How to replicate 6e Damage over Time using 5ER rules?

[Surrealone]

I've been struggling with how to properly build a 1d6 drain that in 6E would entail a DoT advantage where defenses apply only once and the damage is done in 6 increments at a rate of one per 2 segments.

 

I keep coming up empty-handed because a continuous, uncontrolled power would drain on the user's phases, not in segmented fashion.

 

Can anyone think of a way to build out this effect using 5ER rules without increasing the diceage to compensate for the lack of segmented approach?

[Grailknight]

Use Gradual Effect, not perfect but you can see the DoT precursors. Or just bring in DoT from 6th.

[Surrealone]

I think gradual effect works only if I increase the diceage and then apply the gradual effect limitation.  I'm specifically trying to avoid upping the diceage...

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I'd just import DOT, or move to 6th.

[Vondy]

Hero has long allowed for the use of custom advantages and limitations.

 

So... why not just use Damage Over Time as written?

 

I have noticed a psychological shift as the rules have become more comprehensive, lawyer-think-laden, and verbose.

 

Namely, that people have become progressively less disposed to use custom anything.

 

And, yet, in 4e the system was terse enough, and presented a pared down list of option, that almost demanded them.

 

Custom modifiers are traditional. True Blue Heroes love them. Back-port it, call it a custom limitation, and be done with it.

[Mister E]

Summon something that drains on a SPD of 12.

[Surrealone]

Yeah I'd just import DOT, or move to 6th.

 

 

Hero has long allowed for the use of custom advantages and limitations.

 

So... why not just use Damage Over Time as written?

 

I have noticed a psychological shift as the rules have become more comprehensive, lawyer-think-laden, and verbose.

 

Namely, that people have become progressively less disposed to use custom anything.

 

And, yet, in 4e the system was terse enough, and presented a pared down list of option, that almost demanded them.

 

Custom modifiers are traditional. True Blue Heroes love them. Back-port it, call it a custom limitation, and be done with it.

 

 

Use Gradual Effect, not perfect but you can see the DoT precursors. Or just bring in DoT from 6th.

 

 

To all of the above:

Why not import DOT?  Because I'm not the GM and my GM has been extremely resistant to the consideration of 6E mechanics -- specifically citing it is because he doesn't own the hardcopy books, doesn't want to foot the 150+ dollar bill to acquire them, won't settle for just PDF's, and also doesn't want to invest time learning the delta.  Despite me loaning him my hardcopy of Champions Complete to peruse for the last two months, he has found it insufficient -- and, frankly, I tend to agree since CC is missing things that it, itself, references!

 

It's been frustrating, as I did an exhaustive analysis of 5ER and 6E differences which I documented and provided to all within the group -- and a number were interested.  Aside from the hexes to meters change and the character creation cost inflation of 6E, I see huge improvements in 6E, and those downsides are tolerable (to me).

 

In retrospect, my GM apparently felt as if I were foisting 6E on him, and despite explaining that I was simply exploring potential improvements and providing data for input by the entire group, he seems to have taken such exploration as an affront.  Thus, I'm not going to push the issue ... and remain stuck with 5ER while a purpose-built DOT advantage exists in 6E. Annoying!

[Christopher R Taylor]

Might be worth printing off the salient pages from the pdf for him to examine, DOT/AVAD/ACV/AE changes at least.  Unless you've tried that and he just feels pressured, then I agree, work with what you got.

[Hyper-Man]

Have you explored using Drain's cousin Suppress?  You might be able to use Continuing Charges combined with a custom Trigger Advantage to automatically 'light up' a new charge every subsequent time interval desired.  Uncontrolled would probably still be needed as well.

 

I've run into something like this with HERO GM's on more than one occasion. I think it comes from their desire to have perfect rules knowledge at the game table that doesn't require referencing any document.  They want to keep the 'game' moving once started and don't want to have to stop play to look something up, especially if it's not something they are already familiar with based on their own set of books.  Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if some D&D3.x/Pathfinder GM's limit what splat-books* are allowed in their games for similar reasons. I can't fault them for their good intentions. In the case of HERO it is frustrating from a player's perspective though with all the 'build anything' buzzwords on the books.  But I look at it from the perspective of "at least they are willing to run the game, who am I to complain too much on how they decide to do it?" there has to be a little give and take.

 

*I hope I'm using that term correctly.

 

HM

[bigbywolfe]

To all of the above:

Why not import DOT?  Because I'm not the GM and my GM has been extremely resistant to the consideration of 6E mechanics -- specifically citing it is because he doesn't own the hardcopy books, doesn't want to foot the 150+ dollar bill to acquire them, won't settle for just PDF's, and also doesn't want to invest time learning the delta.  Despite me loaning him my hardcopy of Champions Complete to peruse for the last two months, he has found it insufficient -- and, frankly, I tend to agree since CC is missing things that it, itself, references!

 

Champions/Fantasy Complete does not cost "150+ dollar"s and neither do the 6E PDFs so that claim is silly at best.

 

What do you claim CC is "missing...that it, itself references!" 

[ghost-angel]

Damage Over Time, if I recall, evolved out of a series of convoluted builds involved Continuous, Gradual Effect, and occasionally Extra Time (Delayed Onset), I can't remember if there were any custom advantages or limitations involved, if there are you can easily create them.

 

As Vondy said; there's a long tradition of creating Advantages & Limitations to suit your campaigns needs; 5ER has a chapter on this in the back on altering the system. If you can't get satisfaction with hobbling together a series of other Power Modifiers.

[HeroGM]

Splat books?

[eepjr24]

Summon something that drains on a SPD of 12.

 

That's the second or third time I have seen you suggest Summon for something it is clearly not suited for. The rules pretty specifically call this out as not allowed.

 

6e1 p288

 

Characters may not use Summon to substitute for another Power. For example, he cannot Summon a group of swords and hand them out to his friends; that’s HKA, Usable By Others. As always, common sense, dramatic sense, and the GM’s discretion apply.

[Surrealone]

Have you explored using Drain's cousin Suppress?  You might be able to use Continuing Charges combined with a custom Trigger Advantage to automatically 'light up' a new charge every subsequent time interval desired.  Uncontrolled would probably still be needed as well.

 

I've run into something like this with HERO GM's on more than one occasion. I think it comes from their desire to have perfect rules knowledge at the game table that doesn't require referencing any document.  They want to keep the 'game' moving once started and don't want to have to stop play to look something up, especially if it's not something they are already familiar with based on their own set of books.  Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if some D&D3.x/Pathfinder GM's limit what splat-books* are allowed in their games for similar reasons. I can't fault them for their good intentions. In the case of HERO it is frustrating from a player's perspective though with all the 'build anything' buzzwords on the books.  But I look at it from the perspective of "at least they are willing to run the game, who am I to complain too much on how they decide to do it?" there has to be a little give and take.

 

*I hope I'm using that term correctly.

 

HM

Right now I'm looking at extending the Gradual Effect limitation from a limitation to an advantage.  At its lowest (-1/4) level, Gradual Effect is a post-seg-12 tick.  I WAS going to see about scaling Gradual Effect's time chart into a custom advantage (Segmented Effect?) to get its ticks to an every other segment level -- basically a poor man's, 5ER DOT.    However, a Continuous/Uncontrolled/Triggered power may make a LOT more sense, so I'll explore that, first.  Much thanks for the suggestion/idea!

 

 

Champions/Fantasy Complete does not cost "150+ dollar"s and neither do the 6E PDFs so that claim is silly at best.

 

What do you claim CC is "missing...that it, itself references!" 

Per RAW (Champions Complete, pg 71):

"Characters who perceive an Image may attempt a PER Roll, modified by any purchased penalties and any bonuses for the complexity of the Image (see the Images Complexity Table)"

 

Can you find the Images Complexity Table In Champions Complete?  Searching for 'Images Complexity Table' has no results on my PDF.  It's not listed in the Index.  I can't find it within the Images power description, either.  Can you point me to it within Champions Complete?

 

 

Damage Over Time, if I recall, evolved out of a series of convoluted builds involved Continuous, Gradual Effect, and occasionally Extra Time (Delayed Onset), I can't remember if there were any custom advantages or limitations involved, if there are you can easily create them.

 

As Vondy said; there's a long tradition of creating Advantages & Limitations to suit your campaigns needs; 5ER has a chapter on this in the back on altering the system. If you can't get satisfaction with hobbling together a series of other Power Modifiers.

Yea, it's what I'll have to do unless HM's suggestion pans out.

[ghost-angel]

I remembered a bit more, not sure if this will help; but some of the builds that led to DOT were Continuous, Uncontrolled powers with Gradual Effect applied to them; and a little bit of handwavium to get the combination to work as desired.

[Tholomyes]

That's the second or third time I have seen you suggest Summon for something it is clearly not suited for. The rules pretty specifically call this out as not allowed.

 

6e1 p288

 

Interestingly, (while I don't disagree), the champions powers book breaks this rule and barely makes mention of it, with the "nega-beam"

[Hyper-Man]

Splat books?

 

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splatbook

Splatbooks are sourcebooks devoted to a particular facet, character class, or fictional faction in a role-playing game, providing additional background details and rules options. For example, a "swords and sorcery" fantasy game might offer splatbooks for each of the races in the setting: humans, dwarves, elves, and others.

 

The first game to use such books was Dungeons & Dragons, though not described as "splatbooks". The term originally rose to describe the sourcebooks published by White Wolf Game Studio for its World of Darkness games. Many of these books were titled using similar patterns: clanbooks in Vampire: The Masquerade, tribebooks for Werewolf: The Apocalypse, tradition books for Mage: The Ascension, and so forth. In newsgroups, these were called *books (the asterisk on a computer keyboard being used as a wildcard character). Since the asterisk is also known as a "splat", this gave rise to the term "splatbook".[1]

 

This term was subsequently used retrospectively for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons books such as The Complete Book of Dwarves and Complete Arcane, or the numerous Codices for Warhammer Fantasy Battle and Warhammer 40,000. By extension, the term "splat" is used for the character class described in a splatbook.

 

 

HM

[Mister E]

That's the second or third time I have seen you suggest Summon for something it is clearly not suited for. The rules pretty specifically call this out as not allowed.

 

6e1 p288

Twice recently.

 

This and the magic missile which I was inspired to suggest by the nega-beam precidence mentioned below.

 

Interestingly, (while I don't disagree), the champions powers book breaks this rule and barely makes mention of it, with the "nega-beam"

Exactly.

 

I don't disagree either. However I am still open minded about Summoning's potential.

 

--

 

As an alternative you could by 12 SPD (Only For Drains; -1) & say it works on top of the character's SPD every segment.

 

--

 

Or you could give 12 SPD (Only For Drains; -1) to a Computer a wearable Automaton or a pocket sized Follower.

[Hugh Neilson]

Yeah I'd just import DOT, or move to 6th.

 

 

I remembered a bit more, not sure if this will help; but some of the builds that led to DOT were Continuous, Uncontrolled powers with Gradual Effect applied to them; and a little bit of handwavium to get the combination to work as desired.

Both of the above highlight why DoT was a new mechanic in 6e. Creating these effects under pre-6e rules just didn't work. Just like a Wizard in Plate and Shield isn't really a viable character in D&D, a DoT construct may not be a viable mechanic in Hero 5e.

 

Pre-6e, I think the build approach should be, as Vondy says, whatever custom advantage seems reasonable in tandem with any modifiers that already fit well to get us part-way there.

[Armitage]

Technically, Damage Over Time was an optional rule for 5e that Steve Long introduced in Digital Hero #47, but that's nit-picking.

 

As several people mentioned, Gradual Effect was how it was done before that, but it required buying a much bigger attack.  For example, 5e cobra venom was 4d6 CON Drain, Gradual Effect (4 minutes, 1d6/Minute) and RKA 5d6, Gradual Effect (5 Minutes, 1d6 per minute).

[Surrealone]

Technically, Damage Over Time was an optional rule for 5e that Steve Long introduced in Digital Hero #47, but that's nit-picking.

 

As several people mentioned, Gradual Effect was how it was done before that, but it required buying a much bigger attack.  For example, 5e cobra venom was 4d6 CON Drain, Gradual Effect (4 minutes, 1d6/Minute) and RKA 5d6, Gradual Effect (5 Minutes, 1d6 per minute).

Actually that nipick may be a big deal because it establishes a 5E version of the DoT advantage ... which is potentially usable based on existing precedent of using material out of other 5E (and earlier) sourcebooks.

 

I've played with a number of Gradual Effect builds at this point and the best I've found is to have one power for the initial delivery of a gradual effect AoE (cone) drain ...and a second, linked drain power that is triggered (set trigger, 0-phase auto-reset) any time the target is affected by a gradual effect drain (of the same type) ... that is continuous, uncontrolled, persistent, at 0 END, gradual effect with 1 segment extra time, with a limitation that restricts the trigger's use to 5 times.

 

​This results in a drain that is delivered as an AoE field ... with a linked power that basically ticks every other segment on affected targets for 5 additional ticks after the initial drain.  It's also a case where the smaller power is the main/delivery mechanism (akin to the example of a small HKA being used to deliver a larger poison power) ... while the larger power is the more expensive of the two -- so it would require GM permission only because of that aspect of the build.

 

I don't really like this and think the 5E DoT approach in Digital Hero #47 is a lot cleaner ... and a HECK of a lot more concise in write-up on a character sheet and/or in Hero Designer.  Ideally it's the best route to go.