once per day you can use the power.

[freddysawyer]

The problem with trying to duplicate how D&D does things in Hero, is that it has a different design philosophy.  D&D is not afraid of absolute effects.  A death spell will kill you outright, regardless of how many hit points you have, if you fail a saving throw.  Of course, if you're really tough, you're not likely to fail that saving throw.  The sanctuary spell will prevent anyone, even a red dragon, from attacking someone if they fail a will save.  Of course, the red dragon basically isn't gonna fail it.

 

When you convert from a system like D&D, especially one that uses a lot of absolute effects, you really shouldn't try to duplicate the way the spell works exactly.  Instead, look and see what the purpose of the spell is, and how it is normally used.

 

Sanctuary is a level 1 spell.  I haven't ever played D&D 5th (I haven't played 4th either), but I presume the saving throw for a lvl 1 spell didn't get really really hard since I last played.  So you've got a spell that makes low level attackers less effective.  Realistically, you aren't going to use it once you get to 4th or 5th level, because your opponents will make their save too often.  So it's really just good goblin/orc protection, that level of threat.  So how to build this?  This is what I'd do:

 

Sanctuary

24 PD Force Field, Usable By Others (+1/4) -- 30 Active Points

Subject may not attack (-1)

Not if attacker makes Ego Roll at -2 (-1/2)

Gestures & Incantations (-1/2)

Not vs area effect attacks or "undirected" damage (-1/2)

Not vs attacks of greater than 10 damage classes (-1/2)

Real cost: 8 pts

 

The last limitation is designed to represent powerful D&D creatures who would have great saves because of their hit dice, but in Hero rules don't necessarily have high Ego scores.  They should be able to blast through the spell with no problem.

Good explanation! Thanks

[NuSoardGraphite]

This is an area effect mind control. Anyone with the intention of attacking the warded character enters the AoE, they get hit with an Xd6 mind control effect, from which they must make a breakout roll in order to attack the character (this simulates the D&D Wisdom check). The order is "Attack someone else!" Which usually only needs and Ego+ or Ego+10 to succeed. If the warded character is the only combatant visible, it might need Ego+20 to succeed, and if successful, the enemy will simply wander off.

[eepjr24]

I think you might have missed the 30 AP limit. =)

[NuSoardGraphite]

I think you might have missed the 30 AP limit. =)

Yeah, that makes it more difficult.

 

The effect is definitely a mental one. That is also a powerful effect. To write it up properly you are likely going to need more than 30ap for it to be effective. Essentially it needs to be area of effect, which drastically increases the AP.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Another option is extra dice of Presence Attack (5pts per D6) on a trigger. I think something like this can fit within 30ap. It wont work on the strong willed, but then again I am assuming the 1st level D&D equivelent isnt meant to either.

[eepjr24]

Yep, PRE would probably be doable. I think I went with Invisibility on the build, it seemed most effective.

 

- E